about Muslim Brahmins of Pakistan and Kashmir

[-blitzkrieg-]

Most of the pandits have changed their family names from 'pandit' to 'sheikh' (a muslim clergyman)
e.g. Sheikh Rasheed a prominent Pakistani politician.

 

[Sam.]

In Pakpattan district where most of them are, they are Jatts. It's confusing for many of these Bar tribes, as some of them are called Jatts others Rajputs. Now many of them only identify with their clan e.g Kharrals of Pakpattan/Sahiwal only identify
as Kharral and not Jat or Rajput.
Interesting thing about these Bar tribes is that they were nomadic or pastoral until the 19th century when most of the forested regions of the Bar were cleared by the British.
I think they are the original Sindhi Jats as described in the Chachnama as the population of Sindh was described as mostly made up of Buddhist Jatts or Meds who were nomadic/pastoral. Their clans are usually only Muslim exclusive as well (like Sial, Wattoo, Dogar etc.)

When animosity is finished between Pakistan and India,i would surely visit my jat brothers.

Once I was travelling by motorway to gujranwala from Lahore.
Gave lift to a motorway police inspector ... during our chitchat.. he revealed that he was from Pindi bhattian and a Kharral...
Asked him the same question.. he replied that they are Rajputs but many others call themselves Jatts.. probably because they have been marrying among Jatts and living with them since ages.

Coming back to the Kharrals , of Kamalia, the area of the famous Ahmed Khan Kharral ... well they are proud of being Rajputs rather than Jatts etc...

Id personally think that there are several sub clans that either have same names to other clans ... or have some have intermingles with other groups..

For example the Khokars.

Half of them claim to be Rajputs, others claim to be Jatts and than some claim to be a seperate tribe..

Now the friend I'm talking about is from a well off political,(large) landowning family... PML Q... so I doubt that they just migrated to the region,claimed to be Rajputs and adopted Seriki.

I am at work but when I get back I will add some points. You would be fascinated to hear as some surnames are same in jata and Rajputs such as Rana,Tanwar etc

Rai Ahmed Khan Kharral was from Jhamra (district Lyallpur/Faisalabad) not Kamalia.
The British account of the 1857 rebellion describes them as thus
"“In the district around are numerous Mohammedan tribes of Jut origin, at present degenerated into cattlefeeders and cattle-stealers, who nevertheless retained somewhat of their ancestral love of war and plunder; hundreds and thousands oh whom wanted only the opportunity and encouragement to spring up armed—for though nominally disarmed, what Punjabee does not know where to lay hands on his weapon in time of need?---and at the first sound of the war—cry, “Deen! Deen! (religion), in Moslem fanaticism, they would have made Mooltan their rallying-point.”
http://pu.edu.pk/images/journal/HistoryPStudies/PDF-FILES/13-Saeed_V28_no2.pdf

Mirza of Mirza-Sahiban was also described as Kharral Jat (Wanjhal Khan Kharal was his name).
The Joiyas of Lodhran/Vehari region are Lakhwera or Daultana and they were part of the nomadic Bar tribes who were pastoralists until the 19th century when canal irrigation in the dry Bar tract was started by the British and they settled down.


I think they are best described as their own thing, the dialect that they speak too is Lahnda similar to Jhangochi, as well as being nomadic/pastoral and having curious traditions e.g
"The Lakhwera, Bhadera, Ghazi Khanana,Kulhera, Daulatana, Kamera and Manghersepts and a few others, observe the vinayak ceremony. This consists in slaughtering two rams (ghattas) and making a pulao (with rice cooked in ghi) of the flesh. This is given in charity in the name of their ancestor Allahditta who single-handed resisted a party of 50 Baloch who tried to raid the cattle he was tending in the Cholistan. Allahditta was killed, but his bravery is commemorated in the winaik and his tomb in the Taj-Sarwar is greatly frequented by the tribe."
This is somewhat similar to jathera/ancestor worship.

Yes sir we follow jathera.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Rai Ahmed Khan Kharral was from Jhamra (district Lyallpur/Faisalabad) not Kamalia.
The British account of the 1857 rebellion describes them as thus
"“In the district around are numerous Mohammedan tribes of Jut origin, at present degenerated into cattlefeeders and cattle-stealers, who nevertheless retained somewhat of their ancestral love of war and plunder; hundreds and thousands oh whom wanted only the opportunity and encouragement to spring up armed—for though nominally disarmed, what Punjabee does not know where to lay hands on his weapon in time of need?---and at the first sound of the war—cry, “Deen! Deen! (religion), in Moslem fanaticism, they would have made Mooltan their rallying-point.”
http://pu.edu.pk/images/journal/HistoryPStudies/PDF-FILES/13-Saeed_V28_no2.pdf

Mirza of Mirza-Sahiban was also described as Kharral Jat (Wanjhal Khan Kharal was his name).
The Joiyas of Lodhran/Vehari region are Lakhwera or Daultana and they were part of the nomadic Bar tribes who were pastoralists until the 19th century when canal irrigation in the dry Bar tract was started by the British and they settled down.


I think they are best described as their own thing, the dialect that they speak too is Lahnda similar to Jhangochi, as well as being nomadic/pastoral and having curious traditions e.g
"The Lakhwera, Bhadera, Ghazi Khanana,Kulhera, Daulatana, Kamera and Manghersepts and a few others, observe the vinayak ceremony. This consists in slaughtering two rams (ghattas) and making a pulao (with rice cooked in ghi) of the flesh. This is given in charity in the name of their ancestor Allahditta who single-handed resisted a party of 50 Baloch who tried to raid the cattle he was tending in the Cholistan. Allahditta was killed, but his bravery is commemorated in the winaik and his tomb in the Taj-Sarwar is greatly frequented by the tribe."
This is somewhat similar to jathera/ancestor worship.

No Jatt uses "Rai" as a surname, only Rajputs do;


By caste, the Kharals are Rajput of the Agni-Kula descent. They link up their genealogy with Karan, a chivalrous character from Ramayana and were converted by Makhdoom Jahanian Shah Shareef. Saadat Ali Khan, a prominent Kharal, was granted a fiefdom in this locality by Aurangzeb .

Same article:

https://www.dawn.com/news/802754

They themselves claim to be Rajputs and use a Rajput surname.

 

[Radio Mirchi]

Hazrat Bin Qasim abolished hindu caste system in sindh valley.

Jhooth ki bhi hadd hoti hai. See whats mentioned about Bin Qasim s administration in Sindh. He protected Brahminism by allocating 3% of state revenues to them. So your claim about Bin Qasim abolished caste is as good as rubbish.

Administration by Muhammad bin Qasim[edit]
After the conquest, Muhammad bin Qasim's task was to set up an administrative structure for a stable Muslim state that incorporated a newly conquered alien land, inhabited by non-Muslims.[15] He adopted a conciliatory policy, asking for acceptance of Muslim rule by the natives in return for non-interference in their religious practice,[15] so long as the natives paid their taxes and tribute.[4] In return, the state provided protection to non-Muslim from any foreign attacks and enemies. He established Islamic Sharia law over the people of the region; however, Hindus were allowed to rule their villages and settle their disputes according to their own laws,[4] and traditional hierarchical institutions, including the Village Headmen (Rais) and Chieftains (dihqans) were maintained.[15] A Muslim officer called an amil was stationed with a troop of cavalry to manage each town on a hereditary basis [15]

Everywhere taxes (mal) and tribute (kharaj) were settled and hostages taken — occasionally this also meant the custodians of temples.[10] Non-Muslim natives were excused from military service and from payment of the religiously mandated tax system levied upon Muslims called Zakat,[15] the tax system levied upon them instead was the jizya - a progressive tax, being heavier on the upper classes and light for the poor.[15] In addition, three percent of government revenue was allocated to the Brahmins.[4]

 

[xairhossi]

No Jatt uses "Rai" as a surname, only Rajputs do;


By caste, the Kharals are Rajput of the Agni-Kula descent. They link up their genealogy with Karan, a chivalrous character from Ramayana and were converted by Makhdoom Jahanian Shah Shareef. Saadat Ali Khan, a prominent Kharal, was granted a fiefdom in this locality by Aurangzeb .

Same article:

https://www.dawn.com/news/802754

They themselves claim to be Rajputs and use a Rajput surname.

Rai is just a title, the Rai dynasty of Sindh who were Buddhists also used this while being Rajput and Buddhist is an oxymoron. Dawn article is hardly credible, as well tracing ancestory to Ramyana. These are likely nomadic/pastoral Jats or Meds of Sindh and South Punjab who were Buddhists as described in the Chachnama.

 

[Zibago]

Sounds like Bullshyt!
Makes no sense, when you Panjabis take pride in surnames like Rana,Raja,Sandhu,Chatha,Cheema etc and claim you are discriminated against ? In what way exactly ?


Awans aren't Brahmins or Jatts... they claim descent from Hazrat Ali... can be found in Panjab and even Afghanistan... a big tribe, nawab of kalabagh being their chief of sorts..

Although no proof of it (their links with Hazrat Ali), but there are no Hindu or Sikh awans..

He is no awan he is a Butt

Most of the pandits have changed their family names from 'pandit' to 'sheikh' (a muslim clergyman)
e.g. Sheikh Rasheed a prominent Pakistani politician.

Boss i too am a Sheikh Kashmiri bus chasky ley raha hoan @krash

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Rai is just a title, the Rai dynasty of Sindh who were Buddhists also used this while being Rajput and Buddhist is an oxymoron. Dawn article is hardly credible, as well tracing ancestory to Ramyana. These are likely nomadic/pastoral Jats or Meds of Sindh and South Punjab who were Buddhists as described in the Chachnama.

Rai is a title used by Rajputs of Panjab and Haryana ...

Rajputs and Buddhists are not interchangeable.
However Hinduism was never followed with much zeal in Panjab or Sindh ...

The link with karan... is claimed by none other than the Kharals ... there is also a registered Rajput forums and even a registered forum by kharrals of jhumra..

 

[-blitzkrieg-]

He is no awan he is a Butt


Boss i too am a Sheikh Kashmiri bus chasky ley raha hoan @krash

seikh rasheed aur chaskay laazim o malzoom hain

 

[xairhossi]

Rai is a title used by Rajputs of Panjab and Haryana ...

Rajputs and Buddhists are not interchangeable.
However Hinduism was never followed with much zeal in Panjab or Sindh ...

The link with karan... is claimed by none other than the Kharals ... there is also a registered Rajput forums and even a registered forum by kharrals of jhumra..

The only people in Punjab who use Rai are Kharrals, who speak a Lahnda dialect and are only present in a few districts in Punjab.
Rajput is a varna title, being Buddhist and Rajput is a straight up oxymoron rather than 'not being interchangeable'. As well as the mlechha description of Punjab in Mahbharta and other Hindu texts.
Many of them also claim descent from some vague place in Rajasthan or UP, but that is hardly credible either, especially due to genetics.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

The only people in Punjab who use Rai are Kharrals, who speak a Lahnda dialect and are only present in a few districts in Punjab.

Dude come with me, il take you to their villages and you can meet em.. and ask them if they are Rajputs or not...

Minus some from the pindi bhattian area!

Rajput is a varna title, being Buddhist and Rajput is a straight up oxymoron rather than 'not being interchangeable'. As well as the mlechha description of Punjab in Mahbharta and other Hindu texts.
Many of them also claim descent from some vague place in Rajasthan or UP, but that is hardly credible either, especially due to genetics.

Islam also doesn't recognise castes ? Yet you see people using em?

Religion has nothing to do with ones "heritage".

I can even show you Jatts who converted to Christianity.. there is a Basra family living in Narowal.. converted to Christianity during British reign.

And from what I've seen. Not a single Panjabi rajput claims to be from rajhisthan.

P.S; I know the descendants of Ahmed Khan through a mutual friend..

Rai Ahmed Khan Kharral was from Jhamra (district Lyallpur/Faisalabad) not Kamalia.
The British account of the 1857 rebellion describes them as thus
"“In the district around are numerous Mohammedan tribes of Jut origin, at present degenerated into cattlefeeders and cattle-stealers, who nevertheless retained somewhat of their ancestral love of war and plunder; hundreds and thousands oh whom wanted only the opportunity and encouragement to spring up armed—for though nominally disarmed, what Punjabee does not know where to lay hands on his weapon in time of need?---and at the first sound of the war—cry, “Deen! Deen! (religion), in Moslem fanaticism, they would have made Mooltan their rallying-point.”
http://pu.edu.pk/images/journal/HistoryPStudies/PDF-FILES/13-Saeed_V28_no2.pdf

Mirza of Mirza-Sahiban was also described as Kharral Jat (Wanjhal Khan Kharal was his name).
The Joiyas of Lodhran/Vehari region are Lakhwera or Daultana and they were part of the nomadic Bar tribes who were pastoralists until the 19th century when canal irrigation in the dry Bar tract was started by the British and they settled down.


I think they are best described as their own thing, the dialect that they speak too is Lahnda similar to Jhangochi, as well as being nomadic/pastoral and having curious traditions e.g
"The Lakhwera, Bhadera, Ghazi Khanana,Kulhera, Daulatana, Kamera and Manghersepts and a few others, observe the vinayak ceremony. This consists in slaughtering two rams (ghattas) and making a pulao (with rice cooked in ghi) of the flesh. This is given in charity in the name of their ancestor Allahditta who single-handed resisted a party of 50 Baloch who tried to raid the cattle he was tending in the Cholistan. Allahditta was killed, but his bravery is commemorated in the winaik and his tomb in the Taj-Sarwar is greatly frequented by the tribe."
This is somewhat similar to jathera/ancestor worship.

Nepal also had similiar culture as Panjab and Sindh when it came to brahmanism...

If you read Sepoy and the Raj by David Omissi...

You would come to read about these facts from British accounts.

The British used Gurkhas and Panjabis in central/north India who had equal dislike for brahmanism.

 

[xairhossi]

Dude come with me, il take you to their villages and you can meet em.. and ask them if they are Rajputs or not...

Minus some from the pindi bhattian area!

I am from district Pakpattan, here many Manj Rajputs ,who use 'Rana' title, from East Punjab settled after partition and they do not identify with the local Kharrals and Joiyas. Identifying as something matters for little, anyone can identify as anything.

Islam also doesn't recognise castes ? Yet you see people using em?
Religion has nothing to do with ones "heritage".

It's not the varna system which is exclusive to Hinduism. And in this context, it does.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I am from district Pakpattan, here many Manj Rajputs ,who use 'Rana' title, from East Punjab settled after partition and they do not identify with the local Kharrals and Joiyas. Identifying as something matters for little, anyone can identify as anything.

It's not the varna system which is exclusive to Hinduism. And in this context, it does.

Meanwhile the Manj of Sheikhupura only use "Manj" as surname.

Also the Rajputs who migrated in 47.. don't marry or "mingle" among the local Rajputs... heck even the Panjabi Rajputs don't mingle with the rohatki aka haryanvi Rajputs.

 

[krash]

"[Serious]"

I saw this image on reddit few hours ago and do it have sparked number of questions in my mind.

These results the people Indian army have killed in Kashmir. And i hve noticed that majority of them are actually Kashmiri Pundits who converted to Islam.

1) why these brahmins converts to Islam ? And when ?

2) how Muslims view these converted brahmins? Do they get respect in Pakistani or Kashmiri society?

3) how muslims view these muslims who have "pundit" surname specifically?

4) do they intermarry with other muslims ? Do they have their own biradaris?

5) how Muslims brahmins view their heritage? And sanskrit.

6) how Pashtuns,Baloch view these brahmins? And Rajputs?

We dont have muslim brahmins in north india beside kashmir and Pakistani punjab so I posted this in Pakistani history section.

@Mian Babban and @DESERT FIGHTER being a pashtun and Baloch your answers are much needed and highly valuable/ credible for us.

@waz keep this thread clean please.

My great-grandfather, Pandit Mansanath, converted to Islam after studying the religion under a local Muslim scholar in Srinagar. In those times Muslim scholars and teachers were given the title of a 'Sheikh' and thus it became a very respected title within the Muslim community. So when my great-grandfather converted he changed his surname from Pandit to 'Sheikh'. This practice became the practice for many converts, so much so that there came a time when the surname 'Sheikh' signified that you were a convert (as alluded to by @-blitzkrieg-). This is the reason why this particular surname is found across pretty much all the ethnicities of the region and has no ethnic or tribal significance, as compared to most surnames in the region.

1) We converted because our ancestors thought Islam to be the true path.

2) We are not seen as Muslim Pundits or converts at all. We have taken new identities void of religious connotations, e.g. I am a Kashmiri and that is all I am known by if at all. I identify as a Pakistani with Kashmiri ethnicity, period.

3) I haven't met a Muslim with 'Pundit' as their surname. As mentioned before, we changed our surnames. We are however seen as any other Muslim, at most we are distinguished by our ethnicity, e.g. Kashmiri.

4) We used to try to marry within other Kashmiris but it wasn't a strict rule at all, it was instead just a preference due to cultural reasons. Over the years this preference has become even less important. For example, one of my uncles married a non-Kashmiri. I come from a strict Kashmiri lineage but have married a Rajput. No one really cares enough for it to have any effect. Our biradaris were strictly based on ethnicity and weren't strict biradaris at all. Kashmiris are known to be more open minded to assimilation and integration, at least on this side of the border. Within the Kashmiri biradari there is no distinction between former Brahmin Kashmiris and former non-Brahmin Kashmiris.

5) We mostly see our heritage through our ethnic ancestry without any religious colours to it. The modern Pakistani though is increasingly more interested and accepting of his/her pre-Islam heritage.

6) Like I mentioned before, no one really cares for our Brahmin past, not even us. And I am an example of a Muslim from Brahmin ancestry who married into Rajputs. My maternal side (also formerly Kashmiri Brahmins) is heavily married into Balochs and Pashtuns. Most of them moved to Quetta after moving from Kashmir.

ps: Nawaz Sharif is from the Lahori Kashmiri Biradari as well. Don't know if he comes from Brahmin roots or not. @Zibago does though, haha.

He is no awan he is a Butt


Boss i too am a Sheikh Kashmiri bus chasky ley raha hoan @krash

Sheikh sahab, aap baaz na ana

 

[xairhossi]

Meanwhile the Manj of Sheikhupura only use "Manj" as surname.

Also the Rajputs who migrated in 47.. don't marry among the local Rajputs... heck even the Panjabi Rajputs don't mingle with the rohatki aka haryanvi Rajputs.

They use Rana as the title and Manj as the surname.
The actual Rajputs of Punjab are 'ranas' of Majha/upper Punjab and East Punjab.
And yes, Ranghars marry within themselves only, a lot of them settled in district Pakpattan as well.

 

[Zibago]

My great-grandfather, Pandit Mansanath, converted to Islam after studying the religion under a local Muslim scholar in Srinagar. In those times Muslim scholars and teachers were given the title of a 'Sheikh' and thus it became a very respected title within the Muslim community. So when my great-grandfather converted he changed his surname from Pandit to 'Sheikh'. This practice became the practice for many converts, so much so that there came a time when the surname 'Sheikh' signified that you were a convert (as alluded to by @-blitzkrieg-). This is the reason why this particular surname is found across pretty much all the ethnicities of the region and has no ethnic or tribal significance, as compared to most surnames in the region.

1) We converted because our ancestors thought Islam to be the true path.

2) We are not seen as Muslim Pundits or converts at all. We have taken new identities void of religious connotations, e.g. I am a Kashmiri and that is all I am known by if at all. I identify as a Pakistani with Kashmiri ethnicity, period.

3) I haven't met a Muslim with 'Pundit' as their surname. As mentioned before, we changed our surnames. We are however seen as any other Muslims, at most we are distinguished by our ethnicity, e.g. Kashmiri.

4) We used to try to marry within other Kashmiris but it wasn't a strict rule at all, it was instead just a preference due to cultural reasons. Over the years this preference has become even less important. For example, one of my uncles married a non-Kashmiri. I come from a strict Kashmiri lineage but have married a Rajput. No one really cares enough for it to have any effect. Our biradaris were strictly based on ethnicity and weren't strict biradaris at all. Kashmiris are known to be more open minded to assimilation and integration, at least on this side of the border. Within the Kashmiri biradari there is no distinction between former Brahmin Kashmiris and former non-Brahmin Kashmiris.

5) We mostly see our heritage through our ethnic ancestry without any religious colours to it. The modern Pakistani though is increasingly more interested and accepting of his/her pre-Islam heritage.

6) Like I mentioned before, no one really cares for our Brahmin past, not even us. And I am an example of a Muslim from Brahmin ancestry who married into Rajputs. My maternal side (also formerly Kashmiri Brahmins) is heavily married into Balochs and Pashtuns. Most of them moved to Quetta after moving from Kashmir.

ps: Nawaz Sharif is from the Lahori Kashmiri Biradari as well. Don't know if he comes from Brahmin roots or not. @Zibago does though, haha.



Sheikh sahab, aap baaz na ana

Jigar ab agar bata doan kay merey pardada bhi convert hoye thay to inhon nay ajeeb sawal start karney hain acha nahi hy key bus chaskey lo