Air Force Question Thread

[x_man]

Runway Intersections and Junctions

During the Arab-Israeli 1967 war and even later the planning was done to hit the "Intersection point" of two runways. If the pilot delivers his bombs accurately, he puts out of action both the runways.

If runways are builts like runway 27 and runway 18, they are likely to cross each other if not far enough, making a point of intersection. This junction of both runways is bombed during war to disable both runways.

Here we need to see that how many of PAF base runways actually have these intersection points and if bombed then how much it shall reduce the operational capability of the base. This study can even be done on google earth.

For example, as seen from google, the runway 14 and 24 at sargodha are making intersections but
the runway layout of masroor seems to be good enough, with runways 27 and 22 not making intersections.

PAF should study these runway junctions and in my opinion should try to make one runway completely independent of the other, if not so already.

For any airfield strike mission, the runway intersections are definitely the most important and lucrative…and a Direct Hit (DH) on an intersection can fetch you good marks in mock exercises….As seen by below Google Earth pic , Sargodha has a main runway ( 14/32) , a parallel runway and a secondary runway ( 06/24)…..and even if two surfaces are damaged , operations can still be carried out….



There are also many other airfields just around Sargodha….just try to find few in the below pic….look for the plus or cross signs….you should atleast be able to pick 3 in this pic…



The other airfield with good number of surfaces available is Masroor, Karachi…





Considering today’s scenario, airfields are one of the most heavily defended VPs….they have outer and inner protection rings and sometimes outer, middle and inner rings…..to penetrate safely thru the net of defences , drop your load exactly where you want to and then have a safe exit from defences and enemy’s CAPs etc , is not a walk in the park…..Also consider that with these cutting edge Rapid runway repair (RRR) equipment , any damage can be repaired in few hours…..I remember attending few demonstrations by these RRR guys , and the way they filled a Durandal hit patch was amazing and makes you think as a pilot that ‘’What the hell , why even bother so much with hitting a runway if these guys RRR guys are there’’…..

In Indo / Pak scenario, any airfield strike will comprise good number of aircrafts and as I mentioned earlier that airfields are very heavily defended , so there is a good chance that you are bound to have some attrition until and unless enemy is tipsy or sleeping…..So in the end of a airfield strike, if I have lost my 3 aircrafts and three pilots and the runway that they hit is up and running again ( courtesy of RRR guys) after few hours, it will make me think if all that effort and attrition was worth it ?

Sometimes its do and die situation and you might need to neutralise an airfield for few hours in order to achieve some bigger objective elsewhere and you even don’t mind few losses , I would say go ahead with the strike …….BUT just striking an airfield for the heck of it…Not a very good idea…

 

[Muradk]

Shehbazi you are right, just to add few bits, when we say runway 27 , it means that once lined up or coming to land on the runway 27, your aircraft heading will be 270 …

Although very rare but has happened, runway directions can be confusing, especially if you are going to an airfield for the first time….many times pilots came for the landing from the opposite direction and ended up head-on to the aircraft that were taking-off….

Sir Murad, Chaklala is 12/30..

Thanks X

 

[Muradk]

In 71 we got hammered by the IAF in Peshawar and Karmra, but we always found a way to take off and hats of to the Army Engg they work 24/7 to keep us in air.

1981 Minawali our base taxi ( piper S ) had a bird hit that the co pilot had to have surgery to get the dead dove's parts and glass out of his left shoulder. The proprs were damaded so I told them, just to land on the main road and they did the on comming traffic were not much a problem in the month of july its to hot so only trucks on the road and buses and the locals knew what a plane looks like. It landed perfectly and not only that the locals put the pilots in a car and rushed them to the base they some how picked the plane and put it on a on a open truck by the locals, by the time our queen fari got out of the base the police called and said every thing is ok the pilots are on there way and the plane is on a local truck on its ways Every one who helped were given a money to help PAF.

 

[Neo]

Excuse my ignorance but I wanted to ask a simple question. Can all civil airports be used by airforce in case of emergency?

How long will it take to install temporary logistic infrastructure?

A list of major airports in Pakistan:

Main Airports
Airport ICAO code Runway length Runway width Height Latitude (DD) Longitude (DD)

Allama iqbal intl OPLA 2744 m 44 m 217 m 31.520 74.400
Allama iqbal intl OPLA 3360 m 44 m 217 m 31.520 74.400
Bahawalpur OPBW 1524 m 22 m 115 m 29.350 71.710
Bandari OP 2779 m 30 m 769 m 27.850 65.160
Bannu OPBN 1830 m 29 m 403 m 32.970 70.520
Basal OP 1993 m 45 m 396 m 33.530 72.260
Belab OP 1493 m 14 m 114 m 30.340 70.560
Chaklala OPRN 3287 m 45 m 507 m 33.620 73.100
Chandhar OP 2743 m 45 m 188 m 32.080 73.790
Chashma OP 1066 m 15 m 196 m 32.420 71.460
Chitral OPCH 1749 m 30 m 1493 m 35.890 71.800
Dera ghazi khan OPDG 1981 m 30 m 148 m 29.960 70.490
Dera ismail khan OPDI 1511 m 22 m 181 m 31.910 70.900
Dhingar OP 2468 m 45 m 1589 m 29.920 66.750
Faisalabad intl OPFA 2814 m 45 m 180 m 31.370 73.000
Gilgit OPGT 1645 m 30 m 1457 m 35.920 74.330
Gurha salim OP 922 m 10 m 243 m 32.880 73.610
Gwadar OPGD 1584 m 28 m 29 m 25.230 62.330
Gwadar OPGD 1524 m 27 m 29 m 25.230 62.330
Jinnah intl OPKC 3406 m 45 m 30 m 24.910 67.160
Jinnah intl OPKC 3200 m 45 m 30 m 24.910 67.160
Jiwani OPJI 1625 m 45 m 56 m 25.070 61.810
Juzzak OP 1581 m 30 m 872 m 29.040 61.650
Kandhkot OP 1177 m 24 m 76 m 28.270 69.280
Kashmor OP 1185 m 21 m 79 m 28.470 69.600
Khairpur OP 914 m 22 m 91 m 28.040 69.670
Khanpur OP 926 m 45 m 86 m 28.640 70.630
Kharan OPKN 905 m 28 m 152 m 28.590 65.420
Kharan east OP 1550 m 29 m 152 m 28.630 65.470
Khewra OP 1084 m 12 m 233 m 32.630 73.020
Khorewah OP 1199 m 19 m 4 m 24.790 68.560
Khuzdar OPKH 1828 m 30 m 1209 m 27.790 66.640
Kot addu OP 1037 m 24 m 131 m 30.500 70.970
Mad juma OP 2400 m 60 m 78 m 28.360 70.600
Mandi bahauddin OP 884 m 24 m 228 m 32.600 73.510
Mangla OPMA 1524 m 30 m 274 m 33.050 73.640
Mari indus east OP 1400 m 24 m 310 m 32.920 71.690
Masroor OPMR 2628 m 39 m 10 m 24.890 66.940
Masroor OPMR 2749 m 60 m 10 m 24.890 66.940
Mianwali OPMI 3097 m 47 m 210 m 32.560 71.570
Mianwali OPMI 3154 m 29 m 210 m 32.560 71.570
Minhas OP 3147 m 49 m 304 m 33.870 72.400
Mir baz OP 826 m 30 m 716 m 31.190 70.180
Miram shah OPMN 1402 m 45 m 935 m 33.010 70.060
Miram shah OPMN 2222 m 45 m 935 m 33.010 70.060
Moenjodaro OPMJ 1984 m 30 m 46 m 27.340 68.140
Multan intl OPMT 2757 m 29 m 122 m 30.200 71.420
Murid OP 2724 m 29 m 540 m 32.910 72.770
Muzaffarabad OPMF 914 m 22 m 830 m 34.340 73.510
Nawabshah OPNH 2744 m 45 m 28 m 26.220 68.390
Nok kundi OP 1134 m 27 m 678 m 28.820 62.730
Nushki OPNK 872 m 24 m 975 m 29.540 66.020
Okara OPOK 3351 m 24 m 152 m 30.740 73.360
Ormara OPOR 1528 m 22 m 18 m 25.270 64.590
Ouzkani OP 862 m 27 m 710 m 30.250 70.240
Panjgur OPPG 1524 m 22 m 1002 m 26.950 64.130
Pano aqil southeast OP 1833 m 45 m 52 m 27.810 69.170
Parachinar OPPC 1202 m 22 m 1764 m 33.900 70.070
Pasni OPPI 2733 m 46 m 10 m 25.280 63.330
Peshawar OPPS 2743 m 45 m 369 m 33.990 71.510
Qasim OPQS 1000 m 45 m 492 m 33.560 73.030
Qasim OPQS 2040 m 45 m 492 m 33.560 73.030
Quetta OPQT 3648 m 30 m 1605 m 30.250 66.940
Quetta OPQT 3657 m 45 m 1605 m 30.250 66.940
Rafiqui OPRQ 3048 m 48 m 149 m 30.760 72.280
Rafiqui OPRQ 2932 m 29 m 149 m 30.760 72.280
Rahwali OP 707 m 25 m 227 m 32.240 74.130
Rahwali OP 1906 m 45 m 227 m 32.240 74.130
Rajanpur OP 3048 m 45 m 121 m 29.260 70.190
Rawalakot OPRT 914 m 22 m 1676 m 33.850 73.800
Risalpur OPRS 1780 m 49 m 320 m 34.080 71.970
Risalpur OPRS 2769 m 49 m 320 m 34.080 71.970
Robray OP 1507 m 48 m 560 m 26.250 63.130
Robray OP 1360 m 39 m 560 m 26.250 63.130
Saidu sharif OPSS 1829 m 46 m 970 m 34.810 72.350
Sargodha OPSR 3125 m 49 m 187 m 32.050 72.670
Sargodha OPSR 2425 m 35 m 187 m 32.050 72.670
Shahbaz ab OPJA 3060 m 45 m 54 m 28.280 68.450
Shahbaz ab OPJA 2952 m 24 m 54 m 28.280 68.450
Shaikh zayed OPRK 3048 m 45 m 82 m 28.390 70.280
Sharea faisal OPSF 2450 m 45 m 8 m 24.870 67.120
Skardu OPSD 3640 m 30 m 2229 m 35.330 75.540
Skardu OPSD 1981 m 30 m 2229 m 35.330 75.540
Sui OPSU 1516 m 45 m 232 m 28.650 69.180
Sui OPSU 1828 m 30 m 232 m 28.650 69.180
Sukkur OPSK 2743 m 29 m 59 m 27.720 68.790
Talhar OPTH 2733 m 22 m 15 m 24.840 68.840
Tarbela dam OPTA 1706 m 30 m 339 m 33.990 72.610
Thal OP 1403 m 45 m 807 m 33.390 70.590
Thar OP 1473 m 25 m 50 m 27.200 69.150
Turbat intl OPTU 1817 m 30 m 151 m 25.990 63.030
Velhari OP 3135 m 45 m 131 m 30.090 72.150
Walton OPLH 1338 m 45 m 213 m 31.490 74.350
Wana OPWN 964 m 44 m 1386 m 32.310 69.570
Wateji OP 1821 m 45 m 44 m 24.870 67.410
Zhob OPZB 1770 m 30 m 1417 m 31.360 69.460

PAKISTAN Main Airports Geography Population Map City and cities coordinates location

 

[Keysersoze]

Interesting.....In Finland you can see the occasional aircraft shelters on the side of long motorways. Maybe the PAF should look into having a few emergency areas like that.

 

[x_man]

Excuse my ignorance but I wanted to ask a simple question. Can all civil airports be used by airforce in case of emergency?

How long will it take to install temporary logistic infrastructure?

[/url]

By emergency if you mean any in-flight problem, then definitely any airfield can be used for immediate landing may it be civil or military…

In case of outbreak of any hostilities also, any civil airfield can be used for the deployment and operations…But there are many pre-requisites for fighters operations, few of the major ones are highlighted below....

1..The length of the runway should be minimum 9000 feet…any shorter runway will not be good enough ..

2. Availability of correct grade of fuel…preferably JP-4 or JP-5 ….many civil airports do have ample amount of jet fuels, but many don’t have…So any civil airfield which doesn’t house the correct specification fuel, is probably useless to operate from…

3. Aircraft stopping barriers at both the runway ends...

4. Civilian world generally uses VHF for radio transmissions, whereas military guys use UHF…so any airport who’s ATC doesn’t have UHF transmission/reception facilities, is again considered useless for fighter ops…

5. Availability of aircraft shelters…can’t park them on open Tarmacs….

Besides these there are many other small considerations that are related to aircraft maintenance etc..

The good thing is that majority of civil airports on our eastern border fulfil the fighter ops requirements and squadrons have been regularly deploying there…

Squadron deplyement can be done in less than a day if all other pre-requisites are met...quick deployment is one of the major attribute of the airpower..

 

[Neo]

Thank you for detalied reply!

 

[x_man]

Interesting.....In Finland you can see the occasional aircraft shelters on the side of long motorways. Maybe the PAF should look into having a few emergency areas like that.

PAF have also used motorway for landing by Mirages and F-7 …There are quite a few long straight stretches close to Sheikupura ( near Lahore) and the width of motorway is also perfect….There are few areas on the motorway that are marked for fighter operations incase of any hostilities breakout..

 

[Myth_buster_1]

sir x-man.. Is gripen specifically designed for quick and easy operation from highways...

 

[Neo]

Mig's and Mirages used National Highway near Karachi in 1971, my uncle (friend of my late father) Farooq Abbasi was honored for engineering it.

 

[x_man]

sir x-man.. Is gripen specifically designed for quick and easy operation from highways...

Sweeds are famous for off-runway operations...probably their every major road can be used for fighter ops...check these out..

 

[Muradk]

In 71 war we did such amazing things you guys wount belive , during a dog fight me and one of my course mate God Blass his soul. we ended up doing sissors with a Gnat and the saber went and hit the high tenstion cable, it got stuck 90deg to the nose so the gnat got away because the saber was carring the cable and it was 150 ft long, Now the bigges problem was how to land the plane and in such emegencies commercial airports wount be a good thing because the cable will rip apart eveything which comes to contact as the speed reduced to 150k the cable started to fall down the saber was toucht enought to carry it but he had to put a lot of prssure on his left rudder to keep it staright, finally we decided to land at Kamra as the plane reduced its speed the cable went down and it was a danger that if he lands the cable would hit the groud first that the saber would get into trouble. well he touched down and the cable dragging with it, Everything was going well the cable got close to the plane and went into thr tires well I dont have to tell you what happend next 1 saber destroyed 2 sabers and one fuel taker. Now if he would have landed at a commercial Airport just imagine what could hapen.

2nd
in the 60 s and 70s the flight surgeons had to do 15 hous a week in flying, I took a young Flt lt and as I took of it was his first flight he strated to screem and started to hit the canopy to let his out and I was at 7 thousand feet, with his conditon I had no other choice but to pull gs so I can put him to sleep. I did that and it worked for about 10 sec and them I declared emegency and told Karachi International I still rmember telling ATC ,"Karachi ATC this is T-33 comming in for emegency landing cannot go around " Copy PAF you have first priority please land " just because of the doctor we had to tell 4 airlines to go around and land. What if they were low on fuel them what ?

 

[Neo]

Last three SAAB designs, the JA-35 Draken, JA-37 Viggen and now JAS-39 Gripen all have STOL capability and can operate from a runway as short as 700m!

Draken

Viggen


Gripen

 

[IceCold]

Draken had rather unusual shape of its time. It was rather very unique looking more like a space ship sort of a thing. The latter are all typical.

 

[shehbazi2001]

Discovery channel made a documentary on swedish aircrafts called "Wings of Sweden" and I searched it several times but could not watch this documentary. It would be great if someone can find it on net.

Regarding Gripen's use from roads, one another factor is that it can be turned around or maintained by just a small team of 5-6 technicians. Thats important for roadside operations because elaborate infrastructure is not available there and fighters heavy on maintenance requirements are somewhat difficult to operate from the roads.