about Muslim Brahmins of Pakistan and Kashmir

[xairhossi]

Sounds like Bullshyt!
Makes no sense, when you Panjabis take pride in surnames like...,Chatha,Cheema etc and claim you

There are no Chattha or Cheema Hindus though. They are either Sikhs or Muslims.

 

[Burhan Wani]

"[Serious]"

I saw this image on reddit few hours ago and do it have sparked number of questions in my mind.

These results the people Indian army have killed in Kashmir. And i hve noticed that majority of them are actually Kashmiri Pundits who converted to Islam.

1) why these brahmins converts to Islam ? And when ?

2) how Muslims view these converted brahmins? Do they get respect in Pakistani or Kashmiri society?

3) how muslims view these muslims who have "pundit" surname specifically?

4) do they intermarry with other muslims ? Do they have their own biradaris?

5) how Muslims brahmins view their heritage? And sanskrit.

6) how Pashtuns,Baloch view these brahmins? And Rajputs?

We dont have muslim brahmins in north india beside kashmir and Pakistani punjab so I posted this in Pakistani history section.

@Mian Babban and @DESERT FIGHTER being a pashtun and Baloch your answers are much needed and highly valuable/ credible for us.

@waz keep this thread clean please.

By the grace of Almighty number 8 and 10 are still alive Alhamdolillah and fighting against aggressors.

 

[xairhossi]

where are Pakistani muslim brahmins lol? If they exist then believe me they are happy at the fact that they will enter jannat and not hell.
If true then they are good at hiding their identity,.

The PM of Pakistan is a Kashmiri Butt...

 

[Nexus]

There are no Chattha or Cheema Hindus though. They are either Sikhs or Muslims.

We have cheema hindus. Cheemaji is widely used nick name here.

 

[xairhossi]

Interesting thing to note is that in most Hindu texts like the Mahabharata, Punjab (called Aratta-Vahika) is described as a mlechha/foreigner like land which is outside the boundaries of 'Brahmavarta' (whose western boundary was at Kurukshetra, Haryana) and where varna and dharma is not practiced and Brahmins are advised not to go. Before entering this region, Brahmins performed purification rites.

"Where forests of Pilus stand, and those five rivers flow, viz., the Satadru, the Vipasa, the Iravati, the Candrabhaga, and the Vitasa and which have the Sindhu for their sixth, there in those regions removed from the Himavat, are the countries called by the name of the Arattas. Those regions are without virtue and religion. No one should go thither. (VIII.30.36)"

Kashmir too would be considered the same and outside the boundary of Brahmavarta which could explain why Kashmiri Brahmins were more liberal and willing to convert to Islam.

This is also the reason why Punjabis voted for the Muslim League and Pakistan in 1947 (jk )

We have cheema hindus. Cheemaji is widely used nick name here.

in Haryana?

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Bin Qasim didn't abolish 'hindu caste system' in Sindh given that during his time the majority of Sindh was made up of Buddhists who didn't have a varna system.

Sindh is diverse AF.

I've met 3rd gen Baluch (my new driver is a Magsi, whose grandfather migrated from jhal Magsi).

Another guy I met is a Sindhi of Pashtun origin.

Than there are Sindhi Baluch like Talpurs,Jatois etc.

Sindhi Rajputs Soomro,Samma (whose dynasties ruled the Sindh state).

Than other tribes like Kalhoros etc.
Memons (sindhis & Gujrati , from Kutch).


Syeds (descendents of Pirs, who are respected madly, even if they are azzholez,exploiting poor).

The Hindus of Sindh (Umer/Amar Kots rulers were Hindu Rajputs, Late Former Minister Rana Chander Singh) are also divided .. Rajputs,Traders and the Dalit Bheels who again are exploited by land owners and high castes).


P.S; Mithi is a Hindu majority city of Pakistan... I believe like 70+% people are Hindu).

 

[xairhossi]

Sindh is diverse AF.

I've met 3rd gen Baluch (my new driver is a Magsi, whose grandfather migrated from jhal Magsi).

Another guy I met is a Sindhi of Pashtun origin.

Than there are Sindhi Baluch like Talpurs,Jatois etc.

Sindhi Rajputs Soomro,Samma (whose dynasties ruled the Sindh state).

Than other tribes like Kalhoros etc.

Syeds (descendents of Pirs, who are respected madly, even if they are azzholez,exploiting poor).

The Hindus of Sindh are also divided .. Rajputs,Traders and the Dalit Bheels who again are exploited by land owners and high castes).

Bhils of Sindh are Marwari as they speak Rajasthani dialect rather than Sindhi.

40% of Sindhis are Baloch tribes and the rest are Sammat or native Sindhis.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Bhils of Sindh are Marwari as they speak Rajasthani dialect rather than Sindhi.

40% of Sindhis are Baloch tribes and the rest are Sammat or native Sindhis.

I'm also Baloch, and had always though that Sindhi Baluch are the reminents of Baluch dynasties, like the Sadozais,Khakwanis etc and other Pashtuns of Waseeb,southern Panjab)...


Bheels etc live in thar,border areas so they probably are rajhisthani).

 

[xairhossi]

I'm also Baloch, and had always though that Sindhi Baluch are the reminents of Baluch dynasties, like the Sadozais,Khakwanis etc and other Pashtuns of Waseeb,southern Panjab)...

Baloch tribes would have migrated to Sindh at different times, many might have been living there since ancient times. Talpurs are a branch of the Leghari Baloch of South Punjab. In that region ethnic identity is very complex. Brahuis and Balochs are almost interchangeable in Balochistan, with the Kalat state being ruled by Brahuis. After Kalhoro-Kalat wars, the Talpurs came to Sindh. Tribes like Jatoi or Chandio might be old Sindhis as well (Chandio sounds very much like a Sindhi name, its Chandiyah in South Punjab).

 

[Burhan Wani]

I'm also Baloch, and had always though that Sindhi Baluch are the reminents of Baluch dynasties, like the Sadozais,Khakwanis etc and other Pashtuns of Waseeb,southern Panjab)...


Bheels etc live in thar,border areas so they probably are rajhisthani).

I am Sadozai (Sudhan) from Poonch Azad Kashmir .

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Baloch tribes would have migrated to Sindh at different times, many might have been living there since ancient times. Talpurs are a branch of the Leghari Baloch of South Punjab. In that region ethnic identity is very complex. Brahuis and Balochs are almost interchangeable in Balochistan, with the Kalat state being ruled by Brahuis. After Kalhoro-Kalat wars, the Talpurs came to Sindh. Tribes like Jatoi or Chandio might be old Sindhis as well (Chandio sounds very much like a Sindhi name, its Chandiyah in South Punjab).

What about Joiya Rajputs of southern Panjab ?

One of my best buddies is from the Joiya family of Kehror Paka... Seriki speaking Rajput?

Before meeting him , I never knew there were Seriki speaking Rajputs ... although according to him, they are natives .. but I doubt they are also settlers ?

 

[xairhossi]

What about Joiya Rajputs of southern Panjab ?

One of my best buddies is from the Joiya family of Kehror Paka... Seriki speaking Rajput?

Before meeting him , I never knew there were Seriki speaking Rajputs ... although according to him, they are natives .. but I doubt they are also settlers ?

In Pakpattan district where most of them are, they are Jatts. It's confusing for many of these Bar tribes, as some of them are called Jatts others Rajputs. Now many of them only identify with their clan e.g Kharrals of Pakpattan/Sahiwal only identify
as Kharral and not Jat or Rajput.
Interesting thing about these Bar tribes is that they were nomadic or pastoral until the 19th century when most of the forested regions of the Bar were cleared by the British.
I think they are the original Sindhi Jats as described in the Chachnama as the population of Sindh was described as mostly made up of Buddhist Jatts or Meds who were nomadic/pastoral. Their clans are usually only Muslim exclusive as well (like Sial, Wattoo, Dogar etc.)

 

[hydrabadi_arab]

Sad. Too bad we were not able to save them in past.

Stupid hindu still think they needed saving. There are 3 million hindus in Pakistan. As far as I know after Hazrat Bin Qasim, Pakistan region was always ruled by muslims and with muslim majority. Despite that even today there are millions of hindus in Pakistan who didn't need any saving. Even when Pakistan was made in the name of Islam. Not to forget all those hindus who left Pakistan for India in 47.

Which put your stupid propaganda of forcing anyone to rest. If muslims wanted they could have exterminated hindus in muslim majority areas long time ago.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

In Pakpattan district where most of them are, they are Jatts. It's confusing for many of these Bar tribes, as some of them are called Jatts others Rajputs. Now many of them only identify with their clan e.g Kharrals of Pakpattan/Sahiwal only identify
as Kharral and not Jat or Rajput.
Interesting thing about these Bar tribes is that they were nomadic or pastoral until the 19th century when most of the forested regions of the Bar were cleared by the British.
I think they are the original Sindhi Jats as described in the Chachnama as the population of Sindh was described as mostly made up of Buddhist Jatts or Meds who were nomadic/pastoral. Their clans are usually only Muslim exclusive as well (like Sial, Wattoo, Dogar etc.)

Once I was travelling by motorway to gujranwala from Lahore.
Gave lift to a motorway police inspector ... during our chitchat.. he revealed that he was from Pindi bhattian and a Kharral...
Asked him the same question.. he replied that they are Rajputs but many others call themselves Jatts.. probably because they have been marrying among Jatts and living with them since ages.

Coming back to the Kharrals , of Kamalia, the area of the famous Ahmed Khan Kharral ... well they are proud of being Rajputs rather than Jatts etc...

Id personally think that there are several sub clans that either have same names to other clans ... or have some have intermingles with other groups..

For example the Khokars.

Half of them claim to be Rajputs, others claim to be Jatts and than some claim to be a seperate tribe..

Now the friend I'm talking about is from a well off political,(large) landowning family... PML Q... so I doubt that they just migrated to the region,claimed to be Rajputs and adopted Seriki.

 

[xairhossi]

Once I was travelling by motorway to gujranwala from Lahore.
Gave lift to a motorway police inspector ... during our chitchat.. he revealed that he was from Pindi bhattian and a Kharral...
Asked him the same question.. he replied that they are Rajputs but many others call themselves Jatts.. probably because they have been marrying among Jatts and living with them since ages.

Coming back to the Kharrals , of Kamalia, the area of the famous Ahmed Khan Kharral ... well they are proud of being Rajputs rather than Jatts etc...

Id personally think that there are several sub clans that either have same names to other clans ... or have some have intermingles with other groups..

For example the Khokars.

Half of them claim to be Rajputs, others claim to be Jatts and than some claim to be a seperate tribe..

Now the friend I'm talking about is from a well off political,(large) landowning family... PML Q... so I doubt that they just migrated to the region,claimed to be Rajputs and adopted Seriki.

Rai Ahmed Khan Kharral was from Jhamra (district Lyallpur/Faisalabad) not Kamalia.
The British account of the 1857 rebellion describes them as thus
"“In the district around are numerous Mohammedan tribes of Jut origin, at present degenerated into cattlefeeders and cattle-stealers, who nevertheless retained somewhat of their ancestral love of war and plunder; hundreds and thousands oh whom wanted only the opportunity and encouragement to spring up armed—for though nominally disarmed, what Punjabee does not know where to lay hands on his weapon in time of need?---and at the first sound of the war—cry, “Deen! Deen! (religion), in Moslem fanaticism, they would have made Mooltan their rallying-point.”
http://pu.edu.pk/images/journal/HistoryPStudies/PDF-FILES/13-Saeed_V28_no2.pdf

Mirza of Mirza-Sahiban was also described as Kharral Jat (Wanjhal Khan Kharal was his name).
The Joiyas of Lodhran/Vehari region are Lakhwera or Daultana and they were part of the nomadic Bar tribes who were pastoralists until the 19th century when canal irrigation in the dry Bar tract was started by the British and they settled down.

Once I was travelling by motorway to gujranwala from Lahore.
Gave lift to a motorway police inspector ... during our chitchat.. he revealed that he was from Pindi bhattian and a Kharral...
Asked him the same question.. he replied that they are Rajputs but many others call themselves Jatts.. probably because they have been marrying among Jatts and living with them since ages.

Coming back to the Kharrals , of Kamalia, the area of the famous Ahmed Khan Kharral ... well they are proud of being Rajputs rather than Jatts etc...

Id personally think that there are several sub clans that either have same names to other clans ... or have some have intermingles with other groups..

For example the Khokars.

Half of them claim to be Rajputs, others claim to be Jatts and than some claim to be a seperate tribe..

Now the friend I'm talking about is from a well off political,(large) landowning family... PML Q... so I doubt that they just migrated to the region,claimed to be Rajputs and adopted Seriki.

I think they are best described as their own thing, the dialect that they speak too is Lahnda similar to Jhangochi, as well as being nomadic/pastoral and having curious traditions e.g
"The Lakhwera, Bhadera, Ghazi Khanana,Kulhera, Daulatana, Kamera and Manghersepts and a few others, observe the vinayak ceremony. This consists in slaughtering two rams (ghattas) and making a pulao (with rice cooked in ghi) of the flesh. This is given in charity in the name of their ancestor Allahditta who single-handed resisted a party of 50 Baloch who tried to raid the cattle he was tending in the Cholistan. Allahditta was killed, but his bravery is commemorated in the winaik and his tomb in the Taj-Sarwar is greatly frequented by the tribe."
This is somewhat similar to jathera/ancestor worship.