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Air Force Chiefs leaves for China

China is building fighters for more than 50 years and J 31 is at testing. Technologies like dsi even Russia does not have on its fighters. So if I were you I wont be late for J31. TFX is ambitious but Turkeys first attempt for a total indigineous fighter and with tech transfer it is possible. But this makes spare parts production dependant on west. If you will have problems usa you will have problems with the fighter procurement.Still consider it for diversification with j31 backbone.

For jf17 conformal tanks can be added behind inlets that can store missiles. Inlets are already dsi and somewhat angled. From top aspect the fuselage is cylinder and vertical tail. That can be fixed by flattening top fuselage and V tail to eliminate vertical tail corner reflection while flying low against high alt targets.
The thing is Pakistan will never use only one country products. Even if they go for TFX still J31 and some futuristic JF-17 will continue to be purchased.
 
If that is the case then PAF would definitely be interesting.

Still some how I believe that it will be a milti-engine aircraft. This is the latest picture of the designer and if you do look at the model it does not clearly show the engines. But the design is similar to a twin engine one
View attachment 226722
It is a twin engine fighter, in jan 2015 Aselsan announced that they have signed a deal with eurojet and TFX will use a derivative of EJ200(engine currently used in Eurofighter). With the use of EJ200 Turkey intends to give TFX supercruise capability just like Eurofighter. Moreover ASELSAN is currently developing a highly advanced AESA radar which will use gallium nitride (GaN) technology for the TFX program. So now with a british engine once again it would be a problem that whether they'll allow turkey to export TFX to Pakistan with their engine?, a similar situation raised when Pakistan showed interest in Gripen. USA did not allowed Sweden to sell Gripen with american engine as at that time Pakistan was under arms embargo.

China is building fighters for more than 50 years and J 31 is at testing. Technologies like dsi even Russia does not have on its fighters. So if I were you I wont be late for J31. TFX is ambitious but Turkeys first attempt for a total indigineous fighter and with tech transfer it is possible. But this makes spare parts production dependant on west. If you will have problems usa you will have problems with the fighter procurement.Still consider it for diversification with j31 backbone.

For jf17 conformal tanks can be added behind inlets that can store missiles. Inlets are already dsi and somewhat angled. From top aspect the fuselage is cylinder and vertical tail. That can be fixed by flattening top fuselage and V tail to eliminate vertical tail corner reflection while flying low against high alt targets.
PAF would never go for just one fighter and stick to TAI TFX, they will certainly get a chinese 5th gen fighter whether J-20 or J-31 whatever China offers and suits us, even if in future USA PAK relations reach a point where they offer F-35 Pakistan wont turn down the offer.
 
It is a twin engine fighter, in jan 2015 Aselsan announced that they have signed a deal with eurojet and TFX will use a derivative of EJ200(engine currently used in Eurofighter). With the use of EJ200 Turkey intends to give TFX supercruise capability just like Eurofighter. Moreover ASELSAN is currently developing a highly advanced AESA radar which will use gallium nitride (GaN) technology for the TFX program. So now with a british engine once again it would be a problem that whether they'll allow turkey to export TFX to Pakistan with their engine?, a similar situation raised when Pakistan showed interest in Gripen. USA did not allowed Sweden to sell Gripen with american engine as at that time Pakistan was under arms embargo.


PAF would never go for just one fighter and stick to TAI TFX, they will certainly get a Chinese 5th gen fighter whether J-20 or J-31 whatever China offers and suits us, even if in future USA PAK relations reach a point where they offer F-35 Pakistan wont turn down the offer.
In a nut shell_____ hate to spoil the party but ain't gonna happen. From drawing board to a fifth generation fighter is at least 15-20 yrs. You are looking at 2-3billions$ in collaboration money and the chance that the product may still not be fit for use. So PAF wont take that risk at all. The only reason the Chinese are a much jucier offer is that they have done most of the graft work on the J20 and their trickle down technology transfer methodology reduces cost. It is a testament of economical pressures that PLAAF is not funding J31 but this is a venture by CATIC alone. This is why they are so eager to have PAF on board and PAF wants to bide their time to let them develop the platform before it jumps in. I dont think there would be any TOT as you guys like to call it but minor level depot maintenance
Araz
 
I dont think there would be any TOT as you guys like to call it but minor level depot maintenance
Well at the moment everyone knows that Pakistan neither has the budget nor the technology to built a 5th generation aircraft so they'll be more than happy if they are able to get their hands on a 5th gen aircraft in a couple of decades.
 
Well at the moment everyone knows that Pakistan neither has the budget nor the technology to built a 5th generation aircraft so they'll be more than happy if they are able to get their hands on a 5th gen aircraft in a couple of decades.
The fifth generation plane will be here by 2023-25. Any later and its time to do to it what we did to J10sand move to 6th generation. i have always thought that the fifth generation platforms are overrated as development in the Radar technology will bring the whole thing down like a house of cards. I think this is more likely to happen as these platforms are expensive to acquire, and maintain and once detected we will find that the utility and cost versus benefit graph will go right down in the boots. However this is my thinking and you are free to disagree.
Araz
 
It is a twin engine fighter, in jan 2015 Aselsan announced that they have signed a deal with eurojet and TFX will use a derivative of EJ200(engine currently used in Eurofighter). With the use of EJ200 Turkey intends to give TFX supercruise capability just like Eurofighter. Moreover ASELSAN is currently developing a highly advanced AESA radar which will use gallium nitride (GaN) technology for the TFX program. So now with a british engine once again it would be a problem that whether they'll allow turkey to export TFX to Pakistan with their engine?, a similar situation raised when Pakistan showed interest in Gripen. USA did not allowed Sweden to sell Gripen with american engine as at that time Pakistan was under arms embargo.

The said engine is EJ-220 which is going to be powering not just the TFX but also EFT Trench 3. Turkey knows that engines have costed them the deal of T-129 ATAK's so this time they have gone for alternates. These include a collaboration in a new Ukrainian engine and also development of a local Turkish engine. Both these engines are supposed to be ready for the first prototype by 2019. Turkey is targeting European market with the EJ-220 & those countries that have no issues in getting these. Where as for former USSR member states the Ukrainian engine and Turkish engine for those who do not want to be 100% sanction proof.

You are correct now Pakistan is not under sanctions so engines can be procured but the problem is these can be bought for JF-17's and then they could be renegotiated for any other aircraft they are procuring.

The only issue is if Pakistan is going for F-31's then which engine are they interested in? It would be a very wise decision to opt for an engine that can be used for all the aircraft in PAF at that time. Though a counter argument can be that PAF should have a multiple suppliers of engine to so that they can get as many engines as possible in case of war (black market option too).
 
The said engine is EJ-220 which is going to be powering not just the TFX but also EFT Trench 3. Turkey knows that engines have costed them the deal of T-129 ATAK's so this time they have gone for alternates. These include a collaboration in a new Ukrainian engine and also development of a local Turkish engine. Both these engines are supposed to be ready for the first prototype by 2019. Turkey is targeting European market with the EJ-220 & those countries that have no issues in getting these. Where as for former USSR member states the Ukrainian engine and Turkish engine for those who do not want to be 100% sanction proof.

You are correct now Pakistan is not under sanctions so engines can be procured but the problem is these can be bought for JF-17's and then they could be renegotiated for any other aircraft they are procuring.

The only issue is if Pakistan is going for F-31's then which engine are they interested in? It would be a very wise decision to opt for an engine that can be used for all the aircraft in PAF at that time. Though a counter argument can be that PAF should have a multiple suppliers of engine to so that they can get as many engines as possible in case of war (black market option too).
Considering the problems the Chinese have encountered with engines the Turkish venture will not materialize any time soon. As to the Ukrainian venture, the current situation in Ukraine and how long it lasts will determine the progress of all things Ukrainian. If it is a new project you are looking at 2025, if it is a modification then around 2020-23. If what we have been hearing from the red bear is true then the MA version to be completed by 2019 might be the best option for us considering the RD93 series and PAF's happiness with it. Alternately we will be looking forward with great enthusiasm towards our Chinese brethren for their offering around that time. I think it is more than likely that it will be RD93MA as we would already have had dealings with the Russians for 3-4 yrs directly and probably swing a local overhaul facility for them in house.The advantage of a Chinese offering would mostly be to get discounts plus local manufacturing of some parts. We will have to deal with them smartly to get what we want out of them.
 
In a nut shell_____ hate to spoil the party but ain't gonna happen. From drawing board to a fifth generation fighter is at least 15-20 yrs. You are looking at 2-3billions$ in collaboration money and the chance that the product may still not be fit for use. So PAF wont take that risk at all. The only reason the Chinese are a much jucier offer is that they have done most of the graft work on the J20 and their trickle down technology transfer methodology reduces cost. It is a testament of economical pressures that PLAAF is not funding J31 but this is a venture by CATIC alone. This is why they are so eager to have PAF on board and PAF wants to bide their time to let them develop the platform before it jumps in. I dont think there would be any TOT as you guys like to call it but minor level depot maintenance
Araz

Bro,
The thing that confuses me is you are saying Pakistan does not have $2-3 bil for a project but on the other hand you are saying China can give the J-31 or J-20 with TOT.

What we have been discussing in the last few pages is that PAF would like to have a single engine 5 th Gen fighter along with a multi-engine 5 th Gen. These aircraft could be a mix of western or eastern. I had suggested that if PAF could some how invest and proceed with the TFX single engine design then it could save a lot of research cost which is going to be spent on the current TFX multi-engine fighter aircraft.

It was also reported that PAF is considering the J-31 and there is also a possibility of a 5th Gen single engine designed by CATIC.

Both these projects can be made to work if Pakistan is able to get some king of soft loan because in the next 5-10 yrs the economy of Pakistan would be improving.

The fifth generation plane will be here by 2023-25. Any later and its time to do to it what we did to J10sand move to 6th generation. i have always thought that the fifth generation platforms are overrated as development in the Radar technology will bring the whole thing down like a house of cards. I think this is more likely to happen as these platforms are expensive to acquire, and maintain and once detected we will find that the utility and cost versus benefit graph will go right down in the boots. However this is my thinking and you are free to disagree.
Araz

Here again you are saying that PAF should be considering 6th Gen platforms. We all know that 6th Gen aircraft are nothing more than drones. Now the argument of having a pilot or not is for an other thread.

Having both these together is also not a problem and 5th gen are not going to end any time before 2050.

Till that time live in the moment:coffee:
 
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These include a collaboration in a new Ukrainian engine and also development of a local Turkish engine.
It is wise if they are offering 3 engines but out of those 3 only 1 exists. I don't doubt Turkey's capabilities but making jet engines isn't as easy as it may sound even China is struggling despite the resources and expertise it has, in a thread here I have read that the reason they are interested in Su-35 is because of its engine. So relaying on Turkey for a jet engine is a bit too early.
It would be a very wise decision to opt for an engine that can be used for all the aircraft in PAF at that time.
PAF has kept that in mind, Chinese are planning to use WS-13 in J-31 and PAF plans to replace RD-93 with WS-13 as well. So if all goes according to plan not all but majority of PAF jets will have same engine.
 
Bro,
The thing that confuses me is you are saying Pakistan does not have $2-3 bil for a project but on the other hand you are saying China can give the J-31 or J-20 with TOT.

What we have been discussing in the last few pages is that PAF would like to have a single engine 5 th Gen fighter along with a multi-engine 5 th Gen. These aircraft could be a mix of western or eastern. I had suggested that if PAF could some how invest and proceed with the TFX single engine design then it could save a lot of research cost which is going to be spent on the current TFX multi-engine fighter aircraft.

It was also reported that PAF is considering the J-31 and there is also a possibility of a 5th Gen single engine designed by CATIC.

Both these projects can be made to work if Pakistan is able to get some king of soft loan because in the next 5-10 yrs the economy of Pakistan would be improving.



Here again you are saying that PAF should be considering 6th Gen platforms. We all know that 6th Gen aircraft are nothing more than drones. Now the argument of having a pilot or not is for an other thread.

Having both these together is also not a problem and 5th gen are not going to end any time before 2050.

Till that time live in the moment:coffee:
You have misunderstood me. The question is not one of money but of wise spending of it. PAF is risk averse so will not indulge in a project which is resource intense with an unlikely outcome. In a nutshell it would rather spend 2-3 billion and get a ready platform than indulge in research(especially if we dont have much to contribute to it ) on one which has an uncertain outcome both from the platform point of view and financial outlay. No one is getting j20.J31/some other platform has been on the cards and most probably will be inducted post 2020. Given that J31 has flown already PAF will likely go for it rahter than design another platform with its own latency factored in hence my prediction of 2023-25 for induction of J31. The other thing you need to consider is what the state of scientific knowledge is going to be like in a decade. This will also be a factor in the decision making
On the engine issue, I have stated that PAF will not go for an EU engine for the very reason it wont go for a US engine. So the alternates are Chinese or Russian. PAF may choose one or the other. To me it seems that we would have been dealing with the Russians for 4-5 yrs by the time the Chinese come out with an appropriate engine and the likely scenario is PAF will pitch one against the other to get the best possible deal. However there are imponderables here which we have to take into account when making a prediction for the future. For instance, what happens if the Chinese dont come up with an engine that is trust worthy.
The single vs dual engine debate will carry on and we have to see but considering the problems which the F35 is encountering, we may bite the bullet and go for a twin engined platform.
A debate on the prospect of Pakistani economy improving is useless at this point in time as it is all conjecture with no solid backing. I have had this debate with many in 2007 when I said Pakistan has serious economic issues underlying and all this hoohaa about progress and economic boom is hogwash and I was booed all the way . Guess what happened post 2008. So lets talk about it once we have achieved it.
Fifth v/s 6th generation debate is one that I have an inkling will become more of a reality in a couple of years as the economic pressure bite in. the cost of running a fleet of fifth generation fighters and the human cost of their loss will slowly guide people towards it. It may be for another forum but the possibilities/permutations thereof are many and diverse and yet related so needed to be mentioned here.
I hope I have clarified my position.
Araz
 
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PAF should invest in future fighter projects with china and involve turkey also in it. in this way 3 forces combine experience can make a different product.
 
No idea. F-18s? Not sure about the affording part but if you have the money, sure.

  1. In FY 2013, the unit cost of an F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is $65.3 million(flyaway cost) or $80.7 million incl. support costs. The airframe costs $33.22 million, the two F414-GE-400 engines cost $9.64 million ($4.82 million each), and the avionics cost $9.32 million.Mar 25, 2015
i think we can afford 2 sqs of Hornets if we want ..
 
I have had this debate with many in 2007 when I said Pakistan has serious economic issues underlying and all this hoohaa about progress and economic boom is hogwash and I was booed all the way . Guess what happened post 2008. So lets talk about it once we have achieved it.
Araz

Hi,

The serious economic issues came out of the democracy movement and then Zardari govt-----.
 
  1. In FY 2013, the unit cost of an F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is $65.3 million(flyaway cost) or $80.7 million incl. support costs. The airframe costs $33.22 million, the two F414-GE-400 engines cost $9.64 million ($4.82 million each), and the avionics cost $9.32 million.Mar 25, 2015
i think we can afford 2 sqs of Hornets if we want ..

oho
no no
we should invest more and more in jf17 and make it a truly beast like gripen and rafale
rather than procuring f18, and with some terrible clauses bla bla u cant go outside pakistan whatever.
 
oho
no no
we should invest more and more in jf17 and make it a truly beast like gripen and rafale
rather than procuring f18, and with some terrible clauses bla bla u cant go outside pakistan whatever.

you have no enemy to fight out side Pakistan anyway..
plus no matter what you put in Jf-17 , its almost impossible for Jf to compete with Rafale ...
 

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