Ahmadis community is facing dire threat

[T-Faz]

I surely dont know about the private funeral where their was any or not, maybe Deobandi do this propaganda, however if anyone knows Shabbir Ahmad Usmani he was indeed pluralist and least controversial,

and the reason why Zafar ullah didnot say the funeral was not that Usmani would have stopped him, but because by thankless Zafar ullah was a Qadiyani and by his views Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah was a kafir.

You don't know a lot which I have stated before too.

Learn:

I was told by a very learned Shia gentleman that when Jinnah died two funerals were held: a private family funeral according to Ithna Ashari Shia rites led by Mufti Jaffar Hussain and a public funeral according to Sunni rites led by Shaikh ul Islam Maulana Shabbir Ahmed Usmani.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

And no, you are making up things again, Shabbir Ahmed Usmani had written against Ahmadi's and that is the reason why.

Zafarullah prayed in the private family funeral, this can be confirmed by Jinnahs nephew Ismail Merchant and his daughter Dina.

---------- Post added at 10:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 PM ----------

you are making it too simple, get a taste of practical life, get hold of some "holy books of Qadaiyani" and read it for yourself whats the status if you dont believe him to be apostle,

as far as definition of muslim is concern by Ijmah it would be accepted by followers of Shafi school of thought.

yes khalid hussain one of the best ISI men...

All these posts and not one credible reference.

Maybe all that brainwashing at PTI by JI has done you in.

 

[pak-marine]

Can I have an example of this?
Can I see some proof, I would love to see it.

yar weak memory hai app ki let me remind you how the hero mujahid trying to kill un-armed ahmedis in their mosque was apprehended by the worshippers later on was totured and beaten up by the mob of people who caught him .. ahmedis have blood on their hands

 

[Leader]

You don't know a lot which I have stated before too.

Learn:



Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

And no, you are making up things again, Shabbir Ahmed Usmani had written against Ahmadi's and that is the reason why.

Zafarullah prayed in the private family funeral, this can be confirmed by Jinnahs nephew Ismail Merchant and his daughter Dina.

like I said if you knew Shabbir Ahmad Usmani, or in case anyone, its even against the ethics to push someone out... it is well written and known fact that Zafar ullah kept himself away from funeral prayer due to his own belief...

maybe his family had decided to give a funeral to satisfy their own beliefs, or its a common propaganda done by deobandis as well, in either way it shows the greatness of Jinnah that he asked Usmani the least controversial to conduct his funeral prayers.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

weak writ of the state... I stated that in my first post...

But that 'weak writ' does not stop the State from 'punishing' Ahamdis for violating laws that are themselves a violation of the basic human rights of Ahmadis.

well, give a try to debate, by their definition given to them by Mirza Gulam Ahmad Pervaiz Qadiyani if you dont believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Pervaiz Qadiyani as the Apostle of Allah, you are a Kafir.

You didn't comprehend my previous comment - I don't really given a hoot whether some sect/faith or the other considers me 'Kaafir', provided that such views remain in the personal domain, and are not used to discriminate against me and promote violence against me.

The State of Pakistani openly discriminates against Ahamdis because of their beliefs.

now if you know, historically, when this sect came into being... it divided families... even today my father's uncle's blah blah...who is my cousin in some way, living in our village, is a Qadiyani... what happens is when you try to convince the other... and like I said its more than enough to spark a muslim that Prophet Muhammad was not the final prophet, and that if you dont believe in Mirza Gulam Ahmad pervaiz qadiyani to be the apostle you are a kafir... Bang !!

Religious beliefs only 'divide families' when you allow them to - people should not be judged on their faith, but on how they interact with you and others. Despise someone who is a murderer or thief, not someone who practices a different faith.

still the reasons vary how things flame up... put yourself like a layman in a situation where there is NO chance of agreement... ??

I put my self in that 'situation' every day when I engage in debate on these forums, whether on religion, national politics or geo-politics. The response in real life, as on this forum, should be similar - if the other side is unconvinced, agree to disagree and move on. In real life relationships between people cannot and should not be defined merely by disagreements over religious and political issues.

It wasnot bhutto who decided it, the debate took place in NA, their representative had the chance to plea his case,

Just because the majority in the NA chose to pass laws institutionalizing bigotry and discrimination against a particular community does not make the laws either constitutional or correct.

This kind of discrimination against a minority (Muslims) by a majority (Hindus) was one major reason behind creating Pakistan, and now we have done exactly that which we wished to escape from on another minority community.

though I think it should have been that they should have been declared a sect who doesnot believe in finality of Prophethood on Prophet Muhammad. it would have been less problematic....

The State should not be 'declaring' anything when it comes to personal religious beliefs. The job of the State is to provide development, security, justice and equal opportunities to all citizens so that all have a chance to prosper, not just 'some Islamic sects'.

 

[pak-marine]

It's amazing to hear the "Killer Party MQM" who has been killing indiscrimanately people from all walks of life talk about some invisible threat to the "Ahmedi's". Why don't you guys start protecting them besides killing other Pakistanais and muslims. Hypocrites.

MQM kaha say agai beech main ...... ?

 

[T-Faz]

like I said if you knew Shabbir Ahmad Usmani, or in case anyone, its even against the ethics to push someone out... it is well written and known fact that Zafar ullah kept himself away from funeral prayer due to his own belief...

maybe his family had decided to give a funeral to satisfy their own beliefs, or its a common propaganda done by deobandis as well, in either way it shows the greatness of Jinnah that he asked Usmani the least controversial to conduct his funeral prayers.

Lol, you clearly do not know anything.

Sparklingway posted a rare picture a few months ago which showed Zafarullah sitting on the floor at Jinnah's funeral with a few men in a corner while others prayed.

He had in fact attended the funeral in person but some men including zafarullah did not pray and later went to the family home to take part in private prayers.

 

[Leader]

But that 'weak writ' does not stop the State from 'punishing' Ahamdis for violating laws that are themselves a violation of the basic human rights of Ahmadis.

I dont think so there is any discrimination in it. its factual. if you dont believe in finality of the prophet, you dont qualify to be part of the mainstream Islamic understanding...its the right of the majority that their way of life should be saved as much as possible... if tomorrow a group comes up saying we dont believe in God, we dont believe in Prophet but we like the word Islam to use for our rituals that we only perform in punjab, should their usage of word Islam make any sense? when you are not evolving around the centre (mainstream Islamic understanding), and have a spin of your own self created centre, its bound to evolve into something different then the original... and I dont think so those in Karachi that worship Ali as Spirit of Allah or Allah in humanly form in Ali, either qualify to be faithful muslims, yet dil ka hal Allah janta hai...that is why they should have been declared a sect/cult.

are the ahmadis mentioned in the law to be declared non-muslims ? if that is so, it shouldnot have been explicit... and like I said they should have been declared as sect.

You didn't comprehend my previous comment - I don't really given a hoot whether some sect/faith or the other considers me 'Kaafir', provided that such views remain in the personal domain, and are not used to discriminate against me and promote violence against me.

The State of Pakistani openly discriminates against Ahamdis because of their beliefs.

I asked you to put yourself in shoes of a layman, and then sketch how it goes there...

Religious beliefs only 'divide families' when you allow them to - people should not be judged on their faith, but on how they interact with you and others. Despise someone who is a murderer or thief, not someone who practices a different faith.

excellent, wonderful.....but not practical yet... had it been so simple, we wouldnot even had a single murder on this earth... have you forgotten the lynching of two boys in Sialkot ??? it was the best way to teach a lesson to a Sunni Imam masjid (grand father) for his speeches... by whom ?? just forget it...

I put my self in that 'situation' every day when I engage in debate on these forums, whether on religion, national politics or geo-politics. The response in real life, as on this forum, should be similar - if the other side is unconvinced, agree to disagree and move on. In real life relationships between people cannot and should not be defined merely by disagreements over religious and political issues.

as far as religious matters are concern, I hardly doubt that English speaking class has any great differences, rather nothing but ego on the forum to be victorious !!

Just because the majority in the NA chose to pass laws institutionalizing bigotry and discrimination against a particular community does not make the laws either constitutional or correct.

This kind of discrimination against a minority (Muslims) by a majority (Hindus) was one major reason behind creating Pakistan, and now we have done exactly that which we wished to escape from on another minority community.

like I said they should have been declared a sect, it would have done it. a win win situation...

The State should not be 'declaring' anything when it comes to personal religious beliefs. The job of the State is to provide development, security, justice and equal opportunities to all citizens so that all have a chance to prosper, not just 'some Islamic sects'.

unfortunately or fortunately Islam is deen, and majority's right cannot be overlooked for a minority... as far as keeping a view is concern, surely the stronger the writ of the state, the stronger the law and order situation...

if you want a secular country based division of the world's politica map, then what you will have to do is, get rid of Hadith and Quran... as these are the major sources of Islamic learning... maybe you know this, that is why you turned agnostic something...

 

[Leader]

Lol, you clearly do not know anything.

Sparklingway posted a rare picture a few months ago which showed Zafarullah sitting on the floor at Jinnah's funeral with a few men in a corner while others prayed.

He had in fact attended the funeral in person but some men including zafarullah did not pray and later went to the family home to take part in private prayers.

oh yes I have seen it a thousand times, and its a clear proof that he with accordance to his belief preferred not to say the "funeral prayer", he was not refused to participate, it was his decision.

 

[Leader]

by stating the untold part of the story as it is in Punjab, It is essential to mention the religious zealots part too,which is definitely a threat to any minority....whose actions by all means should be and must be condemned in strongest possible manner, rather I hold this as per my understanding of Islam, that if a minority is not protected in Islamic state, it has no rightful claim to be called an Islamic state.

 

[Thor]

self delete

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Poor Ahmediyas.

And they are the intelligent part of Pakistan if one goes through their history in Pakistan!

---------- Post added at 01:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:09 AM ----------

I think there needs to be an understanding of tolerance when provoked by all parties........the religious students themselves, are students of Islam, not extremists or fundamentalists, otherwise the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) himself would be seen as one in the eyes of the West......however Ahmadis too should understand that when a Prophet like Jesus is called an alcoholic, who fondled with prostitutes and whose family line is one of prostitutes then they should not be surprised at provoking anger, espcially when the abuse goes to such levels that goes beyond a healthy debate into a straight forward point of insult. I am not going to into the other insults and claims made here.......but what the Ahmadis have tried desparately to hide this from the West so as the masses dont know hasn't worked, and they must answer to these claims by MGA.........

Question for scholars is how the Sahaba dealt with such a situation during their time on the directions of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)..........

Jesus; family line is of prostitutes?

Do you want to start a religious debate here on Mohamed vs Jesus?

 

[Thor]

self delete

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

I do believe that the institutionalized ''marginalization'' of the Ahmedi community is a stupid policy. They are Pakistani citizens.

this policy of declaring them non-Muslims is a silly one in my opinion --regardless of whether i agree or DISAGREE with their ideological views. They are humans afterall. But again, most importantly they are PAKISTANIS.

and i am optimistic that one day we will do away with this needless policy -- which ironically, was devised during a secular, socialist-leaning civilian government!


it should be remembered though that there are many Ahmedis who have held high positions in Pakistan, who have contributed towards Pakistan and are proud to be Pakistanis.


it should almost certainly be remembered that the bomb blast attacks in the country do not discriminate against their victims. The objective of the terrorists are just to inflict maximum carnage --they dont care who are their victims and in fact this has been demonstrated even during Holy Month of Ramzan when they attacked a Mosque (one presumably filled with mostly Sunni sect Muslims)

 

[Thor]

self delete

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

Minorities should be protected at all cost.it is indeed sad that they are persecuted. Having said that, I dont think that they consider us muslims either.
I still remember one of my best friends statement to me as a favor " ahmadi bann jao, beheshti ho jao gaye". I should ve asked him what would happen if i chose not to become a Ahmadi but I was in no mood for such a discussion at the time!