Air Force Question Thread
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Imran Khan
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sir murad who can a small bird crash the plane?
p2prada
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Need permission from Mods
There is a social networking site called Orkut with various communities including one called the "JF-17 Thunder".
There was a thread called "Su-30 vs F-16". Most of the pakistani's believed the F-16 to be superior to the MKI in every way until a "PAF Airforce Pilot" jumped into the discussion. He claims to works in the AHQ, his father is an ACAS , and he is a close friend of the "Chief Project Director JF-17". He is telling the truth cause it was confirmed he works for the PAF. His first name is ASAD.
He listed various drawbacks within the PAF and many more. If u are interested i can give u the link and post the comments of the pilot(since the site needs registration to view posts).
I know u have a policy regarding other forums. But this is a non moderated forum. Its a social networking site. So, can i post?
There is a social networking site called Orkut with various communities including one called the "JF-17 Thunder".
There was a thread called "Su-30 vs F-16". Most of the pakistani's believed the F-16 to be superior to the MKI in every way until a "PAF Airforce Pilot" jumped into the discussion. He claims to works in the AHQ, his father is an ACAS , and he is a close friend of the "Chief Project Director JF-17". He is telling the truth cause it was confirmed he works for the PAF. His first name is ASAD.
He listed various drawbacks within the PAF and many more. If u are interested i can give u the link and post the comments of the pilot(since the site needs registration to view posts).
I know u have a policy regarding other forums. But this is a non moderated forum. Its a social networking site. So, can i post?
p2prada
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Thanks
http://www.orkut.co.in/CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=4706074&tid=2435110426634041068
It might be easier for non members to just join and view the posts urself.
I m NOT ADVERTISING THE NETWORKING SITE
He, ASAD ALI was arguing with another guy called SAAD, a cadet in a defence academy. Though SAAD deleted his posts ASADs posts are still there.
Most of this happened in 2006. So, some inaccuracies exist, like PAF was denied the RD-93.
I m posting all of ASADs posts.
ASAD stopped posting after this.
I hope ASAD does not get any hate mails after this. Dont forget it is only his opinion although an airforce pilot.
anyways Thanks again for letting me post this.
http://www.orkut.co.in/CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=4706074&tid=2435110426634041068
It might be easier for non members to just join and view the posts urself.
I m NOT ADVERTISING THE NETWORKING SITE
He, ASAD ALI was arguing with another guy called SAAD, a cadet in a defence academy. Though SAAD deleted his posts ASADs posts are still there.
Most of this happened in 2006. So, some inaccuracies exist, like PAF was denied the RD-93.
I m posting all of ASADs posts.
the only effective conuter is Chaffs and very very veyr hard manuvering.....
if we are buzy being totally on the defensive...and not pose any threat tot he intruder....its better not to fly the fighters at all and save them for another day
also
see the term DOGFIGHT ahs been replaced by the term KNIFE-FIGHT....
you know wat that is?
in a knife fight....the 2 opponents are tied togather by one wrist....leaving just 1 hand free for each person.....they are both handed a knife.....and its a fight till the death....
one wins....one losses....but both of them are injured...
this is exactly wat dog fights have turned into...
you enter a dogfight....
1 both you and ur opponents plane will be damaged.....
2 you burn up all ur fuel
3 YOU ARE A VERY VERY VISIBLE TARGET FOR THE ENTIRE BATTLE FIELD
one wins...the other is shot down.....but the winner also has a damaged jet and no fuel...thus leaving him combat ineffective for the rest of the fight....and probably the rest of the war as well.....
being visible in the AO is wat gets you killed....and dog fights make you very very visible...
NO SELF-RESPECTING PILOT WANTS TO GET INTO A DOGFIGHT....but everyone trains hard for that
the USAF is the most succuessful AF cuz it doesnt get into dogfights...IAF knows this...and is capitolizing on this
do you research dude...
in the JF-17....EVERYTHING from the engine airframe tot he avionics is all chinese...only the radar will be french..
the russian RD-93 engine which was originally designed to be put on the JF-17 has been withdrawn by the russians.....
thus the remaining whole package is chinese
for you info....china is demanding 10 milllion dollars for just ONE test launch of an SD-10....
oh and plzz.....being russian dont not make a jet infirior in any way...
those Su-30 ( NOT THE SU-30MKi which is the most advanced flanker in production today) and the MiG-29z kick *** in dogfights....that is if u get near them
the Su-30/SU-30MKi is currently the top ranking jet in asia/europe...the only competitors being the F-15C, F-22 and EF-2000
you use the net....start looking around....and get to know just exactly wat IAF and russian jets are capable of...
oh n PAf lags behind IAF by more than 20 yrs
one more thingi...
JF-17 wont be entering service anytime before early 2008
and on a side note
our Mirages III/V with ROSE I/II upgrades are more advance and expensive then the current fleet of F-16s we have
dude....thee EFFECTIVE range of the AIM-120C AMRAAM is 60 miles....thats 100 kmz...
second.....yea th MLU'ed Vipers will be technically more advanced than the mirages..
third....i live next door to Chief Project Director JF-17....so dun bullshit me on that...Chief Consultant for the JF is a very close frnd
4th...the russian jets are superior dogfights...even the americans admit to that....BUT that only comes into play if the russians get anywhere near the US fighter....
got the point.....
the whole concept is never to get visual with the enemy...never give him a shot...always keep him on the defensive....you cant do that without BVRs....which PAFz lacks..
oh btw...if things go right..wel just moght get AIM-120c AMRAAMs n AGM-88 HARMs with the Viper package
as for PAFs claims on th JF.....do u even know the history of the project?
did u kno wen PAF initated the project with china.....then called the FC-1?....any idea?.....it was 1983
did u know just how many times PAF has pulled out of this project?.....this is the 3rd time PAF joined this project....1st time we started the project...its was called the FC-1....2nd time we joined in...we called it super-7 and sayin it was a whole new jet concept......and now we are calling it the JF-17
originally the work on this jet was done by the US company Gruman ( which designed n made the F-14 Tomcat )....from then on it was ALL RUSSIAN N CHINESE.....
westren avionices n engines ( p404 i guess was planed initailly) were planed....the west withdrew all support n tech for the project due to 1 the preslar n brown agreements n 2nd the 1998 nuke tests were.....even the russian say they are not gonna let china give us the RD-93 engines for the JF....sayin it made china sign an end user agreement on the engine...
so where is the deal.....the WHOLE of JF-17 is chinese....weapons will be intergrated in pakistan by AWC, POF and PEC ( not PAC)...the jet will be assembled at PAC...
SAAD's Post:>>And yes MiG-29 and Su-30 are good dog fighters specially with their HMS ......... but PAF has great experiance on these machines in Syria amd Iraq. and with Su-30 in China ..... so this will be a great advantage on our side where Indians have only done exercises with F-16s only twice ""
ASADs reply>>>
got news for you dude....
we tested the MiG-29z for PAF.....we didnt take them cuz we cudnt afford to maintain them...
btw...PAF pilots other than in russia doing evaluation fights....have never flown a MiG-29....
PAF was in NO WAY involved in any iraq war in anytime ...
OH N PLZZ....
we operate Mirages n F-7s ( chinese mig-21s)....these 2 jets make up about 2/3rds of our fighter fleet...and IAF operates both mirages ( including mirage 2k) and MiG-21 with Bison upgrades....india flies half of our fleet.....so dont even think kay we have the upper hand :S...
as for exercises...
did u by any chance forget IAF took its fighter to alaska for exercises against multiple air forces ?.....and IAF also commanded quite a few of the missions ?...that is IAF pilots flying as commander of the op?...
did u know....the MiG-25R routinly came overhead our istallations but PAF couldnt do anything about it ?..
come on man...wake up...stop living under a rock :S
lolzz
iraqiz never gave a **** abt pakistan or PAF for that matter..just exactly which jet did the iraqi AF operated fer which our pilots were qualified to fly?..Iraqi AF was wholely trained by the russians, ukrainians and the french to some extent
about the FC-1 project..initially PAF wanted to upgrade the F-7Ps..but within a week of initiation of the project..it was planed to be a totally seperate , medium tech interceptor with bom,bing as a 2ndry role.
initial work n feasibility study was done by Gruman USA, engine study was conducted by PW..it turned out to be a highly feasible fighter, with full multirole capability with westren avionices n the P404 was the most sutied engine for the project
this was early 1983
in late 1983, the US sold the F-16A/B blocks 10 thru 20 to the PAF
PAF lost all interest in the FC-1..n poulled out of the project..but china continued to develop the jet with US assistance.
then came your preslar n brown agreements..we lost all support tot he F-16s and china lost the support to the FC-1..we turned back tot he FC-1..this time calling it the Super-7..meanwhile china had asked MiG to help out with the project, which MiG did..PAF was laging wayy behind in the development of the FC-1..n heace cudnt play any major role in it from then on..we only had 10 to to 20 ppl on the prject in china where as china had 2 to 3000
then came 1995-96 the 2nd gulf war..support of the US got us the support n spares we needed for the Vipers..n thus PAF again lost interest n AGAIN pulled out of hte project Super-7
then came your nuke tests in 98 and again for 2 yrs we cudnt think of wat to do..n then PAC reminded PAF of the FC-1/Super-7..PAF decided to join back in like 2002..this time calling it the JF-17
we wre suppose to get the RD-93 engine (modified versions of the RD-33 flyin on the MiG-29) russia has withdrawn it.
wen this jet comes off the production line..its gonna be wholey chinese with frnch radar and avionces derived from the IAI LAVI project
@ saad...
are u telling me that an airforce who operates in an AWACS environment will have less knowledge abt AWACS :S....
anti BVR tactics ?....like wat chaffs, hard manuvering, low level flying, usign ground clutter to confue the missile??..
oo bhai...no more arguements from me...
IAF can take total air dominance of pak airspace in 24 hrs....PAF knows this...thats y we going after the F-16s...
but even if we get the F-22....without BVR we can never win...
have u read the specs of the Bison fire controll system ?...
the last exercise PAf did with another AF was in 1997....wen our F-7 n mirages operated against a US carrier task force......uss say phalay it was in the 80z?....did u know that?
stop lissinging to wat the media is tell you...get on the net...start talking to ppl...and you`ll know...
ur still a cadet in sargodha......your mind is being molded to think PAF is better than the IAF...
so no more arguements from my side...
but mark my words....my dad is an ACAS...IAF can take down PAF in 24 hrs..
oh and...about procurment..
taking into consideration wat IAF is beign offered....our Block50/52 Vipers are nothing..
theya re being offered the Eurofighter EF-2000, Su-35 Terminator, E/F-18E/F Super Horent, F-16C/D/ADF Blocks 50/52/60, Mirage 2005/2009 adn the Rafeal...
every single one of these fighter are state of the art....
and the JF-17....well its still inferior to the F-16C/D block 30 and Mirage 2000....
their MiG-25 is being replaced by russia with MiG-31 Foxhounds almost free of cost.....u must already know the MiG-25/31 is the fastest and highest flying operation fighter on the planet
Phalcon AWACS being inducted....
do the maths yourself.....
ps
the USAF/USANG/USN will be exersicing with the IAF every year if not bi-annually in not only AWACS but also digial battlefield environments
now you do the maths
yaaaar....when exactly was any of our units deplyed ?.
that bullshit about turkey is exactly that..BULLSHIT...
and we work with the saudi civil defencse force...not the Airforce.....btw...50% of their airforce is manned by the USAF...
mind it SD-10 has never been test fired...china asked PAF 10 million dollars for one test fire..
those Bison carry teh Amos BVR....n shes got a range of abt 70 kmz.....that more than the radar range of our F-7P.......you are tawking about the basic MiG-21...not the MiG-21 with Bison upgrades
EriEye is an AEW platform.....its just a flying radar.....nothing else......the Phalcon is AEW & C ( AWACS ) its a stand alone air-borne controll system.....
wen we operate with the EriEye.our interceptors still will effectively flyin under GCI type controll....AWACS eliminate ground control entirely...
about the last stand off ?....beta kargil may IAF nay pak army ki jo ki do u know that....the IAF kiled 2000 soldiers in 1 week....dad PAF do anything...NO....so dont bullshit me on ops...
abt 2000/01.....India was never gonna attack us.....they provoked us....they were watchin us....they know exactly how we will react to them....and therefore plan accordingly....
IAF is a hell lot more professional than wat they are potrayed here...even ISI admits to that....they monitor R/T traffic of both PAF n IAF....IAF is 10 times more diciplined than PAF...this is wat ISI says
LOLZZ
u acutally think NATO will let PAF piltos fly their jets in combat exercises ?..
PAF went to turkey as observers PERIOD.....no participation wat so ever
ISI monitors both PAF n IAF activites and RT.....dont believe me SO WAT...
and why r you talkin about WUD IF.....chances are we are not going to get any BVR...and teh SD-10 is a piece of ****...y cuz my dad teams went for its evaluation so i know
abt Kargil......we even lie abt the 1965 n 1971 wars...jsut y wuoldnt the army lie about this today......do you have any idea on the number of helo soties flown just to get the KIA out of kargil?....each flight carried 20 dead.....there were over 100 flights......do the maths..
PAf did participate in the kargil conflict JUST TO SHOW THE PAK ARMY WAT IS GONNA HAPPEN TO IT IF PAF DID EXIST..
y did it do that.....because the amry had plans ot make PAF part of the ARMY AIR CORP....and not let it be a seperate arm...
oh and by the time ur out of the academy...pakistan will have a 4th service....
deekh this is the problem with PAf....its still living in the so called glory days of it.....and not realizing wat PAf faces today.....this is our problem..we think we are the best...while infact we are no where near it
oh and u wanna monitor PAF n IAF ....get a UHF tuner.....u will need a decoder for the IAF bands....PAF freq are not coded
and funny...u in an cadet college....and im at the AHQ....and u telling me u know more then me.... :| wow
yaar..the ops sqdns u tawkin about..unn ki anual reports go thru my dad...so I KNO...
NESCOM is no where near BVR tech...BVR choro we cant copy the Sidewinder we have!!......missile banana is no big deal...guidence IS....guidence nai develp kar saktay....there are only 4 or 5 counties in the world do make the guidence systems for missiles....BVRM itself is a flyin radar...
abt our F-16s....they were doing 60 hrs a month for yrs until HighMark...IAF does 270 hrs a month on each airframe they have.....this just shows where the experieeence level of our pilots is...
other unit....they train hard....anti BVR is not simple....
u said ECM....aik ECM pod covers only a 1 or 2 bands....not the entire spectrum......this is the problem...we dontknow which bands to jam.....
plus th point...with Phalcons....IAF can see as far deep as peshawer wen flyin 50 kmz inside india.....this give them a stratigic advantage...they know where we r...we dont know where they are.....
IAF is like 20 yrs ahead of PAF in every department....oh plus 8 Singapore AF Vipers..ya Viper C block 30s are going to india fer exercies tihs month...
abt kargil.....if these number went public....do u kno army kaysa th public nay kya karna hay.....think outsid eof the box......my sourses are not just PAF officers....but also the army helo pilots who flew in kargil (who happen to be are my flight instructors) india lost less than half of the pak army casulties.....
oh did u know we left the CREAM of our SSG to die in kargil ?......yup we deserted them.....they died for nothing...and dont buillshit me on kashmir....cuz we started kargil....jsut like we started the 1965 war...those guys gave their lives for a generals dream...
coming back to the point this thread is all abt...
F-16 Vs. the SU-30/ SU-30MKi......Viper will get its *** whooped everytime it comes up against the Flanker UNLESS THE VIPER IS FLYIN WITH AMRAAMs
argument closed!
one more thing....
IM NTO AGAINST THE PAF....i luv the PAF
i analyze air forces......thats it
our problem is we living in a dream that we are still better than the IAF...while infact we are laging behind in every single way....unless we realize this....there is NO WAY IN HELL we can ever come upto their standards
yaar lissin
in 1965, pakistan started the war by crossing the LoC into kashmir....
indian objective...to get pakistan out of kashmir.....which they did brillently....
as for the F-86....it is the best of the non-supersonic fighter of the 50s and 60s....you always forget...PAF was technilogically more advanced back then as compared to the IAF...and our pilots were tarined by the USAF in the US.....
we take a few incidents and say pakistan won....true the IAF made mistakes and all.....but it won the over all war...
sames the case in 1971....we lost east pakistan not because of india....but becase of west pakistan.....how is a long story...
anyway
you again talk about its the mna, not the machine...
here is an example from cope india 2004...
F-15C V.s MiG-21, MiG-29, Su-30, and Mirage 2000
the US fighters lost 80% of hte engagements just becase they were flying
1 without AMRAAMs
2 without AESA radars
3 wihtout AWACS support
4 were out numbered 3 to 1
if the man behind the machine really mattered then the USAF wouldnt have been beaten that bad.....because US crews are the best in the world
yes these are the same F-15s that hold a 107-0 combat kill record....only difference....less the 30 of those 107 kill are in dogfights....all are BVR.....in other words...they won just because they technilogically overwhelm the enemy.....thats hows its been working after vietnam war
u tell me....does the man behind the machine really matter in todays combat?....no he does not...
chalo even take todays WVR fights.....with IRTS ( on MiGs) and HMS on westren fighters....with which u can fire a sidewinder X ( or archer) at you opponent who is at 90 degree from your current heading.....what can the opponent do.....those missiles can handle targets 100 degress off bore sight....
today...its the machine....not the man
ASAD stopped posting after this.
I hope ASAD does not get any hate mails after this. Dont forget it is only his opinion although an airforce pilot.
anyways Thanks again for letting me post this.
Myth_buster_1
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LOL what laughing stocks you have posted...
a indian trying to play a PAF pilot role..
but his indianess can be spotted like a cat with dogs balls..
a indian trying to play a PAF pilot role.. but his indianess can be spotted like a cat with dogs balls..
p2prada
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LOL what laughing stocks you have posted...
Hmm, do u know what a social network site is.
Find out from your friends about Orkut. Then register and join. They will help u by inviting.
Send ASAD a "friends request" and view the photos he has posted in his PROFILE.
A photo of him in the PAF uniform. The transport plane he flies. Other family photos. ETC ETC
U even have info regarding his cuisines, books, movies and other stuff he likes. In case u are still not satisfied, here is his profile
http://www.orkut.co.in/Profile.aspx?uid=11837908105342383788
Talk to him yourself.
If he wasnt a pilot or even pakistani then i wouldnt have broken my head over posting useless jargon.
I had made it clear to one of your mods that i dint join this community to waste time.
If u still dont believe, then u can remain stubborn. I cant help it.
Or according to ASADs words
AgNoStiC MuSliM
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Some of his comments in 2006 may have had some validity. Obviously he is entitled to his opinion, we have PAF and PA people on this forum and elsewhere who would disagree with many of the conclusions he has arrived at.
A lot of his comments are based around the lack of a BVRAAM in the PAF - and that deficiency is certainly an issue, however it has been addressed through the AAMRAAM acquisition, and non-American sources will also be utilized.
The JF-17 in 2006 was not the same JF-17 we have today, and where it is heading in terms of future upgrades, so his comments regarding the capabilities of the AC seem a bit outdated.
With regards to his points about the Chinese having done a lot of the work on the jet, that is true, I don't think very many informed posters will disagree with that contention.
It is our first venture into designing and constructing an AC, and a tremendous opportunity to learn. At the end of the day, it is about the deployable capability the program gives us, and we should hopefully see the fruits of that by the end of this year.
A lot of his comments are based around the lack of a BVRAAM in the PAF - and that deficiency is certainly an issue, however it has been addressed through the AAMRAAM acquisition, and non-American sources will also be utilized.
The JF-17 in 2006 was not the same JF-17 we have today, and where it is heading in terms of future upgrades, so his comments regarding the capabilities of the AC seem a bit outdated.
With regards to his points about the Chinese having done a lot of the work on the jet, that is true, I don't think very many informed posters will disagree with that contention.
It is our first venture into designing and constructing an AC, and a tremendous opportunity to learn. At the end of the day, it is about the deployable capability the program gives us, and we should hopefully see the fruits of that by the end of this year.
p2prada
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Maybe yes maybe no. He claims his dad is an ACAS(i dont know what the abbr means) and he is close to the chief consultant in the JF program(meaning his dad might be closer and not him, atleast professionally).
If his dad and friend like to talk a little more than needed during tea, then he might know something any other junior officer doesnot.
Anyways children of defence personal know more than they seem. The same applies in india too.
p2prada
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Most of the comments centre around BVR cause the other guy SAAD was hell bent on believing PAF fighter pilots can bring down F-22s using pea shooters. Notice how Asad closed his point of view.
p2prada
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Here are some snippets on what he had to contend with,
Asad replied with the "4 BVRs for each fighter" and hard manouvering
PAF IAF ballz dialog
Some guy poking his nose in
talks about the 65 war and ends his discussion
Asad stops replying after that.
So, the guy he was replyin to wanst that well informed. supposedly he is in training.
Asad replied with the "4 BVRs for each fighter" and hard manouvering
PAF IAF ballz dialog
Some guy poking his nose in
talks about the 65 war and ends his discussion
Asad stops replying after that.
So, the guy he was replyin to wanst that well informed. supposedly he is in training.
There is not one PAF/PA/PN officer who would go on line and blabber BS that he has posted. Also note not a single thing he has mentioned is insider information. It has already been speculated upon and discussed to death on multiple Pakistani defence forums. So I am not impressed. The Big-I is the hallmark of anonymity, so lets keep the trust factor of the posts and posters on line in mind.
PAF has definitely had a deficiency in first-shot capability. You know and I know that is no longer the case.
I think not! USAF in CI05 had no problems handling the Mig-29s with their Vipers. I have already put up some comments of the USAF Pilots about their engagements with the MKI and others including the F-16.
No doubt most of this purported "Assad's" info is gleaned from the Web as well.
If this guy is a PAF insider then he deserves an *** kicking (no offense to Muradk and X-man sahiban here).
All this idiot of an insider had to do was to pick up the official PAF history book and read through the history of the Super-7 project. Had he known anything or done a bit more reading (most of his comments are based on his Internet reading), he would have figured that JF-17 and Super-7 had no real links aside from the fact that both projects involved PAF and China. Super-7 was a project based on a F-7 airguard airframe with US avionics and propulsion, whereas JF-17 was designed from scratch. Maybe we should all be impressed by his mention of Northrop Grumman's involvement in the project
Then this genius goes on claiming:
Nobody in the PAF uses a term like "Cuz"!! Its as American slang as it gets. This little kid is no one but an Internet PAF wanna-be. I have been around to know a thing or two about how our guys talk and communicate at least.
Also the point about not affording the Mig-29 maintenance is BS. Countries poorer and more ill-equipped than PAF have flown these aircraft. Secondly, PAF rejected the Mig-29 in favor of the Su-27. The PAF air staff suggested to the GoP that some Mig-29s could be purchased aside from the Su-27s, albeit with modifications. The topic of maintenance never came up because the Russians came back and said the sale was no go as the Russian government could not clear the sale to Pakistan. This was the end of the Su-27/Mig-29 debate.
What kind of an idiot is this guy? I would put money on it that this guy has no clue or linkages (abba, chacha, mama does not count) to the PAF. Who says that "both planes would be damaged"? How so? PAF pilots have been in many, many dogfights (including MuradK sahib here) and I can tell you that they have lived to fight another day with their aircraft being intact.
No **** sherlock, but fighter pilots are not morons like this idiot. They constantly do fuel checks to see if they have enough to mix it up and then return to the base. Chances of close in combat are always there. Who is to say that you cannot run out of your BVR AAM load out and have to take on the adversary in close in combat?
Really? Another revelation from this idiot of a genius! Why is the assumption that a dogfight is only over a battlefield? What kind of a retard is this individual? Certainly not someone who has served. I can guarantee you that much.
Hmm so Raytheon and the billions it has spent on a program such as AIM-9x (and to name a few more like Diehl's IRIS-T, Rafael Python 5 etc. etc.) are being developed and deployed in vain?
Let me leave it at this. Would love to chat with this Assad guy to find out what key position in the PAF he is in.
I don't even want to give this guy the credit for trying to act like an Airforce officer because he does a really shitty job of it.
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