Ahmadis in Pakistan

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

They can call what they want to call but the problem is they are selling lies to the world.

It is none of your business what they are selling - some Sunni scholars also claim Shia are 'selling lies to the world', so next we'll see the State calling Shia non-Muslims and open discrimination against them?

Even an ignorant, uneducated Muslim knows well that for becoming a Muslim you have to accept the finality of Prophethood of Last Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), there is no prohphet after him.

Good, then there should be no issue with the Ahmadis practicing their faith as they please and calling themselves what they wish since 'even ignorant, uneducated Muslims' know the difference.

And anyone who claims is a a kazzab and liar and he/she would be out of Islam.

That is for Allah to decide, since only He knows the heart of an individual, and not for mortals on this earth.

Mosques are worship places for Muslims and if non-Muslims want to call their worship places as moques or masjids they can but if they are doing so just to fool the world and prove that they are Muslims then here is the difference.

That is absurd - they think themselves Muslims - you have no right to force your opinion upon them. You can preach your beliefs in a peaceful manner that Ahmadi beliefs are not true (as can they) but you have no right to force your religious beliefs on another community by passing laws against them.

OK all the qadyani members on the forum just recite the kalima tayabba or accept that Muhammad (PBUH) is the last prophet of Allah and there is no Prophet after him. Then i will accept you as Muslims. And those who have claimed false prophethood after Muhammad (PBUH) are liars and kazzabs. Are you ready to do that?????

Off topic - you have no right to place a test on being a Muslim - this is solely Allah's responsibility.

We/I condemn these bigots for such kinds of violence and here i will support security and safety for qadyanis.

There is no precedent of killings of murdits in Islam and Quran so I do NOT support this bigotry.

Glad to here that.

We are ok with that as Quran clearly says that there is no compulsion in faith .

Then why are we forcing Ahmadis to practice their faith as WE want (compulsion) and placing restrictions on how they practice it?

Quran also clarifies who is a Muslim and who is NOT so as per Quran we are not ready to accept murdits as Muslims.

Quran does not state that people have the right to judge whether someone is a Muslim or not and pass laws on that issue - using your argument the State should be judging every individual on whether he is 'Muslim' or not, if he drinks, committed a crime, does not have a beard, committed adultery etc. etc.

There is no instruction in the Quran calling for ordinary people, scholars or politicians, to pass judgment on the faith of other people - that is solely up to Allah.

 

[Spring Onion]

Jana, I deleted the posts of an Ahmadi poster arguing why his faith is true and why they are Muslims - whether they are Muslims or not is a theological discussion and is not in the scope of this thread. I am not concerned about what you want to call them, but I am concerned about the State forcing them to not practice their faith as they wish to.

This entire thread is against rules because if you are allowing this then you have to open one on Shias as well as Sunnis as more of them have been killed on such issues.


The incident was purely terrorism related and it was the first time that qadyanis have been targeted in large number or in suicide bombing that is part of terrorism. Muslims have been targeted more than them.


Making it a sticky thread is proving wrong intentions.

Yes, that is a denial of basic rights - we are forcing upon a community what WE think they should believe and how WE think they should practice their religion. How can you not see that?

NO its not what we want or what we want them to practice. Quran clearly states the requirement for being a Muslim.

WHY CANT YOU GO and read and find the difference between a Muslim and NON-Muslim.


We are not forcing them NOT to practice what they believe we are only Pointing out the fitna which was started by Britishers by giving them money.

We Muslims have all the rights to defend our basic beliefs and our faith against lies and distortion by Non-Muslims.

We have the right NOT to accept qadyanis as Muslims because its Divine orders and not our personal likes or dislikes.

Did you not read the comments by an Ahmadi mother in one of the articles she posted, on how mothers have to warn their children (children for Gods sake) to not speak a word about their faith and what they consider it to be because they might be imprisoned or lynched by a mob?

What kind of freedom is this? Do you honestly believe that this is not a denial of their rights and the majority forcing its beliefs upon them? No where in the Quran is this type of behavior, that we have subjected upon the Ahmadis, condoned. We have violated some of the most crucial instructions of the Quran of 'equality and non compulsion in religion'.

I have already replied this point in another post.

We do not support such bigotry against qadyanis.

and NO Quran does NOT allow such bigotry as well.


Quran also clearly states who is a Muslim and who is NOT.

So qadyanis should not make lies thats what our point is.

Tomorrow 100 more false prophets will come up and you will ask us to accept them in the name of rights and freedom???????


I ask all my Muslim brothers here to report the thread.

Period

 

[Spring Onion]

It is none of your business what they are selling - some Sunni scholars also claim Shia are 'selling lies to the world', so next we'll see the State calling Shia non-Muslims and open discrimination against them?


Good, then there should be no issue with the Ahmadis practicing their faith as they please and calling themselves what they wish since 'even ignorant, uneducated Muslims' know the difference.

That is for Allah to decide, since only He knows the heart of an individual, and not for mortals on this earth.

That is absurd - they think themselves Muslims - you have no right to force your opinion upon them. You can preach your beliefs in a peaceful manner that Ahmadi beliefs are not true (as can they) but you have no right to force your religious beliefs on another community by passing laws against them.

Off topic - you have no right to place a test on being a Muslim - this is solely Allah's responsibility.

Glad to here that.

Then why are we forcing Ahmadis to practice their faith as WE want (compulsion) and placing restrictions on how they practice it?

Quran does not state that people have the right to judge whether someone is a Muslim or not and pass laws on that issue - using your argument the State should be judging every individual on whether he is 'Muslim' or not, if he drinks, committed a crime, does not have a beard, committed adultery etc. etc.

There is no instruction in the Quran calling for ordinary people, scholars or politicians, to pass judgment on the faith of other people - that is solely up to Allah.

i am sad and disappointed that you do not know what Quran says about who is a Muslim and who is Not.


Shias do believe in finality of prophethood on Last Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and Oneness of Allah. Thats it.


And its not me who is passing the test on anyone its a clear order from Allah if anyone wish to be a Muslim he/she should accept the finality of Prophethood.


anyway being a Muslim its my responsibility to defend the facts about finality of Prophethood and i will do that at all costs.

You are free to air your view.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

60 years & we are still in a confusion who's Muslim & who's not...

If believe Quaid as your leader yu must also stand by his words when in response to getting Ahmadis declaring non muslims he said,'Who am i to declare a person non muslim when he himself claims to be a Muslim"

State is no one to define who's Muslim & who's not, amalgamation of religion
with state will lead to disaster & people will see everything from lens of religion, ZA did a perfect stunt to get Mullahs on his side by declaring Ahmadis non Muslims, someone has rightly said 'religion is regarded by common people as true & my rulers as useful'

 

[Spring Onion]

Yes ofcourse

Human beings asman se tapak pade hain achanak.

kam az kam bandroon say nahi paida howay. thats our view.

 

[Kompromat]

AM Why dont Allah come down himself to sort out all of the Issues ?

When you say that Everything is at Allah SWT i agree 100% but if so why did he bothered to send his Message , why did he sent messengers ?

Why didn't he just came down and said I am your lord and this right and this is wrong ?

You tell me why did Prophet SAW Said that there would be over 30 Lairs within my people and they will do nothing but harm to the Islam , people will follow them but they would be Wrong as there is no Prophet after me.

Why did he Asked Muslims to Fight against Muslema kazzab ?? why didn't he left it to Allah SWT ???

Why did he said that who wont follow the basic tenants of Islam would no longer be a Muslim ??

You tell me would you accept if i stand up and say (Nauzbillah) that i am a prophet ?? would you follow me or you would stand against me or leave me to spread my lies ??

I know why Ahmadis have Kicked out the Concept of Jihad as if they do the people will fight back and since it was created to enslave people why would you arm them with a weapon like Jihad ??

You tell me if someone stands up and create their own hadith , own translation of Quran tailored to serve their needs and claim to be a Prophet would it be right or wrong ??

We are allowed to Judge "Fitna" amongst us and not leave everything on Allah SWT as everything happens with his will anyway .

what you say?

 

[Xeric]

Qadiaynis are non Muslims and should be treated like just any other non Muslim in Pakistan but without the prejudice. Period.

This doesnt include killing or threatening them. Afterall they also have human rights.

The normal rules that apply to any other non Muslim Pakistani (cant hold the appointment of PM etc) are applicable to them.

 

[Hyde]

60 years & we are still in a confusion who's Muslim & who's not...

If believe Quaid as your leader yu must also stand by his words when in response to getting Ahmadis declaring non muslims he said,'Who am i to declare a person non muslim when he himself claims to be a Muslim"

any proof?

 

[blain2]

I am no expert on this matter, however I think the underlying point with the Ahmedi issue is that due to the basis of their beliefs, which diverge from those of mainstream Islam, they cannot call themselves Muslims or say that their faith is Islam without hurting the sentiments of many mainstream Muslims.

Islam has specific guidance on not questioning the seal of prophet-hood but I think this is where the Ahmedis diverge (they do say that their spiritual leader was a reformer, however if you read some of their texts, there is a difference there).

Ahmedis should have all the right in the world to practice their religion with freedom in Pakistan, in security but also with an understanding that their beliefs are different and when they use the word Islam to propagate their beliefs, then it becomes an issue of misrepresentation for the mainstream Muslims.

The reason there was a campaign against Musailima in the times of Abu Bakr RA is a clear example that someone disagreeing with the seal of prophet hood is not in line with mainstream Islam. For those of us who have seen the Ahmedi teachings and beliefs from up close, and I respect them for having and sticking to their beliefs, it is quite clear that there are differences there between mainstream Islam and them.

This is the reason that there is an issue with allowing Ahmedis to call themselves Muslims and represent their faith as mainstream Islam. I have always had Ahmedi friends and usually we never talk about faith. However when some discussions have come up, I think there is a difference and usually I was not convinced by their argument, but I never doubted their sincerity as good regular folks with good intentions, however I do not think its my business to force anyone to change over either through verbal or physical means, which I believe is where the jahalat of some of the extremist and violent groups comes in.

What must and absolutely stop is any type of physical threat to this community. For as long as differences are left to debate, its fine and this has been the way of the past. It is indeed the GoP's responsibility to ensure they are protected and also put the groups, taking to violence, out of commission.

I see the point about why it should not be anyone's business to tell Ahmedis they are not Muslims as the Quaid-e-Azam would not have bothered about such things and this how he wanted Pakistan to be. However I think what could have been is different from what it is. I think we can debate about how things could have been but that does not help resolve the issue on hand which is the violence and threats against the Ahmedis.

I think mutual respect from both sides for each other's beliefs, with the understanding that there are differences, is the way forward.

 

[Spring Onion]

60 years & we are still in a confusion who's Muslim & who's not...

If believe Quaid as your leader yu must also stand by his words when in response to getting Ahmadis declaring non muslims he said,'Who am i to declare a person non muslim when he himself claims to be a Muslim"

State is no one to define who's Muslim & who's not, amalgamation of religion
with state will lead to disaster & people will see everything from lens of religion, ZA did a perfect stunt to get Mullahs on his side by declaring Ahmadis non Muslims, someone has rightly said 'religion is regarded by common people as true & my rulers as useful'

Confusion ??????????? what confusion ??

what kalima do you recite ???


There is NO confusion. Its NOT the state who is defining who is a Muslim and who is not. ITS what the Quran and Rasool (PBUH) said.


Tell me do you disagree on finality of Prophethood??? If yes than i have no issue what you believe.

 

[Dr.Evil]

The normal rules that apply to any other non Muslim Pakistani (cant hold the appointment of PM etc) are applicable to them.

Itn't that Instutionalized Discrimination enshrined in the constitution of pakistan.

How can you say everyone is treated equally.

 

[Spring Onion]

I am no expert on this matter, however I think the underlying point with the Ahmedi issue is that due to the basis of their beliefs, which diverge from those of mainstream Islam, they cannot call themselves Muslims or say that their faith is Islam without hurting the sentiments of many mainstream Muslims.

Islam has specific guidance on not questioning the seal of prophet-hood but I think this is where the Ahmedis diverge (they do say that their spiritual leader was a reformer, however if you read some of their texts, there is a difference there).

Ahmedis should have all the right in the world to practice their religion with freedom in Pakistan, in security but also with an understanding that their beliefs are different and when they use the word Islam to propagate their beliefs, then it becomes an issue of misrepresentation for the mainstream Muslims.

The reason there was a campaign against Musailima in the times of Abu Bakr RA is a clear example that someone disagreeing with the seal of prophet hood is not in line with mainstream Islam. For those of us who have seen the Ahmedi teachings and beliefs from up close, and I respect them for having and sticking to their beliefs, it is quite clear that there are differences there between mainstream Islam and them.

This is the reason that there is an issue with allowing Ahmedis to call themselves Muslims and represent their faith as mainstream Islam. I have always had Ahmedi friends and usually we never talk about faith. However when some discussions have come up, I think there is a difference and usually I was not convinced by their argument, but I never doubted their sincerity as good regular folks with good intentions.

What must and absolutely stop is any type of physical threat to this community. For as long as differences are left to debate, its fine and this has been the way of the past. It is indeed the GoP's responsibility to ensure they are protected and also put the groups, taking to violence, out of commission.

Thank you for putting it in sober words. Please tell this thing to Agno and those who are bent upon calling us Muslims as supporters of violence just because we are standing for difference between Islam and qadyani beliefs.

None of us here have supported violence against them then why discriminating against us?

 

[rohailmalhi]

Making it a sticky thread is proving wrong intentions.



I ask all my Muslim brothers here to report the thread.

Jana sister can u tell me how to report this thread .Coz it just nothing but the hippocracy of Ahmadis .
I dont know they have everything in this Pakistan .Every big post , ahmadi is there enjoying and even thn they make hue and cry , such a hippocrates .
and by doing this they aint doing any good to Pakistan .

 

[sulemani keeda]

^^^

Who gets to decide whether anyone is muslim or not??

 

[Hyde]

I still have two unanswered questions, can somebody enlighten me please

1) I am yet to see any poor Ahmedi in my life. I wonder why all Ahmedis are so rich? Have you ever seen any poor Ahmedi

2) If there is so much of discrimination for Ahmedis in Pakistan then please tell me if you have ever seen any Ahmedi being discriminated in your practical experience? I know a lot of Ahmedis and some of them are business men while others are working on some of the top posts in Pakistan. I am yet to see any Ahmedi suffering from discrimination in my life

Please guide me