Air Force Question Thread

[Interceptor]

On the question of a B-52, yeah, in US military parlance, the B-52 is the "Bomb Truck". It wouldn't last 10 minutes in any type of modern anti-air environment, but when all the enemy air technology newer than say ~1950 has already been eliminated, it works wonders. It is also has a unit cost of 30-50 million dollars, compared to the 2.2 billion dollar price tag on the B-2, or the 281 million dollar price tag on the B-1.

Well the price tag due to few thing in my opinion, one the B-52 is a absolute bomber concept, it is also gigantic compared to any other bombers, the design is nearly 60 odd years old building one of these on request is expensive, however, the USAF force has mostly refurbished these B-52H's and started using them, they are specialist bomber units, if you know the history of the UK bomber planes you will see that these kind of large bombers are mostly absolute, look at the Victor and Veliant they are more sophisticated bombers than the B-52H, however, they are now used as cargo planes, when they were designed, they were specialist bombers for the cold war to attack Russian targets with nuclear warheads.

 

[niaz]

Well the price tag due to few thing in my opinion, one the B-52 is a absolute bomber concept, it is also gigantic compared to any other bombers, the design is nearly 60 odd years old building one of these on request is expensive, however, the USAF force has mostly refurbished these B-52H's and started using them, they are specialist bomber units, if you know the history of the UK bomber planes you will see that these kind of large bombers are mostly absolute, look at the Victor and Veliant they are more sophisticated bombers than the B-52H, however, they are now used as cargo planes, when they were designed, they were specialist bombers for the cold war to attack Russian targets with nuclear warheads.

The reason why the famed V-Bombers of the Royal Airforce were laid off and converted into tankers; was because UK defence was at that time geared to fighting USSR. It was considered far more cost effective to have sub-marine launched nuclear missiles strike force than have a manned nuclear bomber force. The policy decision was taken by the the Labour Govt under Harold Wilson in 1964.

 

[Interceptor]

^

Thanks Niaz thats what I didn't remember, this is your speciality the extra detail encouraging better debate, why is the B-52 still in operation, even though there are much more sleeker and advanced delivery systems developed.

 

[niaz]

B-52 is an excellent long range high altitude carpet bomber. They were used heavily in the Vietnam War in 60's. They were used in both the Iraqi wars and also in Afghanistan 40 years later.

IMO US strategy makers think that in future conflicts, a need exists
for a conventional and nuclear bomber; mainly to implement US decisions globally. B-52 fits that need.

 

[Tang0]

Congressional study from 2003 that decided to keep the B-52 running until 2040 (It was scheduled to be retired well before 2010)

From Wikipedia Summary

The Air Force intends to keep the B-52 in service until at least 2040, an unprecedented length of service for a military aircraft. B-52s are periodically refurbished at the USAF maintenance depots such as Tinker Air Force Base, Oklahoma.

The USAF continues to rely on the B-52 because it remains an effective and economical heavy bomber, particularly in the type of missions that have been conducted since the end of the Cold War, mainly against nations that have limited air defense capabilities. The B-52's capacity to "loiter" for extended periods over (or even well outside) the battlefield, while delivering precision standoff and direct fire munitions, has been a valuable asset in conflicts such as Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan.

The speed and stealth of the B-1 Lancer and B-2 Spirit have only been useful until enemy air defenses were destroyed, a task that has been swiftly achieved in recent conflicts. The B-52 boasts the highest mission capable rate of the three types of heavy bombers operated by the USAF. Whereas the B-1 averages a 53% ready rate, and the B-2 achieved a 26%, the B-52 averages 80%.

Link to study:
http://www.acq.osd.mil/dsb/reports/2004-06-b52h_re-engining.pdf

 

[shehbazi2001]

Going off from the B-52, I want to go to code system of the military.

While taking a quiz on the site of military channel, I read that japanese zero fighter was code-named as zeke. The reason being that code names were given to all types of japanese aircraft and the rules were,

Boy names for Fighters
Girl names for Bombers
Bird names for Gliders
Tree names for Trainers

It be would be interesting to know whether PAF and IAF also gives code names to various aircrafts of other side.

In the Middle East, the urdu conversation of our pilots was listened by IDF/AF, this means that the radio communication was not encrypted.

It also means that either we encrypt the communication or we use codes, so that even if someone intercepts the messages, they are not going to understand it. Perhaps for the added safety, we can use encrypted+coded messaging system.<

I want to share an interesting old method of top secret communication, perhaps used by ancient romans. It was to remove all the hair over the head of a slave, servant or soldier and then write the message over his head, then let the hair grow and then the agent was ready to be sent to deliver it.

The method was slow but the method seemed to be safe. But there was a limitation that if the king changed the decision during the hair growth period, everything went in vain.

 

[Muradk]

Well Iraqis had a simpler way shove the message into the soilders butt. Atleast saves times for something to grow.
In Arab war we spoke in Punjabi, Pusto regularly, but in Combat we spoke Arabic but not like you see in the movie TOP GUN , the dog fights starts and both lead and wingman and going frantic , no we had a simpler way.
Speak only needed and our arabic was better than the locals. IAF found out when we accidently spoke punjabi on a CAP mission. Till today my theory is that IAF didn't have the capabilities to listen to us but the US Carrier standing in the gulf could and they told them.

 

[shehbazi2001]

Radio Communications

When a pilot intercepts an intruder and escorts him out of his airspace, I think that he communicates with the intruding pilots and tells him to turn back. Now I think this communication is done on the International Frequency. I hope this frequency is known to all air forces of the world. Just to have an idea, whats that frequency?

When the Hakimullah forced the IAF Gnat to land, perhaps Hakim sahib did not talk to him on International Frequency because afterwards the Indian Pilots said that he mistook Pasroor strip for an indian one.

Secondly a pilot communicates with other fellow airborne pilots and ground controller. Is this communication between air force elements done on the same frequency? I mean with fellow aircraft and ground controller.......Because sometimes in wars, I read that the commanders were listening to the air combat on the ground.

Thirdly, a pilot needs to communicate with the Forward Air Controllers of army. Now I suppose the frequency for communication with army and navy shall be different than the one used by air force elements among themselves.

Fourth, there is mention of Emergency Frequency.....is it the same international frequency or this is another.......Emergency frequency seems to be for distress or mayday calls......

wikipedia says that the civilian aircraft emergency frequency is 121.5 MHz. Military aircraft use 243 MHz.

International Code of Signals (INTERCO) seems to be used by naval elements for martime signalling. What about International Aviation Code of Signals.

 

[shehbazi2001]

Visual Aircraft Signals

During many documentaries, I watched that wings movements (rolling right and then rolling left) were used as signals to the fellow or even saluts to opponent pilots.......what other movements can possibly be a signal by the formation leader to the rest of formation??? (eg start the attack run) ...thus avoiding the use of radio......


But perhaps other formation members cant use such signals because they are not visible to those who are flying ahead of them.

 

[Sam Dhanraj]

shehbazi,

Here you can find some standard Visual Communication Examples amongst others

Downloads - Latest additions

While I am sure that Murad Sir and X-Man would share some interesting visual signals of their own that they might have used...

 

[x_man]

Shahbazi

The frequencies 121.5 Mhz lies in VHF and 243.0 Mhz is in UHF band and are recognised an international emergency frequencies…..With few exceptions, military aircrafts use UHF frequencies because its range is shorter and message quality is clearer than VHF that is used by all civil traffic because of its longer ranges…..Trans Atlantic flights use HF band, that has even more range but voice quality is much poorer than UHF or VHF...Remember the rule...lower the frequency, higher the wavelength and farther the range..

All the civilian pilots are taught about interception procedures …we have already discussed all this in another thread earlier ( http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/9416-paf-scramble-time.html) .If you are looking for detailed hand signals….follow the below link..its a word document and explains the signals..
http://www.otto5.com/_spi/InterceptSignals.doc

To tell you frankly, with better COMINT / ELINT facilities on both sides, despite all the codes and secret jargon, we exactly know what IAF is doing and they know what we are upto…Each time pilot presses his transmission button, there’s someone who is recording it…call it Spy Vs Spy…The only thing that the enemy cant monitor, are the hand signals….

To avoid any unnecessary R/T, formation members use many hand signals from start till landing…and also in case of a radio failure , there are dedicated hand/finger signals to tell other member that whats your exact problem…

The sideways wing movement you mention is called Rocking the Wings and is used to draw the attention of other member in case of radio failure...

 

[Muradk]

Yes now the Technology is advanced enough to talk to each other if they like 99% dont like to talk hand signals are universal , in the back 80s There is no such communication, Pilots are totally deaf and D in the skies , WE forced landed 2 Afghan Migs in total there were 4 one got shot one damaged and the other 2 got into a pickel instaed of running back wards to his base he kept going inside PAK Air Space crossed Parachinar by that time orders were to shoot and they were easy targets GCI said SAMs are ready Get out the area. but the PAF pilot and his wing man said no wait let me try something he went aside the Mig and fired a shot burst and them lowered his gears, It took both the Migs couple of sec to lower there gears down , PAF pilot just said by pointing follow him and they both landed in Peshawar and them 4 F-16s brought them to Chaklala.

 

[shehbazi2001]

Ok thanks...thats what I wanted know....what I extract from both the posts of xman and Muradk is that its not conventional to talk to the intruder over the radio using international frequency......Perhaps it will only be possible if he also switches to that frequency......so the conventional method of communication with an intruder is hand signals or other visual aircraft movements supposing that the intruder is not in the mood of fighting.

 

[Blackpearl]

Aerial Communication via moarse code.

If somebody has seen the movie, 'Critical Decision or Executive Decision', SF personnel, on board the hijacked aircraft transmitted a short message through Elevator Position lights to a following F-15, not to shoot the aircraft, and ask for 10 more minutes. One of the SF personnel disconnected the power cable going to rear lights and then by simply making and breaking the contact, he generated a moarse code message (dash and dots). The pilot on board, interceptor, read the message as lights were switched on and off, . Now it is one of the possibilty (atleast theoratically) that leader, can send a meassage to his wingman, or following aircraft (3 ship/4 ship formation), by simply switching on and off aircarft position lights, by Light toggle switch. However, it can only be done once aircarft is at safe altitude and attitude as, one hand of the pilot will be on the toggle switch. The toggle switch must also be strong enough, to take this rigirous punishment, otherwise it may simply sheer off. The advantage is that aircarft may receive this message in any other fotrmation and do not require to be in Line Abrest formation, to visually see the leaders hand signal.

Practically, i dont thgink it is ever practised.

 

[shehbazi2001]

I want to know that where in Pakistan are stored those two aircrafts (Su-7+Mig-21) of Afghan Air Force that defected to Pakistan during Afghan War.

The Su-7 landed at Dalbandin strip on 20 Nov 1983 and Mig-21 landed in Kohat on 12 Oct 1986. In principle, they should be in PAF Museum but still it will be good if someone can verify.

I heard an interesting thing about the Su-7 that when examined by PAF, the radio communication equipment in that Russian-made Su-7 was of US origin. What can be the purpose of using US radio equipment by Russians? a deception or just looking for quality????

Also it would be nice to know if PAF has taken back the control of Dalbandin from US after Operation Enduring Freedom..........