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Abandoning status as "Islamic Republic"

What direction do you want Pakistan to follow?

  • Secular

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Just because our religion is hijacked by people who propagate sectarianism does not mean we start support secularism. It is our fault that we failed to implement the Quran in our own lives. That's we have who are brain washing people in the name of religion. I support Islamic Law for our state. The only problem is its implementation.
Look my friend I know where you are coming from. Well over 1,000 years ago Islam saw sectarian split and ever since unity of thought and interpretation has alluded the ummah. If anything over time matters have got even mored divided. There are today more interpretations of Islam fighting each other all as sure as you that what they regard is Islam is the true Islam. Therefore from practical point of running a state finding and defining exactly one interpretation of Islam and making 195 million people follow that is impossible. All you will do is create civil war and more internecine warfare as we have already witnessed. TTP are in quest to enforce true Islam on Pakistan. They are so sure of their cause that they are prepared to fight and die for it as they regard themselves as Allah's warriors.

So while people like you search for one interpretation that all can agree (which has thus far alluded in over 1,000 years) and then find the 9/10s of the vital equation which is how to implement it can we please free the state from religion so Pakistan can be secured and solid state built up so that millions don't have migrate to secular lands - the very thing that everybody is against.
 
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Bhai kisi arabi ko chera to wapis ana parey ga na :D


We implemented parts of it and the results are there for us to see utter chaos

These are the same set of laws that helped Ramon Davis and Sharukh Jatoi escape they are a loop hope for the wealthy to buy their way out of murder

The alternate is what is done in rest of world try them and jail them no blood money no pardoning
You said the alternate is what is done in the "rest of the world" right? What happened in Pakistan is exactly what happens in the rest of the world. US was forcing us to free that person. Under Islamic law that person should have been given death penalty and just for my knowledge can you tell me that how many times the government use the diyat law before this. Why just for davis?

Look my friend I know where you are coming from. Well over 1,000 years ago Islam saw sectarian split and ever since unity of thought and interpretation has alluded the ummah. If anything over time matters have got even mored divided. There are today more interpretations of Islam fighting each other all as sure as you that what they regard is Islam is the true Islam. Therefore from practical point of running a state finding and defining exactly one interpretation of Islam and making 195 million people follow that is impossible. All you will do is create civil war and more internecine warfare as we have already witnessed. TTP are in quest to enforce true Islam on Pakistan. They are so sure of their cause that they are prepared to fight and die for it as they regard themselves as Allah's warriors.

So while people like you search for one interpretation that all can agree (which has thus far alluded in over 1,000 years) and then find the 9/10s of the vital equation which is how to implement it can we please free the state from religion so Pakistan can be secured and solid state built up so that millions don't have migrate to secular lands - the very thing that everybody is against.
Brother islam is not what happened after the prophet (peace be upon him) or what some groups did or did not. It is not what we like or dislike. Is it not very clearly stated in the Quran that those who have divided the religion has not relation with the prophet. Our religion is not based on the principle of "what my baap dada did is islam" it is what written in the Quran and even if the muslim majority deviate from it does not mean that Islam is something other than Quran. There are ways mentioned in the quran which we should follow in case of disputes but we consider ourselves the sages of the modern world. The split in the muslim world is on stuff like who was was right or who was wrong. It has nothing to do with the quran. You tell me honestly based on you observation. Those who come up with different interpretations of Islam, do they really follow Quran? Do you know why our enemies were successful in brain washing our own people. The reason is that our people our such high level people that they don't bother to read Quran. They know how to go to a maulvi or a pir but don't know what to do with the Quran.

Bhai kisi arabi ko chera to wapis ana parey ga na :D


We implemented parts of it and the results are there for us to see utter chaos

These are the same set of laws that helped Ramon Davis and Sharukh Jatoi escape they are a loop hope for the wealthy to buy their way out of murder

The alternate is what is done in rest of world try them and jail them no blood money no pardoning
and just for the record you remember that why Shah Mehmood Qureshi the then foreign minister resigned or got removed. right? Your "rest of the world" law forced him to do so.

I don't know how to describe my feelings when i was reading an article by an non muslim author who was talking against Islam and he wrote at the end of the article that the Quran does not allow sectarianism. I mean come on!!! A non muslim knows that and the people we follow doesn't have a clue. Once my teacher was talking about sectarianism, sunni shia etc and i asked him that which of the sect is the real muslim. He h just gave a laugh. He had no answer for that. So please stop thinking that quran cannot be implemented just because one group says that during ablution you have to wash hands three times and the other group says no its four times.
 
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No way. We are Muslims and we don't want to abandon this identity as a nation and what it entails. This is regardless of any worldy gain it may get us. Having said that, no one with even a little bit of understanding of Islam would support what some criminals are doing these days in the name of Islam. All we need is to unite on the basics of Islam rather than fight on trivialities.
 
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Are you trying to make our fun or something like that. History is not reality
I'm not making fun at all. I'm asking a serious question: do you consider the Ottoman abandonment of sharia to be a form of treason to the Ottoman's people or state or not?
 
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You said the alternate is what is done in the "rest of the world" right? What happened in Pakistan is exactly what happens in the rest of the world. US was forcing us to free that person. Under Islamic law that person should have been given death penalty and just for my knowledge can you tell me that how many times the government use the diyat law before this. Why just for davis?


Brother islam is not what happened after the prophet (peace be upon him) or what some groups did or did not. It is not what we like or dislike. Is it not very clearly stated in the Quran that those who have divided the religion has not relation with the prophet. Our religion is not based on the principle of "what my baap dada did is islam" it is what written in the Quran and even if the muslim majority deviate from it does not mean that Islam is something other than Quran. There are ways mentioned in the quran which we should follow in case of disputes but we consider ourselves the sages of the modern world. The split in the muslim world is on stuff like who was was right or who was wrong. It has nothing to do with the quran. You tell me honestly based on you observation. Those who come up with different interpretations of Islam, do they really follow Quran? Do you know why our enemies were successful in brain washing our own people. The reason is that our people our such high level people that they don't bother to read Quran. They know how to go to a maulvi or a pir but don't know what to do with the Quran.


and just for the record you remember that why Shah Mehmood Qureshi the then foreign minister resigned or got removed. right? Your "rest of the world" law forced him to do so.

I don't know how to describe my feelings when i was reading an article by an non muslim author who was talking against Islam and he wrote at the end of the article that the Quran does not allow sectarianism. I mean come on!!! A non muslim knows that and the people we follow doesn't have a clue. Once my teacher was talking about sectarianism, sunni shia etc and i asked him that which of the sect is the real muslim. He h just gave a laugh. He had no answer for that. So please stop thinking that quran cannot be implemented just because one group says that during ablution you have to wash hands three times and the other group says no its four times.
Nope our blood money law freed him we didnt have one he wouldve never been free our law provided him the loop because according to that law relatives can pardon a killer which is wrong
 
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Pakistan as a nation has lost there true identit
What was the true identity of Pakistan?

What's in a name? It's all about Niyet and Hareket. By the by, for the die hard secularist, what's next? Banning Ezan, Hijab, Kuran-i Kerim, Din, Ahlaq, etc. - Turkish secularist did all of those and more than that only to be gone from power forever..
So that people like you can destroy the country?
In what state is our country thanks to the sultan and followers?
We have a diyanet isleri bakanligi (ministry of religious affairs) http://www.diyanet.gov.tr/ taking care of religious affairs.
We never banned Din,Ezan Kuran-i Kerim,you are talking bs.
Ahlaq is what you get when you grow up,it has nothing to do with Din but with culture and society.
Who gave you Ahlak dersi(lessons)?
Dont talk bs to score points with Pakistanis,even M.Ali Jinnah(Grey Wolf) was an admiror of Ataturk and wanted the same system for his country but the Islamist lobby was to strong so he had to go with Islamic Republik of Pakistan,and after his passing away,the Islamists turned Pakistan into what it is now.
Maybe you should take some history lessons about the creation of Pakistan first?
A tip,start with the meaning of the flag.
 
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This is false argument that I hear often. There is never any point in existance beyond the entity itself? What is point of existance of US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Belguim, Saudia Arabia, Yeman and on and on. You exist therefore you are. When I woke this morning I did not start asking what is point of my existance. What matters is you exist.

The entity that existed prior to 1947 was entirely created by Britain. It was Made in Britain. Yes Pakistan is majority Muslim amd the provinces that make it were Muslim dominant before 1947. Those of us who support secularism do so not because (most) are against Islam. The problem in pakistan is there are dozens of splinters of Islam with major Shia/Sunni divide. Bringing religion into the public realm just opens up can of worms because those diffferant religious groups led by Mullah's try to get their brand of Islam to shape the state. This is recipe for Mullah madness and continous infighting which happens in Pakistan. We need to go back to the set up during President Ayub Khan's days.


And they do today. However how will secularism take the country away from them? They are 97% majority and they will remain Muslim.

Absolute bullcrap.

Only Islam can hold Pakistan together. In the case of any separatist uprising, only religion can hold Pakistan together.

Look at East Pakistan in 1971. All the Bengali Islamists rallied to the cause of defending Pakistan. Whilst all the secularists backed the creation of Bangladesh.

Do you still need proof about the importance, even today, of Pakistan's raison d'etre?

Pakistan's Islamic ideology needs to be reinforced again and again in every kid so that everyone is a firm Islamist. And so that the secularists are weeded out. Only then can Pakistan's unity be guaranteed.
 
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Absolute bullcrap.

Only Islam can hold Pakistan together. In the case of any separatist uprising, only religion can hold Pakistan together.

Look at East Pakistan in 1971. All the Bengali Islamists rallied to the cause of defending Pakistan. Whilst all the secularists backed the creation of Bangladesh.

Do you still need proof about the importance, even today, of Pakistan's raison d'etre?

Pakistan's Islamic ideology needs to be reinforced again and again in every kid so that everyone is a firm Islamist. And so that the secularists are weeded out. Only then can Pakistan's unity be guaranteed.
And you are living in Australia?
 
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Dont talk bs to score points with Pakistanis,even M.Ali Jinnah(Grey Wolf) was an admiror of Ataturk and wanted the same system for his country but the Islamist lobby was to strong so he had to go with Islamic Republik of Pakistan,and after his passing away,the Islamists turned Pakistan into what it is now.
Maybe you should take some history lessons about the creation of Pakistan first?
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A few things which Jinnah said:

"Pakistan not only means freedom and independence but the Muslim Ideology which has to be preserved, which has come to us as a precious gift and treasure and which, we hope other will share with us."

This sums it up very well for those who think that an Islamic state means a state like KSA or IS:
"The constitution of Pakistan has yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. I do not know what the ultimate shape of this constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principle of Islam. Today, they are as applicable in actual life as they were 1,300 years ago. Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of man, justice and fairplay to everybody. We are the inheritors of these glorious traditions and are fully alive to our responsibilities and obligations as framers of the future constitution of Pakistan. In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims --Hindus, Christians, and Parsis --but they are all Pakistanis."

On the inauguration of state bank:
"I shall watch with keenness the work of your Research Organization in evolving banking practices compatible with Islamic ideas of social and economic life. The economic system of the West has created almost insoluble problems for humanity and to many of us it appears that only a miracle can save it from disaster that is not facing the world. It has failed to do justice between man and man and to eradicate friction from the international field. On the contrary, it was largely responsible for the two world wars in the last half century. ..."

There are many other quotes like these but it is the secular lobby which has repainted Jinnah, not the Islamist lobby as you have wrongly claimed. By no way Jinnah wanted a theocracy ,but he wanted the Islamic social-economic system to be implemented in Pakistan.
and after his passing away,the Islamists turned Pakistan into what it is now.
Which Islamists? The seculars have been in power since 47. Name one Islamic party which ever formed a government in Pakistan. There are many other problems like corruption and incompetent leaders, blaming Islamists is a cheap tactic which seculars employ in order to walk away from every responsibility.
A tip,start with the meaning of the flag.
You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or any other place of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion caste or creed – that has nothing to do with the business of the state”.

That does not invalidate any of the above quotes of Jinnah.
 
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Which Islamists? The seculars have been in power since 47. Name one Islamic party which ever formed a government in Pakistan. There are many other problems like corruption and incompetent leaders, blaming Islamists is a cheap tactic which seculars employ in order to walk away from every responsibility.
The name was ''Republic of Pakistan'' but changed into ''Islamic Republic of Pakistan in 1956,how and why did that happen?
This was not what Quaid-e-Azam wanted.
And what about Zia ul Haq?

Dictator Muhammad Zia ul Haq was the sixth President of Pakistan from 1978 until his death in 1988. Having declared martial law for the third time in the country’s history in 1977, he ruled for 11 years. His period is known as a black period in Pakistani history, particularly due to increased discrimination against religious minorities and women.

Proactive Islamization started in Zia’s period. He introduced many discriminatory laws. These laws and institutions include anti-blasphemy laws, separate votes for minorities, Hudood ordinance and law of evidence (Qanoon-e-Shahadat), ushar and zakat (Islamic taxes), establishment of Shari’ah court, laws according to Islamic injunctions and establishment of Council of Islamic Ideology. These laws were obviously made to Islamize Pakistani society.

Zia introduced the Shari’ah court by amending the Constitution, which promoted religiosity and ultimately strengthened Islamic fanatics and extremist organisations. The purpose of the Federal Shari’ah Court not only jeopardised the judicial system of the country, but also impaired the independence of Parliament. The Islamic values enshrined in the Qur’an and Sunnah became part of that country’s criminal law.

These provisions and the Islamic punishments—which included stoning to death, amputation of hands and feet and flogging in public—were also made applicable to non-Muslim citizens of the country. Minorities have consistently raised their voice against the application of the Shari’ah to which they do not belong. Women have been very critical of the enforcement of these laws too, particularly the laws relating to adultery and rape.

The Constitution of Pakistan contradicts itself in many ways. On the one hand, it ensures protection of minorities and on the other discriminates against minorities and treats them as second class citizens. Some of the articles in the Constitution of Pakistan guarantee equal rights and protection of minorities. Article 20-21-22 guarantees religious freedom and safeguards to all its citizens; Article 19, freedom of speech and expression. Article 25 says that all citizen are equal before the law.

Article 36 assures that the state shall safeguard the legitimate rights and interests of minorities. Yet, Article 2 says Islam shall be the state religion. Similarly, Article 41 says that the President of the state must be a Muslim. In addition, the prime minister of Pakistan must also be a Muslim.

1. Blasphemy laws in Pakistan are in conflict with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, in particular with Article 7 (equality before the law and protection against discrimination, Article 19 (freedom of opinion and expression) and Article 18 (freedom of thought, conscience, and religion).

2. Blasphemy laws in Pakistan are also in violation of Articles 2, 3 and 4 of the Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Intolerance and Discrimination Based on Religion and Belief, which categorically prohibits religious discrimination.

3. Blasphemy laws violate articles 2 and 4 of the Declaration on the Rights of Persons Belonging to National or Ethnic, Religious and Linguistic Minorities, too, which seek to protect fundamental freedoms “without any form of discrimination” and the right to freely “profess and practice their own religion”.


Islamist ruined Pakistans future and with most of the population being ''Islamists'',what is there to say?
 
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The name was ''Republic of Pakistan'' but changed into ''Islamic Republic of Pakistan in 1956,how and why did that happen?
This was not what Quaid-e-Azam wanted.
And what about Zia ul Haq?

Dictator Muhammad Zia ul Haq was the sixth President of Pakistan from 1978 until his death in 1988. Having declared martial law for the third time in the country’s history in 1977, he ruled for 11 years. His period is known as a black period in Pakistani history, particularly due to increased discrimination against religious minorities and women.

Proactive Islamization started in Zia’s period. He introduced many discriminatory laws. These laws and institutions include anti-blasphemy laws, separate votes for minorities, Hudood ordinance and law of evidence (Qanoon-e-Shahadat), ushar and zakat (Islamic taxes), establishment of Shari’ah court, laws according to Islamic injunctions and establishment of Council of Islamic Ideology. These laws were obviously made to Islamize Pakistani society.

Zia introduced the Shari’ah court by amending the Constitution, which promoted religiosity and ultimately strengthened Islamic fanatics and extremist organisations. The purpose of the Federal Shari’ah Court not only jeopardised the judicial system of the country, but also impaired the independence of Parliament. The Islamic values enshrined in the Qur’an and Sunnah became part of that country’s criminal law.

These provisions and the Islamic punishments—which included stoning to death, amputation of hands and feet and flogging in public—were also made applicable to non-Muslim citizens of the country. Minorities have consistently raised their voice against the application of the Shari’ah to which they do not belong. Women have been very critical of the enforcement of these laws too, particularly the laws relating to adultery and rape.

The Constitution of Pakistan contradicts itself in many ways. On the one hand, it ensures protection of minorities and on the other discriminates against minorities and treats them as second class citizens. Some of the articles in the Constitution of Pakistan guarantee equal rights and protection of minorities. Article 20-21-22 guarantees religious freedom and safeguards to all its citizens; Article 19, freedom of speech and expression. Article 25 says that all citizen are equal before the law.

Article 36 assures that the state shall safeguard the legitimate rights and interests of minorities. Yet, Article 2 says Islam shall be the state religion. Similarly, Article 41 says that the President of the state must be a Muslim. In addition, the prime minister of Pakistan must also be a Muslim.

1. Blasphemy laws in Pakistan are in conflict with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, in particular with Article 7 (equality before the law and protection against discrimination, Article 19 (freedom of opinion and expression) and Article 18 (freedom of thought, conscience, and religion).

2. Blasphemy laws in Pakistan are also in violation of Articles 2, 3 and 4 of the Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Intolerance and Discrimination Based on Religion and Belief, which categorically prohibits religious discrimination.

3. Blasphemy laws violate articles 2 and 4 of the Declaration on the Rights of Persons Belonging to National or Ethnic, Religious and Linguistic Minorities, too, which seek to protect fundamental freedoms “without any form of discrimination” and the right to freely “profess and practice their own religion”.


Islamist ruined Pakistans future and with most of the population being ''Islamists'',what is there to say?

I do not see how any Muslim can have a problem with the above laws.
 
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I do not see how any Muslim can have a problem with the above laws.
And that is why your country is going backward instead of forward,because you(the majority) dont see or want to see whats wrong.
Name one ''Islamist'' country doing well without oil/gas money.
 
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Name one country that fully applies shariah.
Why not answer my question?
You cant answer my question,thats why you are avoiding it by asking just another question.
Think about what i wrote and do some thinking or ask around.
Btw,im also a Muslim but religion has no place in government,ill leave it here.
 
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