Air Force Question Thread

[sohailbutt]

Can somebody please answer my following questions:

1. Will JF-17 have thrust vector control on future blocks of JF-17 like block 4 or 5? (which can give MKI a serious bang for a buck!!!)

2. Will JF-17 also in its future versions would have an engine which does not give out a blue flare out at its back which could be easily seen by the naked eye at night time? (this is very important when low level flights r carried out at night durin wartime, i suppose!!!)

Thank u in advance to anyone who answers my question

 

[x_man]

When I read in PAF histroy book about 1962 grand firing demonstration at Jamrud during my college time, I decided to visit the range with two of my friends.

As we reached there, we introduced ourselves as students of Islmia College Peshawar and told that we want to see the live firing. The airmen informed us that a formation of F-7s is coming within minutes for practice strafing on ground targets. The targets were in front of us.

The airmen gave each of us a cup of tea. We started taking sips of tea and in the meanwhile the F-7s started to roar in the skies above. Before this we had never seen or heard live firing of fighters. An F-7 came in a dive and fired its guns. We were standing close and the sounds were like little thunders, we could hardly hold our cups of tea.

Then I had a chat with the range officer, perhaps a Fl Lt and after some time when I saw that officer in PTV drama "Shahpar", the memories came to my mind again.

However then I heard that Jamrud range has been put out of use. I dont know that the squadrons of peshawar and kamra use which range for practice now.

While at Mianwali and Peshawar in early/mid 90s, I had plenty of chances not only to use the Jamrud Range for firing/bombing but also performed unlimited duties as Range Safety Officer (RSO). Jamrud range was decommissioned because of various domestic and technical reasons…For example it was surrounded by local hutments that were dangerously close and range also became the victim of encroachment all around. There were many instances, where aircrafts missed the local kids by few feet especially in the strafing pattern. I happened many times where we had to call off the live attack because there were kids around the target areas…

Although Airforce tried its best to move them away but they were toooo many…and their fav hobby was to collect the empty 30 m.m / 23 m.m / shells or get hold of as many shells of 25 Ib/6kg bombs…..The empty shells would fetch some good bucks from the local markets………I must say that those kids had some balls of steel….and their timings were very perfect, they knew that how long the next aircraft takes to align itself with the target….and as soon as the first aircraft peeled of after firing, kids would emerge from behind the targets, collect the shells and would disappear before the next fighter is lined up for firing….amazing timings….

Along with these snags, there were few technical reasons too , so after few near misses, finally Airforce decided to abandon this range….A new range was built around Kamra and now its been used by northern bases and sometimes they also use the famous Thal Range near Athara Hazri….

 

[shehbazi2001]

Thank you, X-man, that was a nice reply.

 

[Muradk]

Can somebody please answer my following questions:

1. Will JF-17 have thrust vector control on future blocks of JF-17 like block 4 or 5? (which can give MKI a serious bang for a buck!!!)

2. Will JF-17 also in its future versions would have an engine which does not give out a blue flare out at its back which could be easily seen by the naked eye at night time? (this is very important when low level flights r carried out at night durin wartime, i suppose!!!)

Thank u in advance to anyone who answers my question

Sohail: The engine used for the JF-17 regardless the block the Thrust to power ratio will not be enough for thrust vectoring. It is still not on papers what will happen in the future is totally unpredictable because JF-17 is like a baby its growing and will have potential to grow, But now at this time it will be hard to say.
The blue flare is the after burner , if you are talking about the vapour trail which most people say smoke, That will be fixed in future.

 

[sohailbutt]

Can somebody please answer my following questions:

1. Will JF-17 have thrust vector control on future blocks of JF-17 like block 4 or 5? (which can give MKI a serious bang for a buck!!!)

2. Will JF-17 also in its future versions would have an engine which does not give out a blue flare out at its back which could be easily seen by the naked eye at night time? (this is very important when low level flights r carried out at night durin wartime, i suppose!!!)

Thank u in advance to anyone who answers my question

Sohail: The engine used for the JF-17 regardless the block the Thrust to power ratio will not be enough for thrust vectoring. It is still not on papers what will happen in the future is totally unpredictable because JF-17 is like a baby its growing and will have potential to grow, But now at this time it will be hard to say.
The blue flare is the after burner , if you are talking about the vapour trail which most people say smoke, That will be fixed in future.

Thank u sir, i did not know wut that blue flare was but now i know, actually that question poped up in my mind when i saw Raptor, F-35, Eurofighter, in flight but even those fighters give out flares when they use there afterburners

 

[shehbazi2001]

Here I would like to clarify the THRUST VECTORING.

Everyone thinks that Thrust Vectoring means moving the nozzle or installing special diverters outside nozzle that deflect the exhaust.

A new thrust vectoring Mechanism, which it is believed to be used on EUROFIGHTER is no moving parts at all for the THRUST VECTORING.

It would certainly be better to upload a picture of it. But I shall tell u in easy words. TV is achieved also by extra fluid injection in the nozzle, this way an non symmetric flow field results.

In a normal nozzle, the air flow is symmetric in all directions, but with fluid injection, the air mass flow rate may be different in upper half nozzle than lower half and this way thrust vector is changed upwards or downwards.

 

[shehbazi2001]

The black smoke of the JF-17 Thunder means that the combustion of fuel in the combustion chamber of the jet engine is incomplete.

If u look at the pictures of Mig_29, it also leaves a smoke trail. The same was the case with F-4 Phantoms. Then the engine technology improved and the combustion of fuel was COMPLETE and we saw no smoke in the exhaust.

This smoke is unburnt carbon in the exhaust. The fuel is not fully burnt.

The smoke trail was also the problem with SIDEWINDER untill its AIM-9M version, which has smokeless rocket motor, and this makes it harder to detect.

I would like if all the AIM-9Ls are upgraded to M version too.

 

[x_man]

@ Sohailbutt

If you are referring to the afterburner, the appropriate word for the blue exhaust will either be the Afterburner PLUME or may be Afterburner FLAME....

Flare is something else and are ejected from the aircraft when it’s been fired upon or is threatened by a heat seeking missile...

As far as your query regarding thrust vectoring, as Sir Murad K mentioned in his post, nothing is in black and white for JF-17….

Remember that one cannot just put any variable nozzle engine in any aircraft and make it a thrust vectoring…..there are millions of other design considerations that need to be taken care of. Many USAF/ USN fighters ( F-16 , F-18 , F-15 etc ) did try thrust vectoring in past but after many trials and test , decision was in favour of conventional fix jet nozzles…….Because thrust vectoring is expensive, complex in design and heavy on maintenance…..

JF-17 is still evolving and continue to do so for many years….Chinese might try thrust vectoring on it but will it be a permanent design feature in future models , is anybody’s guess …

 

[x_man]

Check this out.....

Photos: Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29A (9-12A) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

 

[shehbazi2001]

In the famous History Channel program of DOGFIGHTS......I saw an episode "MIG KILLERS OF THE MIDWAY"........in that program they showed a dogfight between Phantom and Migs........and when the Mig was on the six of the Phantom, the Phantom Pilot did a last ditch "back-flip" manouver.........from level flight, he did a sort of sommersault..........first full forward stick+bottom rudder...then pull hard back+top rudder.....

Top and bottom rudder mean left and right rudders or thats different?

and if F-4 Phantom can do this, I want to know if just any fighter can do it?

and how a pilot senses that the bogey is about to fire, when that bogey is on his six? because I heard it a lot during DOGFIGHT shows.....on the occasions when the defending pilot wanted to do evasive maneuver but waited for the moment when bogey is about to fire........

 

[Myth_buster_1]

in one occasion coming from nowshara cantt on the way to Islamabad.. just by kamra air base "which i have to tell its very busy" i saw a jf-17 configured with 3 fuel tanks and two sidewinders fallowed by 2 f-7s circling right above the highway and got to see this bird for the first time! the point is... it did leave a small thin trail of smoke but lol not as much as the one in the mig-29 picture provided by x_man.. but I wonder was it Rd-93 or a Chinese one??

 

[shehbazi2001]

I was looking at the pictures of F-7PG and found that its windshield is single piece as compared to the 3-piece windshield of the F-7P.

We see that 3-piece windshield in the A-5, F-6, F-86, F-4 Phantom, F-14 Tomcat, Jaguar, Tornado, Mirage F-1 etc but that disappeared in all new fighters like F/A-18, F-15, F-16 etc.........

In Mirage-3 and Mirage-5, the forward canopy windshield was too 3-piece but later the Mirage-2000 changed to single piece windshield.....

so why was it necessary before to have a 3-piece windshield?


what was exactly the purpose of this structure of the windshield (the forward canopy)....perhaps for housing the gunsights etc

 

[blain2]

I was looking at the pictures of F-7PG and found that its windshield is single piece as compared to the 3-piece windshield of the F-7P.

We see that 3-piece windshield in the A-5, F-6, F-86, F-4 Phantom, F-14 Tomcat, Jaguar, Tornado, Mirage F-1 etc but that disappeared in all new fighters like F/A-18, F-15, F-16 etc.........

In Mirage-3 and Mirage-5, the forward canopy windshield was too 3-piece but later the Mirage-2000 changed to single piece windshield.....

so why was it necessary before to have a 3-piece windshield?


what was exactly the purpose of this structure of the windshield (the forward canopy)....perhaps for housing the gunsights etc

One piece windshields afford better visibility for close-in combat. The 3 piece windshield is a thing of the past when the technology to make single piece windshield was too expensive or not available to many countries producing fighter aircraft.

 

[Muradk]

The black smoke of the JF-17 Thunder means that the combustion of fuel in the combustion chamber of the jet engine is incomplete.

If u look at the pictures of Mig_29, it also leaves a smoke trail. The same was the case with F-4 Phantoms. Then the engine technology improved and the combustion of fuel was COMPLETE and we saw no smoke in the exhaust.

This smoke is unburnt carbon in the exhaust. The fuel is not fully burnt.

The smoke trail was also the problem with SIDEWINDER untill its AIM-9M version, which has smokeless rocket motor, and this makes it harder to detect.

I would like if all the AIM-9Ls are upgraded to M version too.

YES SIR, Department of Defense has approved your request and are working on it.

 

[Muradk]

in one occasion coming from nowshara cantt on the way to Islamabad.. just by kamra air base "which i have to tell its very busy" i saw a jf-17 configured with 3 fuel tanks and two sidewinders fallowed by 2 f-7s circling right above the highway and got to see this bird for the first time! the point is... it did leave a small thin trail of smoke but lol not as much as the one in the mig-29 picture provided by x_man.. but I wonder was it Rd-93 or a Chinese one??

The 3 fuel tanks and 2 sidewinders are a standard configuration, The smoke trail to civilians it looks like the plane has some big time fault but no. When the Actual fight starts trust me the last things is looking for a smoke trail. The smoke trail is useless for the enemy planes who have the capabilities of BVR. Now if the same plane enters a dog fight which is a 90% chance that he will the smoke trail would be the last thing on both the pilots Friend or Foe.
Plus the smoke trail vanishes after a certain hight.