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Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier-Lemon?

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Titanium

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Govt Tows Admiral Gorshkov - Kommersant Moscow
Russia’s government is raising money to complete the upgrade of Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier that was ordered by India. Industry and Energy Minister Viktor Khristenko has proposed to Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov to cover a portion of costs by another export contract. Simultaneously, India has been notified of the need to reconsider the Admiral Gorshkov contract in view of increasing its value.
Industry and Energy Minister Viktor Khristenko has addressed Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov, seeking his help to sort out the problem of upgrading Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier. The delivery of the vessel has been put off by over three years, while the cost of the ship soared by $380 million “less potential penalty,” Khristenko told Serdyukov via a letter of August 22.

The contract is executed by Sevmash Production Association and it needs the government’s support to fulfill the obligations. The state could back up the enterprise by contracting it to construct two diesel-electric submarines of Project 636 ordered by a foreign client. Then, Sevmash will be able to transfer some funds “to offset money shortage” generated when re-equipping Admiral Gorshkov, Khristenko said. According to the sources, the two submarines mentioned by the minister have been ordered by Venezuela.

India got the hull of Admiral Gorshkov (renamed to Vikramaditya) free of charge in 2004 on condition that the aircraft carrier would be upgraded at Sevmash. The contract budget is roughly $1.5 billion. Of this amount, about $700 million is to be spent for the vessel, while the remainder will go to buy 16 MiG -29KKUBs. Shelving the dates of Admiral Gorshkov’s handover from 2008 to 2011 or 2012 is being currently negotiated.

In Military and Industrial Commission, they say Sevmash has promised to allocate roughly 2 billion rubles ($89 million) from the submarine contract to complete the upgrade of Admiral Gorshkov. But this amount won’t solve the matter. They need up to $1 billion in addition and the talks with India are underway to step up the contract budget.
 
Aircraft Carriers are expensive to bulid, even more expensive to maintain and run. On top of that the Navy needs to assign at least 4 or 5 escort vessels to protect such a valuable asset from submarine and airborne threat.

This is precisely why very few Navies of the world have them. Since India has ambitions to project power far from her shores; she needs Aircraft Carriers. Indians therefore have no option but to put up with the additional cost of Admiral Gorshkov.
 
Indians therefore have no option but to put up with the additional cost of Admiral Gorshkov.

We are talking about $1 Billion more here, for a carrier offered as a free gift.:crazy:

No Doubt about its capability, it will be as much a threat as a carrier supposed to be, but about the economics behind it and the cunningness of the Russians in selling scrap.
 
If the indians back off from the deal this means that russia will induct the carrier with her own forces. If that happens it will seriously effect the IN capabilities to project power sending IN many years back interms of development. Seems like india is quite messed up in the situation either they pay the higher cost for a scrap carrier or get ready to fall back.
 
There is no way to back off, the Mig-29 are paid for and ready, so is for carrier. If it was one off maybe, but it will have cascading effect on all deals.

Read this analysis before perchase by Admiral Nadkarni:
The Indian Navy's white elephant
You have recently completed your bungalow and are on the lookout to hire some people for security. Pandu chowkidar has agreed to do the job along with his friend for about Rs 2,000 a month per person. But your good friend who has a security business steps in. Don't waste your money, he says. I have a surplus of these people. I can give you a couple free. But what about some electronic fencing and surveillance cameras? Before you know it he has sold you equipment worth a couple of lakhs.



India's imminent purchase of the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov comes pretty close to this illogical purchase.

A little background first. The Gorshkov is one of four carriers built by the erstwhile Soviet Union during the Seventies at the height of the Cold War. The first three, the Kiev, the Minsk and the Novorossyisk, saw operational service in the Soviet Navy during the late Seventies and the Eighties.

When the Cold War ended the Russians no longer could sustain a fleet with so many carriers and they were all sold for scrap in the early Nineties.

The Gorshkov, earlier called the Baku, was the last to be completed and did not become operational until 1986. Her operational career was cut short, however, when a devastating fire crippled the ship. Although she was repaired, the Gorshkov never saw operational service thereafter.

In the late Eighties, the Indian Navy began to look for options to replace the ageing Vikrant and Viraat. The original idea was to build one in India. Various actions were taken towards that goal.

Apparently wanting to get into the act, the Russians offered the Gorshkov to the navy in 1994. The purchase had many difficulties. The ship was far bigger that what the navy was looking for. At 45,000 tons and with a deep draught, the ship was not capable of entering Mumbai harbour, which was the logical place for basing it if the navy wanted it primarily as an air defence ship for the Western Fleet.

The navy also did not have adequate facilities to carry out major repairs. But though the price was more than ten times what the navy had paid for the Viraat, it was still worth consideration at Rs 1,000 crore. Many in the navy were for the deal.

But when the navy dilly-dallied, the Russians hit upon a new gambit. We will give you the carrier free, they said. Just take it away and do what you want with it.
Naval eyes lit up at the word 'free'. When the navy and defence ministry were truly and properly hooked, the Russians slowly let in the rider. You will, of course, need to modify and refit the ship for use in India. We will do it for you. It will only take a couple of years and cost you Rs 3,000 crore.
And of course you will require a squadron or two of our latest carrier-based fighter, the MiG 29K. Cost? Another 6,000 crore. Thus the total cost of this rather doubtful acquisition is anywhere between Rs 6,000 crore and Rs 10,000 crore.

In his first term as India's defence minister, George Fernandes promised to bring in greater transparency in India's arms deals. Yet these remain as opaque and unfathomable today as they ever were. No one can make head or tail out of the Gorshkov purchase. Why is a poor nation so intent on seeing through this exorbitant deal? And where is the Indian Navy, with an annual budget of only 3,000 crore, finding the money to pay for all this? Can the job not be done much more cheaply?

Not getting the right answers to these questions, the general belief is that there is something fishy about the whole deal. Recent deals with Russia, including the Rs 6,000 crore Su-30MK deal and Rs 4,500 crore frigate deal, have all been subjects of controversy. None of these deals has been adequately explained by the government.

There is no doubt that the Indian Navy requires a carrier. It needs it to defend its fleet on the high seas against air strikes. Anti-submarine helicopter patrols and strikes against surface targets are added bonuses, not necessities.

Are there reasonable alternatives? Of course there are. The requirements of the navy can be met by a small, 20,000 ton air defence ship. Indeed, the government has placed an order for just such a ship with the Cochin Shipyard. A Spanish yard will build such a ship for about Rs 3,000 crore. The Koreans will build a utility carrier by modifying a merchant ship with a flattop for Rs 500 crore and deliver it in 18 months. Getting the Gorshkov to do the job is like using Schumacher's F1 Ferrari to do your weekly shopping.

The purchase of the Gorshkov at this price will also bring many other headaches to the navy. Apart from the basing and refitting problems, there will be operational problems. No naval chief will ever be willing to risk such a high-value ship in the Arabian Sea in any conflict with Pakistan. Karwar will not be ready for another 10 years and basing the Gorshkov on the east coast will create other difficulties.

In today's charged atmosphere, a conflict can erupt at short notice and be over before the mighty Gorshkov arrives to deliver her punch. The purchase will also require the navy to mortgage its capital expenditure for the next several years. Indeed, it will be a millstone around the necks of the next two chiefs.

Viewed from all sides, if the prime minister inks the Gorshkov deal during his visit to Moscow, it will be the most illogical purchase ever between India and Russia.

With the Indian economy in the doldrums, or at least not as bright as it once was, the last thing we want is a profligate armed force. The Indian Navy cannot expect the nation to give it everything it wants at the cost of the nation's economy. Alternatively, the navy has to live within its budget. Cheaper alternatives to the Gorshkov must be considered.

Traditionally, naval ships have been painted a shade of dark gray. If the Gorshkov is purchased, the Indian Navy might make an exception and paint the ship white. For the aircraft carrier is bound to be the biggest white elephant in the navy's fleet.
 
It shows that India has the money to spare!

Indeed, they have with the way they are going in for big and expensive defence deals!
 
There was no report of Carrier during Antony's visit to Russia. SU-30 deal, T-90, pak-fa all finilased except gorshkov.....
 
There was no report of Carrier during Antony's visit to Russia. SU-30 deal, T-90, pak-fa all finilased except gorshkov.....

what is there to finalize about gorshov? IN would be having it irrespective of the cost & delay. Ofcourse they would try to reduce the delay & cost as much as possible.

If not 2008,they would come in 2010. IN has already committed to it's air arm(Mig-29 & LCA) to ditch the carrier now.
 
Indian defense acquisitions are generally cost overrun. It shows these are not properly worked out. As I remember the deal for aircraft carrier refurbishment was about USD 700 million. Now if they need another USD 1 billion than those people who negotiated the deal and calculated the budget figures were not up to the task. Simple as that. Your project should not be overrun by more than 100% cost estimates and if this happens than you are incompetent. :rofl:
 
It shows that India has the money to spare!

Indeed, they have with the way they are going in for big and expensive defence deals!

Firstly, we dont have money to spare. That $1b can be used in so many other sectors of defense, or even for public services. Even if we had the money to spare the the fact is that we are being taken for a ride. Now tomorrow what if the Russians say they need an additional $500m for the carrier? we'll have to pay coz we dont want the money we paid so far to simply be washed down the drain.

I think its high time we stopped looking at Russia as our main defence supplier. I'm getting tired of their inefficiency, and i'm sure so are the indian high command
 
Indian defense acquisitions are generally cost overrun. It shows these are not properly worked out. As I remember the deal for aircraft carrier refurbishment was about USD 700 million. Now if they need another USD 1 billion than those people who negotiated the deal and calculated the budget figures were not up to the task. Simple as that. Your project should not be overrun by more than 100% cost estimates and if this happens than you are incompetent. :rofl:



Gentleman, cost escalation has nothing to do with incompetenancy of Indian in determining and estimating cost overrun that will going to creep in. It was all because of serious underestimation of cabling required and alleged diversion of resources from Sevmash Shipyard that was meant for Carrier Modernization.
India will pay Russian USD $700 million on the aircraft and additional USD $800 million on the upgrade of Aircraft carrier. Deal singed during NDA regime and total cost of floating airfield with Mig-29K Fighters was $2 Billion. Russian wants India to pay more for getting aircraft carrier.

The delivery stand delay to 2010 unless India coughs more dollars. It has already paid an additional $113 million for Gorshkov

As the value of the dollar has come down heavily in past few months, Moscow now wants renegotiation by virtually doubling the figure on the basis of yearly cost escalation clause.
 
I raised Goreshkav deal to know how much does it cost to build a carrier. According to sources in the Indian defence "Indegenous Defence Carrier" being cuilt in cochin would cost Rs.3000Cr.

Do the Russian pulled out a trick over here in giving "free" gift?, whose refrubish would cost $800Mil x40 =Rs3200 Crore
 
Indegenous Aircraft Carrier(IAC) is only 20K tons, while Gorshy is around 45K tons. You do maths.
 
No dear. it is 24k tons at design and reportedly increased to 37 tons and NEW.

Also carriers cost do not increase propotionally to the wieght. Both IDC and Gorshkov will have almost same defensive systems... which covers most of the cost not the frame. Just go through the first page.
 
No dear. it is 24k tons and NEW.

Also carriers cost do not increase propotionally to the wieght. Both IDC and Gorshkov will have almost same defensive systems... which covers most of the cost not the frame. Just go through the first page.
I do know that the costs donot increase proportionally to the weight. The point is not new or old here, the point is that the IAC will be only in its basic state when its construction is finished.
The Navy will give additional funds to put the necessary electronics, defence suites, networks, etc, etc on the IAC. While Gorshkov will have all these things done in the amount mentioned above, not to reiterate that it will be of almost twice the weight of the IAC.

The Indian Navy classifies the IAC as an Air Defence Ship.
 
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