Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier-Lemon?

[Titanium]

New Delhi, November 6
Days ahead of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s visit to Russia, a top-level Indian Navy delegation is heading for Moscow to discuss the delay and price escalation in the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier deal — perhaps, the most thorny issue between the two countries.
The first official hearing by India on the price escalation is scheduled to take place this week. A detailed financial and technical plan, outlining the specific areas where Russian shipbuilders feel costs need to be increased, will be presented to the Indian side for the first time. Moscow has made it clear that the cost of the warship will need to go up by at least $350 million. However, Indian officials fear that the final escalation may end up being much more. This comes even as questions are being raised on the original decision by the NDA government to procure the warship from Russia in 2004.

But, India cannot back off from the deal considering that payments amounting to over $450 million have already been made for refurbishing the aircraft carrier. The original price quoted for refurbishing the carrier was just under $980 million.

Sources confirmed that the Prime Minister has already been briefed on the issue and the matter is likely to come up for discussions during his Moscow visit starting Sunday.
The matter also came up during Defence Minister A K Antony’s visit to Moscow last month for the India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation (IRIGC). The minister had admitted that there was a delay in the project and an expert group was being constituted to speed up the process.
While the Indian Navy had reconciled itself to the fact that the delivery of the ship would be delayed from the original deadline of August 2008 by a few years, it had been adamant that the original price contract needs to be honoured.

This meeting is the first indication of a softening of stance on the price issue. However, the Indian delegation has not been authorised to negotiate with Russian officials or sign any kind of an agreement. It has just been deputed for the specific purpose of listening to the Russian argument for escalation. The Indian team, including Vice-Admiral B S Randhawa, Vice-Admiral Dilip Deshpande and a Joint Secretary from the Defence Ministry, will leave for Moscow on Wednesday.
IndianExpress.com :: Navy team to discuss Gorshkov price hike with Russia

 

[Titanium]

No word on fate of Admiral gorshkov from the recent Dr.Manmohan visit to Russia?

 

[EagleEyes]

The aircraft carrier with enough modifications and modernization will probably be around $1.5 billion. I think it is still worth it. But Indians didn't expect it for sure.

 

[Titanium]

Let me give a brief background of the carrier:

The vessel’s keel was laid down in 1978 at a shipyard in Ukraine and she was launched with the name Baku in 1982. The commissioning was delayed by serious bugs in the command and control system till 1987. The name Baku, after a city by that name in Azerbaijan, had to be changed as the Soviet Union collapsed and Azerbaijan seceded. A devastating fire in the engine room completely gutted the ship in 1994 and it had to be scrapped in 1996. Russia gifted this wreck to India in 2004.

Imagine a ship gutted in the fire and scrapped in 1996, laying dormat for another 10 years. What do you think it will be not to mention the unfogiving sea vagaries. Admiral gorashkov was nothing more than a rust bucket.

So russian gave the rusting hull as gift and still able to make some $1.5Billion cool doller

Genious na(russia)!....coz you(india) are worh it

 

[ejaz007]

This is the latest on aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov. With 100% cost over run the project is still going to be delayed.

DefenseNews.com - Delivery of Carrier to India Delayed - 11/19/07 12:24

 

[Titanium]

RIA Novosti - Russia - Admiral Gorshkov overhaul slow, could be delayed - contractor

ST. PETERSBURG, November 20 (RIA Novosti) - The overhaul of a Russian-made aircraft carrier sold to India under a 2004 contract could be delayed indefinitely, a source at the Sevmash shipyard said Tuesday.

"It is definitely not going to be 2008 [the deadline stipulated in the contract]," the source said.

The contract to deliver the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier to India, which state-run arms exporter Rosoboronexport signed with the Indian Navy in January 2004, covers the modernization of the ship and equipping it with modern weaponry, including the MiG-29K Fulcrum aircraft and Ka-27 Helix-A and Ka-31 Helix-B anti-submarine helicopters.

The ship is undergoing modernization work at the Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinsk, in northern Russia, but the overhaul has been slow and suffered a number of setbacks, including a lack of financing and poor project management.

"There are many factors [that caused the delay] - the value of the contract is in 2004 dollar prices and the cost estimate was incorrect right from the start," the Sevmash source said. "Experience shows that work on this scale should have been estimated at three times higher."

Besides, the source said, many sub-contactors had failed to supply the necessary parts and equipment on time.

Former director of the Sevmash shipyard, Vladimir Pastukhov, was fired earlier this year over his poor management of the project and some media reports suggested that prosecutors had been investigating a possible fraud case over mismanagement of funds by Sevmash officials.

The $1.5-billion Admiral Gorshkov sale is one of Russia's largest individual military deals with India. The two countries are currently working on military contracts worth $10 billion.

After joining the Indian Navy, the 45,000-ton aircraft carrier will be renamed the INS Vikramaditya and could replace the outdated INS Viraat, a Centaur-class aircraft carrier, which India purchased from Britain in 1986.

India is desperate to receive the carrier as soon as possible because it is building the country's new naval strategy around the Admiral Gorshkov.

 

[su-47]

The russians are proving their inefficiency AGAIN! They never produce or repair anything efficiently unless they also need/use the same product. This is why i think india shouldnt buy anything from Russia unless the russian armed forces are also using it. Best eg would be MiG-35. if we buy it, the Russians wont bother with spares co their AF aint using it. In the end we'll have a fleet of 126 high-tech junk buckets which wont even take off.

 

[amunhotep]

don't blame russia blindly.

do you have any idea about inflation in the commodities market ??

track the LME dude

the price of industrial metals have skyrocketed since the gorshkov deal was signed & unfortunately the russians do not have a hedgefund to cushion them. if the indian govt does not pay for the extra costs incurred by the russians, then i you can't blame the russians for delaying the delivery

 

[ahussains]

Well Well again russians do the trick and trap the indians again as they always do.. in the past 2 times cost is already incressed and again we have the same issue of cost for such a structure which was already 30 years of old (the large hulls have a life of 40 years) and a fire stuck it in early 90's which may reduce its life and the ship is staying in the port for 4 years with out maintanence so if over all restucturing is done complete what is the life of this Carrier .... Experts Commments ??

 

[Titanium]

New Delhi, November 29: A high-level Russian defence team is coming to India soon for talks on the schedule for the delivery aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov in the backdrop of Moscow almost doubling its modernisation cost to three billion dollars.

The cost escalation has shocked India which decided to initiate discussions to resolve the matter, Defence Ministry sources said here on Monday.

The team's visit assumes importance as there was uncertainty over the delivery of the carrier in August 2008 amid indications from Moscow that it could be delayed by four
to five years.

A question mark over the delivery of the carrier came even as Defence Minister A K Antony informed the Lok Sabha on Monday that Moscow had assured that it would stick to September 2008 delivery schedule for the carrier's 18 Mig-29K fighters.

Moscow suddenly decided to jack up the cost of retrofitting of the warship, to double the contracted price to a whopping 2.10 Billion dollars, Defence ministry sources said.

Indian Government was taken aback by the Russian demand as in the orginal contract signed in 2006, the retrofitting cost was fixed and no cost esclation provided for, the sources said.

"India is according the delivery of the warship top most urgency," the sources said . They said the fresh Russian demand would be discussed during the meetings.

The carrier, which has been christened Vikramditya by the Indian Navy, is definetely not going to be delivered by August 2008 as stipulated in the 2004 contract, Russian sources said.

The original 1.5 Billion dollar contract involved radical retrofitting of the Kiev class carrier and arming it with Mig-29 K Fulcrum and Mig-29KUB fighters and KA-27 and Helix KA29 and 31 anti-submarine helicopters.


Udayavani - First look on Karnataka

 

[Titanium]

India, upset over Russia’s unilateral decision to more than double the cost of the refurbishment of aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, will discuss the issue with Moscow this week, defence officials said on Monday.

The Russians have told the Defence Ministry that they were raising the cost by a whopping $1.2 billion to $2.2 billion.

The two sides had agreed in 2004 that the refurbishment would cost $1 billion. India was expecting a hike of $400 mllion. “This is a breach of contract. When it was signed, it was a fixed price contract,” a defence official said on condition of anonymity.

Moscow unilaterally doubles cost of refurbishing Admiral Gorshkov.India has already paid nearly half of the original $1 billion that was agreed upon. “Their (Russia’s) proposal is being studied and we will have to discuss it with the Russians at a higher level all over again,” a senior officer said.

India had sent a defence procurement team to Russia to discuss the increase in cost after Defence Minister A.K. Antony visited Moscow last month.

The Russians had then said that the cost would have to be hiked for the deal to proceed. A team of Russian officials is expected to visit India this week. The programme is already behind schedule. The carrier was to be delivered to India in August 2008 under the original contract. It is now expected to arrive only in 2010.

 

[Titanium]

Navy chief: Russia has to honour Gorshkov deal -India-The Times of India

But with Russia now demanding a staggering $1.2 billion more to refurbish Admiral Gorshkov, apart from pushing back its delivery date to 2012-2013, coupled with delays in other projects, is the Navy not fretting about its plans going haywire?

Yes, there is some worry. But there is also hope that problems with Russia will be sorted out soon. The 44,570-tonne Gorshkov, rechristened INS Vikramaditya, was initially supposed to join Indian Navy by August 2008 as per the $1.5-billion package deal signed in January 2004.

The deal includes 16 MiG-29K 'Fulcrum' supersonic fighters and a mix of Ka-31 and Ka-28 helicopters to operate from the carrier. India has already paid around $460 million of the $974 million earmarked for Gorshkov's refit.

"It's a fixed price contract arising out of an inter-governmental agreement. It's an obligation of the Russian government to provide us with the warship, with the characteristics laid down in the contract," said Admiral Mehta.

"They now tell us they have come across some unforeseen requirements in the modernisation work on the carrier...discussions are being held to arrive at some conclusion soon," he added. What he left unsaid was that while India would be ready to pay another $500 million or so extra, an amount like $1.2 billion will make the project simply unsustainable

 

[Titanium]

Understanding the Gorshkov dilemma
by Premvir Das

IN recent months, the media has been flooded with reports that the Russian aircraft carrier, Admiral Gorshkov, contracted for repairs at a price of some $ 750 million for delivery in end 2008, is not only running behind time but is also beset by huge cost overruns. If these reports are to be believed, and there appears to be some truth in them, the Russians want another $ 1000 million to complete the work with a possible completion date of 2010, possibly later. The stated reason for this massive escalation is underestimation of the initial repair package by the Russian yard responsible for undertaking the work.

Before India and Russia signed the contract, the ship had been lying unserviceable for many years. When this happens, the steel of the hull corrodes quickly; Gorshkov must be having over 25,000 tons of steel plate needing substantive replacement and extra work, identified by detailed surveys will, almost always, become necessary. Most of the electrical and electronic equipment has to be changed. At least, auxiliary if not main propulsion machinery will need replacement.

Above all, cabling in the big ship, running into several hundred kilometers, would need large scale renewal. Since the ship has also to be configured for a ski-jump, additional deck modifications are involved. So, the work is very major and in a ship of 42,000 ton displacement, as complex as an aircraft carrier, the possibility of underassessment and consequent overruns is high.

One could argue that the Russians are not novices at this business; they are, after all, the ones who built the ship. This is only partly true; building a ship from scratch is infinitely easier that refitting it comprehensively. Our own experience of doing such work in ships much smaller bears this out. There have been significant time and cost overruns and some projects had actually to be abandoned half way through.

So, there is need to view the issue pragmatically. For us, to have assumed that Gorshkov, or Vikramaditya, as the vessel is to be called once it begins to fly the Indian flag, would come at the time and cost originally agreed, was at one end somewhat optimistic and at the other, quite naïve.

Let us look at some facts. The Brahmaputra class frigates built at Garden Reach Shipyard in Kolkatta were behind schedule by seven to eight years; so was the oiler Aditya built in the same yard. If we think that a Kolkatta shipyard is not a model of efficiency or productivity, look at the case of the ships on order at Mazagon Docks in Mumbai.

The frigates ordered in 1997 and three others, ordered later, are nowhere on the horizon, this when the yard should be able to turn out such vessels in five years. In every case there have been cost overruns. Those built in Kolkatta cost four times the price originally estimated. This is not because people charged with the task were or are incompetent; construction of warships is not like building merchant vessels where technology is very much simpler and construction straightforward. Estimating costs of warships is not easy and is subject to several imponderables.

This is not to suggest that what is happening with Gorshkov should not be viewed seriously. In the first place, we must ask the Indian team attached to the Russian shipyard to oversee the work, what the details of the extra work are, whether it is justified and, if so, why was continuous feed back not available with Naval Headquarters much earlier, assuming that it was not. Prima facie, it would appear that there has been some weakness.

In regard to the work now being projected, the aim should be to identify what is necessary to ensure that the ship functions reliably for the next two decades, at the very least. Cabling and auxiliary machinery are key as they form the weakest links in the chain. The two aspects, time and cost overruns should be looked at separately. As far as the first is concerned, mutually agreed revised work packages must be worked out and time frame of that work established.

Price escalation falls under a different category. The Russia methods of cost estimation, much like in the erstwhile USSR, are ad hoc and leave much scope for hard negotiations. It should be possible for a well prepared team to trim the projected figure of $ 1000 million odd very substantially.

The India-Russia linkage for military hardware has survived four decades of tension and stressful situations like this have been faced many times. Through the 1990s, supply of spares and materiel had completely dried up leaving our Armed Forces gasping. Even otherwise and at different times, in fact even today, logistics support has never been the strong point in this relationship.

But that country gave us contemporary and quite modern ships, submarines, aircraft, armoured vehicles, missile systems and guns when no other country would and on very favourable terms. A nuclear submarine could not have been leased from anywhere else, even today, but we got one, the Chakra two decades ago and a much larger and more versatile Akula boat is not far away.

Our submarines, acquired from that country, are the only ones in these waters which can launch missiles of 300 kilometer range from under the water. The Brahmos cruise missile, already operationalized in our ships, is another example of this cooperation. More modern military hardware is on order and other high technology futuristic projects on the anvil. So, the relationship is not just about the aircraft carrier; it has a very much larger dimension and there is need to place this subset within the larger canvas.

Finally, any bilateral military relationship must, always, be viewed in the context of the overall strategic relationship between the two countries. Russia, despite its weakened position, is still a major international player, even more so in Asia. Along with China and Japan, it is key to the Asian power equations in which India is seeking a rightful place. There are no major divergences in interests between the two countries; indeed, in most areas these are in synergy.

Strong strategic interfaces with Russia enhance our flexibilities in interacting with other major players. Our own position is also much stronger than what it was two decades ago. So, in the ensuing negotiations we must be forceful but positive, recognizing the pivotal role that the ship will play in our quest for maritime power. Quid pro quos are an essential ingredient of bilateral relations. If we look at the Gorshkov through this ultimate prism, we will know where to go.

The writer is a former Commander-in-Chief of the Eastern Naval Command and Director General Defence Planning Staff

 

[ejaz007]

Russia Should Honor Carrier Refit Contract: Indian Navy Chief By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI
The strain in Indo-Russian defense ties is showing, and the delay in Russia’s delivery of the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov could make India “ponder where our defense relations are going” with Moscow, the Indian Navy chief, Adm. Sureesh Mehta, said Dec. 3 during an annual Navy Day news conference here.
In a standoff that began early this year, Moscow is demanding price escalations on several deals with India, some still under negotiation and some agreed upon years ago.
Russia had sought a $650 million increase for the refit of the Admiral Gorshkov, a retired Russian Navy carrier, Indian Defence Ministry sources said.
“We have paid more than $400 million for the carrier and we own it now,” Mehta said. “The government should not get into price renegotiations. We expect that the fixed-price contract [under which the deal was negotiated] should be honored by the Russian government.”
Though Moscow gave the ship to India free of charge, the refit of the carrier is being done in Russia. India also contracted under the 2004 deal to buy from Russia a number of MiG-29K fighter aircraft, valued at $640 million, for the carrier.
The issue was discussed during Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s visit to Moscow last week.
The price escalation standoff remains unresolved.
DefenseNews.com - Russia Should Honor Carrier Refit Contract: Indian Navy Chief - 12/03/07 14:24

 

[Titanium]

It is getting more comedy of errors now....

The absence of any blueprints for INS Vikramaditya (formerly Admiral Gorshkov), the 44,750-tonne Kiev-class aircraft carrier, is the principal reason for the delay in retrofitting the vessel for the Indian Navy (IN).

IN officers associated with Vikramaditya's refit at the Sevmashpredpriyatiye shipyard in northern Russia told IANS that the carrier's drawings had not been passed on to Russia by the Nikolayev South (Shipyard No 444) in Ukraine where it was built after the disintegration of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s.

'This led to a gross miscalculation by Russian engineers about the extent of cabling required for the carrier and the cost for it to remain operational for at least 25 years in keeping with our requirements,' a three-star IN officer said, declining to be identified.

Attempts, he added, were presently afoot by the Russian naval design bureau in St. Petersburg to re-create the carriers' drawings by working backwards but that would take 'ages'.

IN officers said without blueprints and necessary technical drawings, Russian engineers had originally estimated that the carrier would require 700 km of cabling. Once work began, this was revised to 2,400 km.

Well good luck and add another 4 years and another Billion$$$