about Muslim Brahmins of Pakistan and Kashmir

[DESERT FIGHTER]

brahmins ruled all over Asia from Afghanistan to the ASEAN countries like Thailand, Combodia, Vietnam and Indonesia. Angkor vat was built by Brahmin Kings for example. so i am not surprised that his Family have martial roots. my own family have held jagirs in KAthiyawad Gujarat for 900 years.

can you tell me whats his surname ?

His roll call or ID doesn't state any

yeah we dont have any Awans or Arians in India, not even in Punjab. maybe one of this community is made of Migrants from Afghanistan or MENA(Middle East and North Africa).[/QUOTE]

brahmins ruled all over Asia from Afghanistan to the ASEAN countries like Thailand, Combodia, Vietnam and Indonesia. Angkor vat was built by Brahmin Kings for example. so i am not surprised that his Family have martial roots. my own family have held jagirs in KAthiyawad Gujarat for 900 years.

can you tell me whats his surname ?



yeah we dont have any Awans or Arians in India, not even in Punjab. maybe one of this community is made of Migrants from Afghanistan or MENA(Middle East and North Africa).


majority of rajputs of Gujarat are infect Sindhis.

Jadejas are Junejas (muslim rajputs still uses junejas here), Chudasamas are samma rajputs, Jethwas and other major Rajput tribes are infect Sindhis who migrated to Western Gujarat. and rajputs are 20% of West Gujarat population.

in Sindh, there are only "Junejos"
Not Jadeja.

Sindh also has both Muslim and Hindu Solankis.

Samma and Soomro both are mostly Muslim .. and these Muslim Rajputs ruled Sindh.

 

[Nexus]

Bin Qasim didn't abolish 'hindu caste system' in Sindh given that during his time the majority of Sindh was made up of Buddhists who didn't have a varna system.

lol.

Buddhism is most castist Religion in the world.

why ?

1) buddha always said that all non Brahmin and Kshatriya people are 2nd clas people

2) all buddhas will born in either Brahmin or kshatriya family. next buddha will born in Brahmin family as original Buddha was born in Kshatriya family.

3) buddha claimed that while non B/K people can reach nirvana they will always be inferior to Brahmin and Kshatriya poeple in the World.

I'm also Baloch, and had always though that Sindhi Baluch are the reminents of Baluch dynasties, like the Sadozais,Khakwanis etc and other Pashtuns of Waseeb,southern Panjab)...


Bheels etc live in thar,border areas so they probably are rajhisthani).

we have many Muslim Baloch in Junagah and Champaner region. generally they have heavy West Asian influence and light eyes.

Jhooth ki bhi hadd hoti hai. See whats mentioned about Bin Qasim s administration in Sindh. He protected Brahminism by allocating 3% of state revenues to them. So your claim about Bin Qasim abolished caste is as good as rubbish.

Administration by Muhammad bin Qasim[edit]
After the conquest, Muhammad bin Qasim's task was to set up an administrative structure for a stable Muslim state that incorporated a newly conquered alien land, inhabited by non-Muslims.[15] He adopted a conciliatory policy, asking for acceptance of Muslim rule by the natives in return for non-interference in their religious practice,[15] so long as the natives paid their taxes and tribute.[4] In return, the state provided protection to non-Muslim from any foreign attacks and enemies. He established Islamic Sharia law over the people of the region; however, Hindus were allowed to rule their villages and settle their disputes according to their own laws,[4] and traditional hierarchical institutions, including the Village Headmen (Rais) and Chieftains (dihqans) were maintained.[15] A Muslim officer called an amil was stationed with a troop of cavalry to manage each town on a hereditary basis [15]

Everywhere taxes (mal) and tribute (kharaj) were settled and hostages taken — occasionally this also meant the custodians of temples.[10] Non-Muslim natives were excused from military service and from payment of the religiously mandated tax system levied upon Muslims called Zakat,[15] the tax system levied upon them instead was the jizya - a progressive tax, being heavier on the upper classes and light for the poor.[15] In addition, three percent of government revenue was allocated to the Brahmins.[4]

dont waste your time o these fools, Hindu brahmin getting more respect from real muslim is real reason that causes heart burn in these folks.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

lol.

Buddhism is most castist Religion in the world.

why ?

1) buddha always said that all non Brahmin and Kshatriya people are 2nd clas people

2) all buddhas will born in either Brahmin or kshatriya family. next buddha will born in Brahmin family as original Buddha was born in Kshatriya family.

3) buddha claimed that while non B/K people can reach nirvana they will always be inferior to Brahmin and Kshatriya poeple in the World.



we have many Muslim Baloch in Junagah and Champaner region. generally they have heavy West Asian influence and light eyes.



dont waste your time o these fools, Hindu brahmin getting more respect from real muslim is real reason that causes heart burn in these folks.

Baloch ruled states in north India.

Others were part of Pashtun and Mughal empires as military officers as administrators.

 

[Nexus]

His roll call or ID doesn't state any

yeah we dont have any Awans or Arians in India, not even in Punjab. maybe one of this community is made of Migrants from Afghanistan or MENA(Middle East and North Africa).

in Sindh, there are only "Junejos"
Not Jadeja.

Sindh also has both Muslim and Hindu Solankis.

Samma and Soomro both are mostly Muslim .. and these Muslim Rajputs ruled Sindh.[/QUOTE]

that unfortunate.

Jadejas are junejas who changed their clan name from Juneja to Jadeja after migrating to Western Gujarat. infact whole north Kathiywad and Kutchh is their terf, nobody have power to dethrone these Rajputs.

solankis,zalas, Katis and Vaghelas are Native Gujarati Rajputs who are racially Indo(Aryan)-Scythians.

Oh but we were saved.



Lol. False flagger.



Nope. Contrary to the popular belief in India, we don't hate Hindus, we hate the occupation of our land.




He's not. He's not even a Pakistani, trust me.



Yeah, heard of that. My Paskhtoon friend didn't believe me when I told him.



Janab apko nahi pata, in sub ke pass family trees hain. Pakistan mein Arabia se ziyada arabi hain.



Lol true. My maternal side's surname is actually "Kasher" but are now known as Butts.

of course you dont hate us, as you know deep down that your own ancestors are the one who Created Hinduism

same for Muslim Rajputs.

My great-grandfather, Pandit Mansanath, converted to Islam after studying the religion under a local Muslim scholar in Srinagar. In those times Muslim scholars and teachers were given the title of a 'Sheikh' and thus it became a very respected title within the Muslim community. So when my great-grandfather converted he changed his surname from Pandit to 'Sheikh'. This practice became the practice for many converts, so much so that there came a time when the surname 'Sheikh' signified that you were a convert (as alluded to by @-blitzkrieg-). This is the reason why this particular surname is found across pretty much all the ethnicities of the region and has no ethnic or tribal significance, as compared to most surnames in the region.

hmm... can you tell me why sheikh is adopted by Brahmins while majority of kshatraiyas and Rajputs kept their original surnames ?

1) We converted because our ancestors thought Islam to be the true path.

2) We are not seen as Muslim Pundits or converts at all. We have taken new identities void of religious connotations, e.g. I am a Kashmiri and that is all I am known by if at all. I identify as a Pakistani with Kashmiri ethnicity, period.

3) I haven't met a Muslim with 'Pundit' as their surname. As mentioned before, we changed our surnames. We are however seen as any other Muslim, at most we are distinguished by our ethnicity, e.g. Kashmiri.

Kashmiri is not an ethinicity, Kashmiri, Punjabi, Rajasthani, Gujarati, Hindi are just languages not Ethinicies. (upper caste people of north Indians states only)

kashmiri was Ethnicity maybe 1000 years ago, not today as majority of Kashmmiri have little to no Dardic Blood.

4) We used to try to marry within other Kashmiris but it wasn't a strict rule at all, it was instead just a preference due to cultural reasons. Over the years this preference has become even less important. For example, one of my uncles married a non-Kashmiri. I come from a strict Kashmiri lineage but have married a Rajput. No one really cares enough for it to have any effect. Our biradaris were strictly based on ethnicity and weren't strict biradaris at all. Kashmiris are known to be more open minded to assimilation and integration, at least on this side of the border. Within the Kashmiri biradari there is no distinction between former Brahmin Kashmiris and former non-Brahmin Kashmiris.

brahmin and Rajput generally intermarry in India as well, altho in very very limited numbers.

5) We mostly see our heritage through our ethnic ancestry without any religious colours to it. The modern Pakistani though is increasingly more interested and accepting of his/her pre-Islam heritage.

what past ? mostly IVC ?

[qoute]6) Like I mentioned before, no one really cares for our Brahmin past, not even us. And I am an example of a Muslim from Brahmin ancestry who married into Rajputs. My maternal side (also formerly Kashmiri Brahmins) is heavily married into Balochs and Pashtuns. Most of them moved to Quetta after moving from Kashmir.[/quote]

Good for you.

Baloch ruled states in north India.

Others were part of Pashtun and Mughal empires as military officers as administrators.

most likely. i guess majority of Baloch here are descenders of soldiers and Administrators

 

[hydrabadi_arab]

We created Eastern civilization boy, even whites wanted to be like us. (Boston brahmins)

Despite being muslim for 100s of years, real muslims respect us more than they respect you. This is the status of Brahmins.

And we are brahmins, emphomee of Pride and Honor. don't worry about our women they are more proud than us.

What civilisation? Before Hazrat Bin Qasim there was no sign of civilisation in India. If oppressing dalits is called civilisation then you got full marks.

Muslims respects brahmin more then decedents of arabs in subcontinent? Is this why brahmin converts hide behind arabic title of sheikh? People respect you if you are proud of your roots, brahmin converts clearly were not.

 

[Nexus]

.

Muslims respects brahmin more then decedents of arabs in subcontinent? Is this why brahmin converts hide behind arabic title of sheikh? People respect you if you are proud of your roots, brahmin converts clearly were not.

tell that to @Zibago and @krash

 

[Pakistani E]

Are u a brahmin muslim as well ? With Awans name ?

Maternally, yes. I am an Awan from my father's side and a Kashmiri Butt from my mother's side. Their roots are in Kashmir Valley.

Muslims respects brahmin more then decedents of arabs in subcontinent? Is this why brahmin converts hide behind arabic title of sheikh? People respect you if you are proud of your roots, brahmin converts clearly were not.

You know nothing about Kashmiri Pandits who converted to Islam. They are one of the few ethnic groups in the subcontinent who still retained their ethnic surnames and origins after conversion.

 

[countryman]

(If your answer is specifically about Kashmir please skip reading; these are the answers from someone whose ancestors were Hindus centuries ago, from Rajput family tree, migrants from Jalendhar and Ludhiana)
1) why these brahmins converts to Islam ? And when ?
Because, I think it was right thing they did. I'm personally grateful to my ancestors who chose Islam over what they believed before and we got Islam as an inherited treasure; I can understand conversion part is most difficult. People in this region started converting to Islam centuries ago and are still converting. Though the all Muslims are converts, though, the conversion in this region started little later, you know the rest of history.

2) how Muslims view these converted brahmins? Do they get respect in Pakistani or Kashmiri society?
Brahmin is term of Hindu culture and Hinduism, I think people don't carry it along with themselves nor they feel any pride in it anymore because Islam teaches the equality not racism. If someone thinks he/she is better than other based on his ancestry or cast then he/she is not completely following Islam on this aspect.

3) how muslims view these muslims who have "pundit" surname specifically?
It would be same like "Hassan Abdullah" being a Hindu, because the will cause some confusion due to context. However, think it doesn't matter once the confusion is gone.

4) do they intermarry with other muslims ? Do they have their own biradaris?
After all we have some inherited values from hindu culture, talking about Rajputs, people usually don't marry an outsider, however this trend is changing greatly and cast system have diminished greatly in urban areas. Regarding new converts: It is difficult for them sometimes, for example, when my maternal grand parents arrived at Pakistan they met some young Hindu convert here in Pakistan. my grandparents land were allocated land exactly beside his land. At the time of partition, his parents left for India - he was Khatri by cast but he hid himself because he accepted Islam sometimes before, he was young though about 23 by age, unmarried. He was greatly appreciated by people here. He was married in our family; however, some racist element are in every community, especially among the migrants and converts in rural areas sometimes have hard time intermingling with new society in rural areas.

5) how Muslims brahmins view their heritage? And sanskrit.
Like I answered before, this is no longer important and something worth feeling pride.

6) how Pashtuns,Baloch view these brahmins? And Rajputs?
Nothing special; unless you're talking about some super racist. Just think of it as random to be someone from particular clan, however, these things are usually asked in rural areas only when marrying outside your existing family circle and nothing else.

 

[hydrabadi_arab]

I know about him, truely, we brahmins are special breed.

even muslim brahmins today are ruling pakistan !

In Pakistan anyone can become PM. But if tomorrow Nawaz said he was brahmin and asked for votes then not even dogs will go near him. Hindu varna caste system was abolished by Bin Qasim.

Nawaz was illegal son of Zia. His father was lohar and Zardari used to make fun of his family profession.

Shows in Pakistan even low castes like lohars can become PM.

 

[xairhossi]

lol.

Buddhism is most castist Religion in the world.

why ?

1) buddha always said that all non Brahmin and Kshatriya people are 2nd clas people

2) all buddhas will born in either Brahmin or kshatriya family. next buddha will born in Brahmin family as original Buddha was born in Kshatriya family.

3) buddha claimed that while non B/K people can reach nirvana they will always be inferior to Brahmin and Kshatriya poeple in the World.

Buddhism as a religion still didnt have varna, which is why it spread to places like Afghanistan, China, Far East and Central Asia while Hinduism cant function without varna and proper Hinduism is only found in the Hindi belt.

 

[Mian Babban]

i
6) how Pashtuns,Baloch view these brahmins? And Rajputs?

We dont have muslim brahmins in north india beside kashmir and Pakistani punjab so I posted this in Pakistani history section.

@Mian Babban and @DESERT FIGHTER being a pashtun and Baloch your answers are much needed and highly valuable/ credible for us.

@waz keep this thread clean please.

We (Pashtuns) just view them as Kashmiris. Our folk in general are not familiar with castes and baradries of Kashmir. There are guys from Azad Kashmir running bakeries in our areas but no one asks them about their castes. The categorization in our society is simple, Pashtun and non-Pashtun.

 

[hydrabadi_arab]

Kashmiri is not an ethinicity, Kashmiri, Punjabi, Rajasthani, Gujarati, Hindi are just languages not Ethinicies. (upper caste people of north Indians states only)

allah forgive this brahmin and show him the light.

 

[krash]

of course you dont hate us, as you know deep down that your own ancestors are the one who Created Hinduism

same for Muslim Rajputs.

Lol, as true as that may be, it's not the actually reason for not hating Hindus.

hmm... can you tell me why sheikh is adopted by Brahmins while majority of kshatraiyas and Rajputs kept their original surnames ?

Two reasons in my opinion. 1) 'Pandit' had obvious Hindu religious connotations, which for obvious reasons the new Muslims would not want to keep. 'Sheikh' on the other hand, not only signified their new beliefs but also gave them a surname devoid of any tribal/ethnic links. 2) The Brahmins of the time, being used an 'above par' surname wanted something to match. 'Sheikh' suited perfectly since the title held tremendous respect in the Muslim circles. Later on, it was just because it was the tradition.

Kashmiri is not an ethinicity, Kashmiri, Punjabi, Rajasthani, Gujarati, Hindi are just languages not Ethinicies. (upper caste people of north Indians states only)

Not true. However, if you must, take it as a geographical grouping then.

kashmiri was Ethnicity maybe 1000 years ago, not today as majority of Kashmmiri have little to no Dardic Blood.

Again not true, as witnessed in the genetic studies done on the people. Besides, Dardic itself is an extremely vague and loose grouping.

brahmin and Rajput generally intermarry in India as well, altho in very very limited numbers.

We marry everyone and everyone is happy enough to marry us.

what past ? mostly IVC ?

Post as well.

Good for you.

Indeed.

tell that to @Zibago and @krash

Don't have the energy to respond to nonsensical statements.

 

[Fledgingwings]

The Caste system in hinduism in it self can also be a reason for a person to convert into islam because Islam offers equality to all people and does not allows any division on the basis of castes among the society.

 

[Zibago]

We marry everyone and everyone is happy enough to marry us.

Ah so there is hope