A year for the First Flotilla to Gaza: Turkey was found Guilty by UN

[Mosamania]

The age limit only in the Haram a-Shrif (temple mount) is a result of the riots of Muslims who came allegedly to pray there and exploited this right to attack the security forces and Jewish prayers in the Western Wall. However, as far as I know, the age limit regularly is not imposed only when there is a risk for another round of riots.

Israel secure the religious rights of all the believers and it is part of its policy since its independence.

On the other hand, does KSA allow any Muslim to visit Mecca while non-Muslims are not even allowed to visit as tourists?

Here is a testimony of a Saudi citizen before US Congress about the religious apartheid in KSA:

"Saudi Arabia is a glaring example of religious apartheid. The religious institutions from government clerics to judges, to religious curricula, and all religious instructions in media are restricted to the Wahhabi understanding of Islam, adhered to by less than 40% of the population. The Saudi government communized Islam, through its monopoly of both religious thoughts and practice. Wahhabi Islam is imposed and enforced on all Saudis regardless of their religious orientations. The Wahhabi sect does not tolerate other religious or ideological beliefs, Muslim or not. Religious symbols by Muslims, Christians, Jewish and other believers are all banned. The Saudi embassy in Washington is a living example of religious apartheid. In its 50 years, there has not been a single non-Sunni Muslim diplomat in the embassy. The branch of Imam Mohamed Bin Saud University in Fairfax, Virginia instructs its students that Shia Islam is a Jewish conspiracy".

Is this true? More lecturing for Israel about religious freedom?

Umm when something is true I will admit it but this is not true. Non-muslims are allowed into saudi arabia as tourists and as whatever. btw In my university there is an American jewish lecturer I don't see him getting into any trouble. we do have some clerics tha really require some kicking but besides that people in general are very tolerant of any religion wither it be Hindu or christian or jewish. some rules will be changed with time.

And by the way do not project your short comings into KSA for my country never claimed the things yours claim if anything you just exactly formilated what I say to be true. and thank you for that.

 

[nirreich]

Umm when something is true I will admit it but this is not true. Non-muslims are allowed into saudi arabia as tourists and as whatever. btw In my university there is an American jewish lecturer I don't see him getting into any trouble. we do have some clerics tha really require some kicking but besides that people in general are very tolerant of any religion wither it be Hindu or christian or jewish. some rules will be changed with time.

And by the way do not project your short comings into KSA for my country never claimed the things yours claim if anything you just exactly formilated what I say to be true. and thank you for that.

I talked about non-Muslim tourists visiting Mecca and the quote deals with the entire religious system in KSA, so you did not reply directly to the post.

I just quoted a Saudi scholar who testified on the situation in KSA.

 

[Zeeshan360]

I talked about non-Muslim tourists visiting Mecca and the quote deals with the entire religious system in KSA, so you did not reply directly to the post.

I just quoted a Saudi scholar who testified on the situation in KSA.

Non muslims arent allowed only in Makkah and Madina .
They are allowed everywhere else in Saudi Arabia
It has mainly to do with influx of population in Makkah and Madinah during Haj . There is no place to move even for muslims , forget about non-muslims
Population of Muslims is very large compared to Jews so ppl visiting pilgrimage places are also very high .

I frankly dont support this law of keeping non-muslims away from religious places .
Saudi government could arrange some extra things for non-muslim tourists , keeping the time of visiting separated from Haj timings,etc .
Here in India , many ppl convert to Hinduism by visiting holy places of Hindus .
The same thing could be about Makkah and madinah . Seeing the beauty of those places any1 could convert the religion

 

[nirreich]

Yes but that is your opinion that Arab media is a propaganda outlet..the same can be said by Israel which is sickening in my opinion. End of the day you won't change your opinion because you love your Nation, fair enough but don't expect others or quite frankly me to change my opinion.

I expect you to be honest and treat Israel like any other country and not to false accusation about genocide. Everyone has the legitimacy to criticise Israel, like I can criticise Pakistan I have criticism against my government.

At least be fair in your criticism and do not portray Israel as pure evil which is far from by using a more severe scale than you are using even when portraying Pakistan. Like your viciously twisted about about the unfortunate casualties among civilian Palestinian while ignoring the cynical use Hamas and other Palestinian terror organisations are doing with them as human shields because their terrorists are cowards who are rightfully afraid of the Israeli army.

Regarding your criticism about the Jews remembering the Holocaust, it is pathetic. Anyone who is human should learn what happened in order that history would not repeat itself. I am proud that the Jewish people do not let humanity to forget how low it deteriorated in WWII, and that Israel is making a lot of efforts to maintain the memory while there are so many Holocaust deniers, unfortunately significant part of them are Muslims.

 

[ephone]

It was underdeveloped with less than half a million people when the Zionist movement began to establish Jewish communities and to develop the country. Later, in WWI, the British conquered the country and began to develop it properly.

Using "less developed by one country" as argument for taking over is baseless.

I do not think many people are convinced by such fake theory.

Otherwise, another country can go into China (or any country), grab our less-developed areas and give to some people to set up a new country???

What British did during those years were despicable invasion into other countries, grabbing their resources and colonizing territories all over the world. It was the darkest pages for many people over the world including Africa, Mid-east, India and South and East Asia as well as many american countries.

Isn't this what Japan was trying to do during WWII and even before that? It sent millions of settlers in China Northeast, where it is my home town, later grabbed that area, setting up some puppet Manchurian state and was on the way to annex it from China. Well, of course, it failed.

However, as my hometown, even it was under-developed then, would China (even people there) permit it to be taken out of China? About Jerusalem, I am not sure about its population history. However, I doubt that it had a jewish majority during ottoman empire period even though it was lenient towards the jews most of the time, since it is also a holy city towards muslim over the world. I think most jewish people migrated there during british colonization period. Otherwise, jewish and muslim conflicts would have started long time ago.

You know my past posts that I am definitely not antisemitism. Israel should look forward to find a solution. It can only find more trouble when looking backward.

 

[nirreich]

Using "less developed by one country" as argument for taking over is baseless.

I do not think many people are convinced by such fake theory.

Otherwise, another country can go into China (or any country), grab our less-developed areas and give to some people to set up a new country???

What British did during those years were despicable invasion into other countries, grabbing their resources and colonizing territories all over the world. It was the darkest pages for many people over the world including Africa, Mid-east, India and South and East Asia as well as many american countries.

Isn't this what Japan was trying to do during WWII and even before that? It sent millions of settlers in China Northeast, where it is my home town, later grabbed that area, setting up some puppet Manchurian state and was on the way to annex it from China. Well, of course, it failed.

However, as my hometown, even it was under-developed then, would China (even people there) permit it to be taken out of China? About Jerusalem, I am not sure about its population history. However, I doubt that it had a jewish majority during ottoman empire period even though it was lenient towards the jews most of the time, since it is also a holy city towards muslim over the world. I think most jewish people migrated there during british colonization period. Otherwise, jewish and muslim conflicts would have started long time ago.

You know my past posts that I am definitely not antisemitism. Israel should look forward to find a solution. It can only find more trouble when looking backward.

The Jews did not come from Britain and were not part of their Colonialism. I emphasised that the land was deserted in order to illustrate that the Jews did not throw out the Arabs when establishing their towns and villages. On the contrary, they helped Arabs settlements to develop and provided them with health and agrarian services.

Unlike English population who settled outside its country and generally wanted to use the local resources for Britain, the Jews did not exploit local resources for a foreign Empire, but came to establish their own state. The Jews returned to their historic homeland while they already had a constant presence in this country for centuries - when the Zionist movement began its activity, Jerusalem already had a Jewish Majority. So, We are talking on completely different historical processes.

BTW, the colonialism period indeed has responsibility for the problematic situation of countries around the world. However, I resent the use of these countries in the blame feelings of many European in order to take the advantage and exert compensation and even worse - not to take any responsibility for their situation even more than half a century after the colonial period.

 

[nirreich]

 

[Tshering22]

I don't see where either of the countries were to blame in first place. First of all, as per some reports, the flotilla was carrying a Turkish flag but didn't have registration of Turkey. It had some Turkish nationals and some others as well (as per some articles I read). So basically in shipping terms, this was a third party flotilla. Israel encountered it since the flotilla's aim was to enter into Israeli territory what is disputed by her neighbours.

There was a call for proper checking of equipment onboard when things got rough, pressing Israelis to fire in retaliation. After a couple of days, Turkish authorities get angry and start getting involved continuing a previously started criticism against Israelis. Erdogan goes all the way promising retribution and announcing that future flotilla will be escorted by naval ships.

So let me get this straight: Israel and Turkey practically got on a collision course due to a third party ship (as per what some reports say)? I don't get it how either of the countries are to be blamed in such scenario.

 

[nirreich]

I don't see where either of the countries were to blame in first place. First of all, as per some reports, the flotilla was carrying a Turkish flag but didn't have registration of Turkey. It had some Turkish nationals and some others as well (as per some articles I read). So basically in shipping terms, this was a third party flotilla. Israel encountered it since the flotilla's aim was to enter into Israeli territory what is disputed by her neighbours.

There was a call for proper checking of equipment onboard when things got rough, pressing Israelis to fire in retaliation. After a couple of days, Turkish authorities get angry and start getting involved continuing a previously started criticism against Israelis. Erdogan goes all the way promising retribution and announcing that future flotilla will be escorted by naval ships.

So let me get this straight: Israel and Turkey practically got on a collision course due to a third party ship (as per what some reports say)? I don't get it how either of the countries are to be blamed in such scenario.

Turkey was responsible for the flotilla by its own public admission and by welcoming the sail of the flotilla from a Turkish port (which I do not remember which one specifically).

Furthermore, Turkish war ships guarded the flotilla when it left the port and one of the main organiser of the flotilla was the Turkish organisation, IHH, which has close contacts to the Turkish government.

The UN report is expected to determine the deep involvement of Turkey in organising and orchestrating the flotilla which was mere provocation for the sake of international media and got nothing to do with the real situation in Gaza.

 

[somebozo]

The committee determined that Israel's naval blockade of Gaza is in keeping with international law, and therefore its actions to stop the flotilla were also legal

International law according to who?? law of zionists?? Animals don't make laws..
I wonder why the Muslim countries dont concentrate on building their OIC and withdraw from the clown called UN all together.

Israel as a wholesome illicit state has no right to moan and groan even if the flotilla was loaded with nukes..frankly speaking..that is the only solution to this cancer..nuclear chemotherapy!

The Jews did not come from Britain and were not part of their Colonialism. I emphasised that the land was deserted in order to illustrate that the Jews did not throw out the Arabs when establishing their towns and villages.

Technically speaking, most of the Arabs in Trand-Jordan and Mediterranean are ethnic Semitics which makes then the true inhabitants of the region. They later accept Islam and became Muslims has nothing to do with their genealogy and they remain ethnic Semitics. A lot of Jewish tribes from Arabian peninsula Arabised over time and lost their Jewish customs. Quraiysh of Makkah and its Banu Hashim clan where Prophet Muhammed originated from are Arabised branches of Jewish tribes. Complications arise when the people claiming their rightful homeland in a form of Israel came from all over the Europe as settlers and claimed statehood through armed means equivalent of terrorism and are ethnically Europeans, not Semitics which were the real Jews and true inhabitants of Israel.

So yes you Israelites are a legacy of European colonialism exported by the British as a part of final solution because they were too sick of you wolves constantly taking Europe to war with each other.

The Jews returned to their historic homeland while they already had a constant presence in this country for centuries -

Good so now lot of people want to go back to the history lands of their own..including canan and Greeks..both of whom ruled the Mediterranean long before Moses claimed prophecy!

 

[nirreich]

International law according to who?? law of zionists?? Animals don't make laws..
I wonder why the Muslim countries dont concentrate on building their OIC and withdraw from the clown called UN all together.

Israel as a wholesome illicit state has no right to moan and groan even if the flotilla was loaded with nukes..frankly speaking..that is the only solution to this cancer..nuclear chemotherapy!

Good so now lot of people want to go back to the history lands of their own..including canan and Greeks..both of whom ruled the Mediterranean long before Moses claimed prophecy!

I deeply apologise for my existence and for the independence of my country which clearly is driving mad every crack-pot out there.

 

[JayAtl]

I deeply apologise for my existence and for the independence of my country which clearly is driving mad every crack-pot out there.

I found it ironic that Pakistan history shared the fact they too were given land over original owners protest, but their history shows they fought against the Palestine's too...( Pakistani poster Faujhistorian showed such proof and has mentioned it many times)

 

[Mosamania]

Please there is no use arguing with those people. the only language they understand is the language of a smoking bullet hole through their brains no matter how many times we tried to talk to them they just want war.

And about non-muslims not allowed in Makkah or Medinah that is not our law and not our country's law either. this is a law from God and we only do what God told us to do regarding this matter and have no control over it and I think my Pakistani brothers here agree with me on that point.

I am not anti-semmetic since my direct lineage goes to Abraham from Ishmael but I am anti-zionist with my heart, body and soul. and if it is true the jewish homeland than I DEMAND that I get my right because my ancestor was kicked from palastine by Sarah but know my home now is Saudi Arabia just like how the jews home should be whatever country they went to before they started flocking into palastine.

 

[Solomon2]

Please there is no use arguing with those people. the only language they understand is the language of a smoking bullet hole through their brains no matter how many times we tried to talk to them they just want war.

Read that over. And over. Did nirreich threaten to shoot you for talking? No. You, however, implicitly threatened to shoot him simply because your arguments aren't convincing. Did you know that crusaders used to argue with Jews the same way?

if it is true the jewish homeland than I DEMAND that I get my right because my ancestor was kicked from palastine by Sarah but know my home now is Saudi Arabia -

And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne unto Abraham, mocking. Therefore she said unto Abraham, "Cast out this bondwoman and her son; for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac. And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. And God said unto Abraham, "Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman. In all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed." link

Two sons, different inheritances, two nations. They don't need to be eternally opposing ones; that's politics. There are thing the Sauds and other Arab dictators don't want other Arabs to think about, and Israel-hatred is the necessary distraction.

 

[somebozo]

I am not anti-semmetic since my direct lineage goes to Abraham from Ishmael but I am anti-zionist with my heart, body and soul. and if it is true the jewish homeland than I DEMAND that I get my right because my ancestor was kicked from palastine by Sarah but know my home now is Saudi Arabia just like how the jews home should be whatever country they went to before they started flocking into palastine.

Read that over. And over. Did nirreich threaten to shoot you for talking? No. You, however, implicitly threatened to shoot him simply because your arguments aren't convincing. Did you know that crusaders used to argue with Jews the same way?

And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne unto Abraham, mocking. Therefore she said unto Abraham, "Cast out this bondwoman and her son; for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac. And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. And God said unto Abraham, "Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman. In all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed." link

Two sons, different inheritances, two nations. They don't need to be eternally opposing ones; that's politics. There are thing the Sauds and other Arab dictators don't want other Arabs to think about, and Israel-hatred is the necessary distraction.

I come from Bani Ishaq and have an authentic proof of genealogy. I should be the first to get every rights in Israel and I am sure there are thousands others like me. I already have extensive family and clan members spread around Europe.

This political propaganda of historical homeland doesn't work too well in the light of scientific logic. The fact that Israel is an experiment of continued European colonialism and nothing else. Technically speaking it would be illegal for "secular" European countries to support a birth of a nation on religious grounds. So its nothing to do with religion and history just pure shrewd politics.

Two sons, different inheritances, two nations. They don't need to be eternally opposing ones; that's politics. There are thing the Sauds and other Arab dictators don't want other Arabs to think about, and Israel-hatred is the necessary distraction.

And of you are such a strong believer of bible then you obviously missed the line

Abraham initially refused to do as Sarah asked.[1] He finally gave in to his wife's request when God told him that it was through Isaac that Abraham's offspring would "be reckoned", and that He would "make Ishmael into a nation" too, since he was a descendant of Abraham. (Genesis 21:11-13)