Ahmadis in Pakistan

[sulemani keeda]

one of these requirements is to accept Muhammad (PBUH) as the Last Prophet of Allah and that there will be no Prophet after him.
This is main cause of our difference with qadyanis. They dont believe in it.

1) who set these requirements?? If you say that scriptures did then there are many instances that scriptures provoke violence and justify killings. (no offence)

2) isnt just having faith in Allah almighty only qualifies for being a muslim?? Why the technicalities for?? Isnt religion a personal thing. A relation between self and god??

These technicalities kills the spirituality off the religion. Its like saying do these these these and only then you can consider yourself muslim. Like have 80% or above marks in exam and then you can apply for engineering.. Ahh these technicalities..

 

[Kompromat]

^^^

Who gets to decide whether anyone is muslim or not??

Quran and Hadith , we have "Crystal clear" set of belief its not Budhaism (No offense).

 

[mjnaushad]

are Shiites in the right when they kill the
Sunnis or is it the other way round? Who gave them this idea that by killing
they are doing God's work?

You are not shia nor sunni....And you dont know what are we talking about on this thread...Please read the whole thread then comment.

 

[Kompromat]

1) who set these requirements?? If you say that scriptures did then there are many instances that scriptures provoke violence and justify killings.

2) isnt just having faith in Allah almighty only qualifies for being a muslim?? Why the technicalities for?? Isnt religion a personal thing. A relation between self and god??

1: Oness of Allah
2: Lastness of His prophet Muhammad SAW.

You reject one you are gone!

 

[Spring Onion]

just go around & you will see people from every other sects declaring others as non mulisms

Dont twist the words we are not talking about which sect is saying what we are talking about. Neither we believe what they say.

We are talking about Quran and what Quran says. Quran clearly defines the requirements for being a Muslims.

my kalima is non of your concerns JJ, state defined who's muslim & who's not for their being

I dont care what Kalima you recite whether you are a Muslim or a qadyani or supporting qadyani beliefs. I absolutely have no concern with that.


My only concern is that its NOT The state who had defined who is a Muslim and who is not rather its Quran and Rasool who have defined it and its absolute there is no Other argument about it.


Trying to befool the world that qadyanis are declared as non-Muslims because the state had said so is WRONG.

State says so because thats what Quran defined.

 

[Xeric]

In my personal opinion they shouldnt be calling themselves Muslims, coz they are NOT. That's simple and easy - non adherence to the Seal of Prophethood (PBUH) - the dude is out of Islam. i think there life would be easier if they would stick with the word Qadiyani or Ahmadi. But then if they do this, they should be left alone.

But on the contrary if they would try contesting the Muslims and try proving themselves as THE Muslims, well that would be problematic. So till the time they stay within those defined limits i dont think the Muslims should have any issues with them.

As the Pakistani population mature up we dont see Shias, Wahabis etc facing any problems, one reason primarily being that they dont deny the basics of Islam, so by the same definition Qadiaynis wont face problems if they declare themselves as non Muslims and they can enjoy all they want as other non Muslims do in Pakistan.

As Jana pointed out that there isnt a death penalty to apostasy in Islam, though there are a few who impose a death penalty on someone who renounces Islam. The most pertinent Quranic verse in this context is (thats the one i could find so it isnt the final say) Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: They shall have none on earth to protect or help them. 9:74. So it is Allah who would punish them severely both in this life and Hereafter, and being Muslims we do believe that punishments (in various forms) can be awarded while we are alive. As this is not the topic right now so i would skip it for now, but the aim of mentioning this all was to say the following;

Qadiyanis may not be committing apostasy as they were not Muslims at any point of time! Apostasy entails a MUSLIM renouncing Islam, so as Qadiyainis are not Muslims so there shouldnt be an issue in this regards.

Simple.

 

[Comet]

Please state precisely what are the discrimination. Enough with the lectures. I need to know all those things that are happening wrong with the Qadiyanis.

We need to distinguish between two different things that mingled together.

1) State has right to define Muslim and Non-Muslims.
2) The mentality of Public about Qadiyanis.

 

[blain2]

I still have two unanswered questions, can somebody enlighten me please

1) I am yet to see any poor Ahmedi in my life. I wonder why all Ahmedis are so rich? Have you ever seen any poor Ahmedi

Its because they take care of their community. They cannot be faulted for that and usually when a community is not very large, community members can do such things. I give them high marks for this and it should be lauded because we have that many less Pakistanis depending on a non-existing government support infrastructure.

2) If there is so much of discrimination for Ahmedis in Pakistan then please tell me if you have ever seen any Ahmedi being discriminated in your practical experience? I know a lot of Ahmedis and some of them are business men while others are working on some of the top posts in Pakistan. I am yet to see any Ahmedi suffering from discrimination in my life

Please guide me

Ahmedis are not discriminated in professional and non-religious settings. They have presence in all of the governmental and private entities and it is because they provide good schooling and assistance to their community members. They have produced good, decent folks in every walk of Pakistani life. I know some very fine ones in uniform.

These are issues with which we should not be concerned. I think the main issue is that of mainstream Muslims not wanting to get misrepresented and the Ahmedi need to find acceptance by the mainstream Islam.

 

[Awesome]

This entire thread is against rules because if you are allowing this then you have to open one on Shias as well as Sunnis as more of them have been killed on such issues.

This forum promotes equality and tolerance of all Pakistanis. The causes of Human rights abuses on all Pakistanis have routinely been proudly championed by this forum.

The incident was purely terrorism related and it was the first time that qadyanis have been targeted in large number or in suicide bombing that is part of terrorism. Muslims have been targeted more than them.

This thread is not about anyone incident. Its about the treatment meted out to Ahmedis by the state and law.

Making it a sticky thread is proving wrong intentions.

In fact its simply preventing 10-20 threads from opening up over and over, less clutter, more discussion. Sticky is not some award of honor.

NO its not what we want or what we want them to practice. Quran clearly states the requirement for being a Muslim.

The Quran can, the constitution should not.

WHY CANT YOU GO and read and find the difference between a Muslim and NON-Muslim.

That is also not in discussion here. The state can't pass judgments on matters of faith. You can, to yourself and anybody who will listen to you. Not the state.

We are not forcing them NOT to practice what they believe we are only Pointing out the fitna which was started by Britishers by giving them money.

These are all your beliefs, they don't believe they were created by the British. They can believe and proclaim what they believe, you can what you belief.

We Muslims have all the rights to defend our basic beliefs and our faith against lies and distortion by Non-Muslims.

Sure why not? And they have the right to argue against the Muslims. Whoever has the better argument, wins.

We have the right NOT to accept qadyanis as Muslims because its Divine orders and not our personal likes or dislikes.

Are they asking anyone's hand in marriage that your acceptance is even a question here? You can call them King Kong for all they care. But they can call themselves whatever they want.

So qadyanis should not make lies thats what our point is.

What if somebody started saying everything Muslims say is a lie? This is all a matter of faith. You can't bring Allah to testify that Muslims are correct and Ahmedis are wrong? What if someone said "Each time Muslims say Allah exists, lets kill them for that is a lie".

And this is not even hypothetical, we had to run from the Quraysh when they did that to us, today you're fighting so hard to emulate the Quraysh.

Tomorrow 100 more false prophets will come up and you will ask us to accept them in the name of rights and freedom???????

Again no one is saying accept them, let them say what they want, then you can reject what they say but you can't throw them in jail for saying what they want.

 

[Spring Onion]

1) who set these requirements?? If you say that scriptures did then there are many instances that scriptures provoke violence and justify killings. (no offence)

NO scriptures do not provoke violence unless there is war and in war what we do ? Everyone tries to take down his enemy as that is the way to save yourself from defeat. Again there are some rules even for the wars.

2) isnt just having faith in Allah almighty only qualifies for being a muslim?? Why the technicalities for?? Isnt religion a personal thing. A relation between self and god??

These technicalities kills the spirituality off the religion. Its like saying do these these these and only then you can consider yourself muslim. Like have 80% or above marks in exam and then you can apply for engineering.. Ahh these technicalities..

How do you define technicalities in Hinduism and its cast system????????


Please explain to me

 

[Xeric]

Itn't that Instutionalized Discrimination enshrined in the constitution of pakistan.

How can you say everyone is treated equally.

Hell with you!

Dont you dare troll with me.

We arent discussing the 'discriminatory' (as if there are any) laws against all non Muslims in Pakistan, but those specific to Qadiyanis.

 

[mjnaushad]

^^^

Who gets to decide whether anyone is muslim or not??

The 6 Kalimas

 

[sonicboom]

In my personal opinion they shouldnt be calling themselves Muslims, coz they are NOT. That's simple and easy - non adherence to the Seal of Prophethood (PBUH) - the dude is out of Islam. i think there life would be easier if they would stick with the word Qadiyani or Ahmadi. But then if they do this, they should be left alone.

But on the contrary if they would try contesting the Muslims and try proving themselves as THE Muslims, well that would be problematic. So till the time they stay within those defined limits i dont think the Muslims should have any issues with them.

As the Pakistani population mature up we dont see Shias, Wahabis etc facing any problems, one reason primarily being that they dont deny the basics of Islam, so by the same definition Qadiaynis wont face problems if they declare themselves as non Muslims and they can enjoy all they want as other non Muslims do in Pakistan.

As Jana pointed out that there isnt a death penalty to apostasy in Islam, though there are a few who impose a death penalty on someone who renounces Islam. The most pertinent Quranic verse in this context is (thats the one i could find so it isnt the final say) Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: They shall have none on earth to protect or help them. 9:74. So it is Allah who would punish them severely both in this life and Hereafter, and being Muslims we do believe that punishments (in various forms) can be awarded while we are alive. As this is not the topic right now so i would skip it for now, but the aim of mentioning this all was to say the following;

Qadiyanis may not be committing apostasy as they were not Muslims at any point of time! Apostasy entails a MUSLIM renouncing Islam, so as Qadiyainis are not Muslims so there shouldnt be an issue in this regards.

Simple.

Sir: very well said! Thanks

 

[sulemani keeda]

No offence but drawing pictures of people is haram in Islam. Even this is technicality. A rigidity by all means.

My final POV is that if Ahmadis believe that the almighty is Allah then they are muslims. No technicalities involved.

Scriptures say women should wear burqa. If you violate do become less of a muslim?? Arent the modern women muslims then?? Why so much of partiality for Ahmadis for having their own view in some technical aspects of scriptures??

Technical rigidity must not blind the spirituality involved in religion.

 

[Kompromat]

My Personal view is that they should not be allowed to call themselves Muslims neither their places of worships should be Called mosques as this creates hatred and is not fair for Muslims too.

They should be entitled to all services and must be provided security of all kinds and there should be laws to defend their freedom and liberty .