A year for the First Flotilla to Gaza: Turkey was found Guilty by UN

[Mosamania]

You avoided any answer to my previous questions which undermined your negative perception about Israel. It seems that you cannot handle reality.

My previous post:

So their decision to destroy Israel in 1947 and to reject the partition plan (which caused the refugee problem) was the right one? And Hamas using suicide bombers against innocent women and children is also the right decision? And its refusal to recognise Israel? And its commitment to destroy it is a reasonable policy?

The Palestinians can vote to whom they like, but they should take responsibility for their choice. If they elect Hamas which has a Nazi charter as ideology and is not ready to recognise Israel or the live with it in peace, then they should not be surprise if Israel refuse to negotiate with a terror organisation which attack its innocent civilians and should know that Israel will constantly operate against this kind of barbaric organisation.

As you correctly explained Hamas was elected by the people of Gaza, so they should bear the consequences of their vote. Israel is under no obligation to cooperate with a terror organisation which aspire to destroy it, so Israel can close its border, like any other sovereign country, and prevent any entrance of people and commodities from Gaza to its territory. It can impose a maritime blockade in order to prevent Hamas from getting more rockets and weaponry from Iran and Syria which would be use to attack innocent civilians in Israel. If the population in Gaza suffers from this measures, it should know it is the consequence of its own democratic choice and it has the option to change its mind.

Right now Israel is only obliged to the minimum: to allow humanitarian aid for Gaza and basic services. No more, no less. And needless to say, Israel should continue to fight Hamas while making efforts to prevent casualties among civilians in Gaza as much as possible. A baby or a child should not be blamed for this situation. However, if Hamas uses its own civilians as human shields in order to attack Israeli civilians (like when firing rockets on Israel) and to intentionally increase the number of civilian casualties in order to draw international criticism on Israel it should know that Israel prime duty is to protect its own civilians.

How can you sympathise with this kind of degraded terror organisation? Support the PA in its efforts to rebuild the Palestinian society and its institution without using violence against Israel.

Nothing would make me more happy than seeing a palastenian state in the UN by September with the west bank and gaza connected and see them build their society back.
And to answer your questions "sorry I forget when i write sometimes besides I am on many fronts" yes the killing of any civilians is a mistake no matter who and what. civilians are not warriors and should not pay the price of the warriors. and this goes double for Israel does not matter if it the killing was made by a carefully guided missile from an apache or from someone who strapped himself and became a walking bomb.

And you further the belief that collective punishment is infact going on in Israel. and that it did not change from the days of moshe dayan's atrocities till today.

 

[nirreich]

Nothing would make me more happy than seeing a palastenian state in the UN by September with the west bank and gaza connected and see them build their society back.
And to answer your questions "sorry I forget when i write sometimes besides I am on many fronts" yes the killing of any civilians is a mistake no matter who and what. civilians are not warriors and should not pay the price of the warriors. and this goes double for Israel does not matter if it the killing was made by a carefully guided missile from an apache or from someone who strapped himself and became a walking bomb.

And you further the belief that collective punishment is infact going on in Israel. and that it did not change from the days of moshe dayan's atrocities till today.

What about Hamas policy to destroy Israel and its Nazi charter? Is it legitimate in your perspective? What about the Palestinian responsibility for the refugee problem?

Israel exercising "collective punishment" the same way KSA used "collective punishment" against Saddam's regime in Iraq and supported the international sanction regime against Iraq between 1990 and 2003. Iraq under Saddam was an hostile entity not just for KSA but for all Iraq's neighbours, so it was they right to protect themselves, just like Israel defend itself from the terror regime in Gaza.

Can't you see the difference between an intentional killing of civilians by Hamas terrorists and suicide bombers and unfortunate casualties among civilians as a result of operations against terrorists? Palestinians civilians are indeed being hurt, but that is mainly the outcome of Hamas coward behaviour to fight its war against Israel by using women and children as human shield. In fact, unlike Israel, Hamas wants that as many as civilians would be hurt in order to increase international criticism against Israel. Few cases of unjustifiable jeopardising civilian lives by IDF soldiers were dealt in Israel's judicial system, and unlike in the Palestinian side overwhelming majority of Israelis are condemning this kind of criminal behaviour.

If a terrorist launch rockets against Israeli civilians from a populated Palestinian area Israel has no right to defend itself and should surrender to terrorism? Is that what you are saying?

I share your perspective that nothing would be more happier that a viable and prosperous Palestinian state living side by side with Israel in peace which includes Gaza too. However, the Palestinian radical demands for Israel to agree to absorb millions of Palestinians and commits suicide is a constant obstacle for any vision of ending the conflict.

BTW, on what atrocities are you talking about? Dayan believed in an economic development of the West Bank and Gaza and adopted a policy in that direction. As a result the welfare of the Palestinians in these territories was much better than under Jordan and Egypt until 1967.

 

[Mosamania]

What about Hamas policy to destroy Israel and its Nazi charter? Is it legitimate in your perspective? What about the Palestinian responsibility for the refugee problem?

Israel exercising "collective punishment" the same way KSA used "collective punishment" against Saddam's regime in Iraq and supported the international sanction regime against Iraq between 1990 and 2003. Iraq under Saddam was an hostile entity not just for KSA but for all Iraq's neighbours, so it was they right to protect themselves, just like Israel defend itself from the terror regime in Gaza.

Can't you see the difference between an intentional killing of civilians by Hamas terrorists and suicide bombers and unfortunate casualties among civilians as a result of operations against terrorists? Palestinians civilians are indeed being hurt, but that is mainly the outcome of Hamas coward behaviour to fight its war against Israel by using women and children as human shield. In fact, unlike Israel, Hamas wants that as many as civilians would be hurt in order to increase international criticism against Israel. Few cases of unjustifiable jeopardising civilian lives by IDF soldiers were dealt in Israel's judicial system, and unlike in the Palestinian side overwhelming majority of Israelis are condemning this kind of criminal behaviour.

If a terrorist launch rockets against Israeli civilians from a populated Palestinian area Israel has no right to defend itself and should surrender to terrorism? Is that what you are saying?

I share your perspective that nothing would be more happier that a viable and prosperous Palestinian state living side by side with Israel in peace which includes Gaza too. However, the Palestinian radical demands for Israel to agree to absorb millions of Palestinians and commits suicide is a constant obstacle for any vision of ending the conflict.

BTW, on what atrocities are you talking about? Dayan believed in an economic development of the West Bank and Gaza and adopted a policy in that direction. As a result the welfare of the Palestinians in these territories was much better than under Jordan and Egypt until 1967.

If you read Ehud Dayan's book you would understand what I meant.

 

[nirreich]

If you read Ehud Dayan's book you would understand what I meant.

This is all you have to say? Who is Ehud Dayan?

A very comprehensive answer.

 

[Mosamania]

This is all you have to say? Who is Ehud Dayan?

A very comprehensive answer.

I see Hamas as fighting a legitimate fight against an aggressor (Israel) who took their land by force. And this aggressor have shown no signs of slowing down its ethnic cleansing and murder. This Aggressor who made their lives hell. This aggressor who keeps them locked up in their own homes. This aggressor who if you ask any Palastenian have lost a loved one to.

Fatah is also fighting but Fatah is fighting more wisely. and more cunningly. I wouldn't be surprised if one day the New Palastine will compete with Israel in the technology department, because such is the determination of people who had injustice befallen against them.

And before you accuse me of supporting the killing of women and children I am not. As I have made it clear by my previous post.

 

[nirreich]

So you agree with Hamas charter? Its Nazi character?

How Hamas fighting is legitimate when it mainly aims against women and children? You attack Israel on its allegedly war against civilians but praise Hamas for the same behaviour?

Let me remind you that Israel withdrew completely from Gaza, there is not any Israeli presence in Gaza. Israel did the very difficult step in 2005 and evacuated thousands of its civilians and its security forces from Gaza. So This step means nothing? What will satisfy you and Hamas? Only the complete destruction of Israel?

Israel withdrew to the 1967 border in Gaza and yet it is being terrorised by Hamas. What you call "locking them in their homes", Like any other sovereign country, Israel has full authority on its border and can choose to close it whenever it likes. You seriously want to force Israel to have open borders with a terror regime that is publicly committed to its destruction and it is attacking it constantly? Is this a joke? Show me one example in history of this kind of behaviour of surrender by a nation. In addition Gaza also has a border with Egypt, so I do not see what is the problem.

You are using strong words like "ethnic cleansing" so you need to prove them: bring an example of mass deportation of ten of thousands of Palestinians by Israel in the West Bank or Gaza. contrary to your accusation the population of the PA increased rapidly since 1967.

A national struggle is legitimate and the one of the Palestinians for self determination is also legitimate, but the question is what its final objective. Currently it is not about having an independent country next to Israel (which Israel already accepted) but an establishment of a Palestinian state that will replace and eliminate Israel. This is an arrogant and rude goal and I can assure you that no one in Israel is ready to surrender to such a degraded ambition which is supported by terror means.

As I said a prosperous Palestinian state is an Israeli interest. However it would take the Palestinian a very long time until they would reach an equivalent position to Israel in science and technology. They should start in reconstructing their education system first and then wait a generation or two for the outcome.

BTW, I see you abandoned this nonsense on Dayan, better luck next time.

 

[Mosamania]

So you agree with Hamas charter? Its Nazi character?

How Hamas fighting is legitimate when it mainly aims against women and children? You attack Israel on its allegedly war against civilians but praise Hamas for the same behaviour?

Let me remind you that Israel withdrew completely from Gaza, there is not any Israeli presence in Gaza. Israel did the very difficult step in 2005 and evacuated thousands of its civilians and its security forces from Gaza. So This step means nothing? What will satisfy you and Hamas? Only the complete destruction of Israel?

Israel withdrew to the 1967 border in Gaza and yet it is being terrorised by Hamas. What you call "locking them in their homes", Like any other sovereign country, Israel has full authority on its border and can choose to close it whenever it likes. You seriously want to force Israel to have open borders with a terror regime that is publicly committed to its destruction and it is attacking it constantly? Is this a joke? Show me one example in history of this kind of behaviour of surrender by a nation. In addition Gaza also has a border with Egypt, so I do not see what is the problem.

You are using strong words like "ethnic cleansing" so you need to prove them: bring an example of mass deportation of ten of thousands of Palestinians by Israel in the West Bank or Gaza. contrary to your accusation the population of the PA increased rapidly since 1967.

A national struggle is legitimate and the one of the Palestinians for self determination is also legitimate, but the question is what its final objective. Currently it is not about having an independent country next to Israel (which Israel already accepted) but an establishment of a Palestinian state that will replace and eliminate Israel. This is an arrogant and rude goal and I can assure you that no one in Israel is ready to surrender to such a degraded ambition which is supported by terror means.

As I said a prosperous Palestinian state is an Israeli interest. However it would take the Palestinian a very long time until they would reach an equivalent position to Israel in science and technology. They should start in reconstructing their education system first and then wait a generation or two for the outcome.

BTW, I see you abandoned this nonsense on Dayan, better luck next time.

I believe and will always believe that Israel should not exist. And it was the right decision to not let such a cancer spread by containing it now.
And This is the fourth time I tell you I do not agree with Killing of women and children regardless. The only people that Hamas should try killing and focus its effort on is the Israeli soldiers and that is it.

Israel would kill every single Palastenian if it had the chance and both me and you know this. But out of fear of being alienated it is trying in other forms such as deportation and such to reduce the number as much as possible but failing in that too.

And Ehud Dayan is Moshe Dayan's son he wrote a book on his father describing how his father committed massacres and atrocities against Arabs and because he did he was cut out of the family will.

You say the withdrawal from Gaza as a (+1) I see it as (+(-1)).

 

[nirreich]

I believe and will always believe that Israel should not exist. And it was the right decision to not let such a cancer spread by containing it now.
And This is the fourth time I tell you I do not agree with Killing of women and children regardless. The only people that Hamas should try killing and focus its effort on is the Israeli soldiers and that is it.

Israel would kill every single Palastenian if it had the chance and both me and you know this. But out of fear of being alienated it is trying in other forms such as deportation and such to reduce the number as much as possible but failing in that too.

And Ehud Dayan is Moshe Dayan's son he wrote a book on his father describing how his father committed massacres and atrocities against Arabs and because he did he was cut out of the family will.

You say the withdrawal from Gaza as a (+1) I see it as (+(-1)).

So the Palestinian has a right for their own country, but not the Jews? In their historic homeland? Why you and your people are entitled to have 23 independent countries and the Jewish people do not have the right to have a state of their own? And you dehumanise it by calling it cancer. And yet, you are very sensitive for political rights unless they are for Jews.

If you against killing civilians, so why you glorify Hamas which does exactly that? Why you do not condemn its terror attacks against Israel and why you want to deprive Israel from defending itself from this terrorism?

As I emphasised several times not just Israel has no policy to "kill every Palestinian" but Israel is in favour of an independent, stable and prosperous Palestinian state. How many times should I repeat it? Show me a single evidence to any such policy of killing Palestinians. Contrary to Hamas and to the aspiration of many Arabs, Muslims, and Palestinians to eliminate Israel and kill its people, Israelis has no objective of eliminating the Palestinians: it agreed to their independence already in 1947, it offered them self governance in the late 1970's, it created the PA in 1993, it offered them an independent state on more than 90% of the West Bank and Gaza in 2000 and in 2009, it withdraw completely from Gaza in 2005. How all these steps settle with a policy of "killing all Palestinians"? What more is needed to convince you that you are wrong?

Unfortunately, you and almost all Palestinians perceive Israel's goodwill, compromises and gestures as weakness that strengthen your side and you are not ready to any deviation from the objective of eliminating Israel. If for holding this goal, lying about fake Israeli policies of "killing all Palestinian" and "ethnic cleansing" is necessary than so be it - the objective is more important than the means.

About Dayan, I do not know what you are talking about and I could not find any mentioning of any such book.

 

[Mosamania]

So the Palestinian has a right for their own country, but not the Jews? In their historic homeland? Why you and your people are entitled to have 23 independent countries and the Jewish people do not have the right to have a state of their own? And you dehumanise it by calling it cancer. And yet, you are very sensitive for political rights unless they are for Jews.

If you against killing civilians, so why you glorify Hamas which does exactly that? Why you do not condemn its terror attacks against Israel and why you want to deprive Israel from defending itself from this terrorism?

As I emphasised several times not just Israel has no policy to "kill every Palestinian" but Israel is in favour of an independent, stable and prosperous Palestinian state. How many times should I repeat it? Show me a single evidence to any such policy of killing Palestinians. Contrary to Hamas and to the aspiration of many Arabs, Muslims, and Palestinians to eliminate Israel and kill its people, Israelis has no objective of eliminating the Palestinians: it agreed to their independence already in 1947, it offered them self governance in the late 1970's, it created the PA in 1993, it offered them an independent state on more than 90% of the West Bank and Gaza in 2000 and in 2009, it withdraw completely from Gaza in 2005. How all these steps settle with a policy of "killing all Palestinians"?

Unfortunately, you and almost all Palestinians perceive Israel's goodwill, compromises and gestures as weakness that strengthen your side and you are not ready to any deviation from the objective of eliminating Israel. If for holding this goal, lying about fake Israeli policies of "killing all Palestinian" and "ethnic cleansing" is necessary than so be it - the objective is more important than the means.

About Dayan, I do not know what you are talking about and I could not find any mentioning of any such book.

I do not have a problem with a race nor a religion. Judaism is one of the religions I like in the world because of its similarity to Islam in many forms. Jews have been praised in the Qur'an more than condemned but what I have a problem with are Zionists regardless of race or religion.

I do not see it as a weakness but I still do not trust Israel for it showed in numerous times that the moment you do trust it you get screwed over very fast.
I understand where Hamas is coming from and Hamas is an Israeli creation of people who are fed up with it and had enough of injustice and want to fight back I however as I stated four times and now for the fifth time do not support the killings of civilians regardless or race or religion.

The Zionist entity is a cancer that is weakening us and dividing us for if it wasn't for Israel you wont be seeing people like Mubarak and Assad who are hopefully will be going soon.

About Dayan...Look harder I found it on the internet it is called "Life as a side show"

 

[nirreich]

I do not have a problem with a race nor a religion. Judaism is one of the religions I like in the world because of its similarity to Islam in many forms. Jews have been praised in the Qur'an more than condemned but what I have a problem with are Zionists regardless of race or religion.

I do not see it as a weakness but I still do not trust Israel for it showed in numerous times that the moment you do trust it you get screwed over very fast.
I understand where Hamas is coming from and Hamas is an Israeli creation of people who are fed up with it and had enough of injustice and want to fight back I however as I stated four times and now for the fifth time do not support the killings of civilians regardless or race or religion.

The Zionist entity is a cancer that is weakening us and dividing us for if it wasn't for Israel you wont be seeing people like Mubarak and Assad who are hopefully will be going soon.

About Dayan...Look harder I found it on the internet it is called "Life as a side show"

And for the fifth time, on one hand you against terrorising women and children and one the other hand you support Hamas which its main tool against Israel is mass killing of Israeli civilians. and you are avoiding any explanation for this anomaly. "Justice" according to Hamas is the destruction of Israel and you complain that Israel is not ready to provide it with this "Justice"! Would you ever dare to suggest any other country to destroy itself only to satisfy a pretend "justice" of its worst enemies?

As I mentioned before, the Palestinians do not deserve their "justice" and they received exactly what they deserved. They tried to destroy Israel in 1947-1948, rejected any compromise and as a result lost the opportunity for more than 60 years for their own state, broke their own society and created the refugee problem which included millions of Palestinians. For your information, Jew deserve justice too, and according to this standard of Justice, the Arabs and the Palestinians will never be able to satisfy the justice aspiration of the Jewish people.

Give me an example when Israel promised something and then did the opposite. In parallel, you do not seem to have a problem with Palestinians doing exactly that, as you admitted yourself: cunningly the PA pretend to accept Israel, and agreed to sit and talk with Israel only to get more consents that would eventually weaken it to a degree that would make it easy to eliminate.

If you have a problem with Zionism, then you have a problem with the Jewish people having their own state because that is what Zionism all about. So you have a double standard view that all nations can have independent state except the Jews.

About this book, I do not know what is there, but the fact it was written after Dayan's death speaks for itself - that way he cannot answer the allegations. Furthermore, it is a long forgotten book that did not make any impact and I would not rely on it for anything.

 

[Mosamania]

And for the fifth time, one one hand you against terrorising women and children and one the other hand you support Hamas which its main tool against Israel is mass killing Israeli civilians. and you are avoiding any explanation for this anomaly. "Justice" according to Hamas is the destruction of Israel and you complain that Israel is not ready to provide it with this "Justice"! Would you ever dare to suggest any other country to destroy itself only to satisfy a pretend "justice" of its worst enemies?

As I mentioned before, the Palestinians do not deserve their "justice" and they received exactly what they deserved. They tried to destroy Israel in 1947-1948, rejected any compromise and as a result lost the opportunity for more than 60 years for their own state, broke their own society and created the refugee problem which included millions of Palestinians. For your information, Jew deserve justice too, and according to this standard of Justice, the Arabs and the Palestinians will never be able to satisfy the justice aspiration of the Jewish people.

Give me an example when Israel promised something and then did the opposite. In parallel, you do not seem to have a problem with Palestinians doing exactly that, as you admitted yourself: cunningly the PA pretend to accept Israel, and agreed to sit and talk with Israel only to get more consents that would eventually weaken it to a degree that it would be easy to eliminate it.

If you have a problem with Zionism, then you have a problem with the Jewish people having their own state because that is what Zionism all about. So you have a double standard view that all nations can have independent state except if they are Jews.

About this book, I do not know what is there, but the fact it was written after Dayan's death speaks for itself - that way he cannot answer the allegations. Furthermore, it is a long forgotten book that did not make any impact and I would not rely on it for anything.

I support's Hamas's fight against Israeli occupation. But I do not support the way it is conducted including some parts of its charter.
You know when the Abbas got together with "I forgot who at the time" to get 10,000 refugee back home and then when the refugees started coming back they started arresting them. (Can't give a link right now I am too sleepy and haven't slept in more than 24 hours and not in mood to look)

I have a problem with people using the bible as a land deed and God as lawyer for a land just to speed up Armageddon by extremists fooling the masses.

 

[nirreich]

I support's Hamas's fight against Israeli occupation. But I do not support the way it is conducted including some parts of its charter.
You know when the Abbas got together with "I forgot who at the time" to get 10,000 refugee back home and then when the refugees started coming back they started arresting them. (Can't give a link right now I am too sleepy and haven't slept in more than 24 hours and not in mood to look)

I have a problem with people using the bible as a land deed and God as lawyer for a land just to speed up Armageddon by extremists fooling the masses.

Say the truth: you support Hamas's fight for the elimination of Israel and not against "occupation". If that was the case, you should have be more than satisfied with Israel's consent with an independent Palestinian state on most of the West Bank and Gaza.

I never heard anything about any permission for Palestinians to settle in Israel. Abbas discussed the issue with PM Olmert, but refused to drop the demand of "right of return" or even to answer to Olmert's specific proposals to end the conflict by creating a Palestinian state on most of the West Bank.

The Jewish connection to this land is far stronger than just the bible. For 20 centuries (!) Jews prayed every day to return back to Israel and there were always Jews living in this land (and consist a majority in Jerusalem even before Zionism). The only place on earth where Jews had their own country was in the holly land, so naturally this is the only place where Israel could be established. And when Zionism began to construct it, there were less than half a million people in this land (including indigenous Jews) who did not even called themselves Palestinians.

so sorry to disappoint you but Zionism is far from Armageddon or whatever.

 

[Mosamania]

Say the truth: you support Hamas's fight for the elimination of Israel and not against "occupation". If that was the case, you should have be more than satisfied with Israel's consent with an independent Palestinian state on most of the West Bank and Gaza.

I never heard anything about any permission for Palestinians to settle in Israel. Abbas discussed the issue with PM Olmert, but refused to drop the demand of "right of return" or even to answer to Olmert's specific proposals to end the conflict by creating a Palestinian state on most of the West Bank.

The Jewish connection to this land is far stronger than just the bible. For 20 centuries (!) Jews prayed every day to return back to Israel and there were always Jews living in this land (and consist a majority in Jerusalem even before Zionism). The only place on earth where Jews had their own country was in the holly land, so naturally this is the only place where Israel could be established. And when Zionism began to construct it, there were less than half a million people in this land (including indigenous Jews) who did not even called themselves Palestinians.

so sorry to disappoint you but Zionism is far from Armageddon or whatever.

Right now I am on the Palastenians side to rebel the occupation of their land because Israel is showing no sign of allowing a Palastenian state "Netnyahu was very clear on that" until the say the Israeli's accept Palastine and all its arab neighbors you guys will remain the bad guys.

I read it somewhere last year I think about some discussions in the 2000s I do not remember when exactly either. And now we pray everyday that you go back to your houses in europe in Russia the jews that used to live in palastine and their kids can stay (as i said according to now since you are not showing any signs of accepting peace) and no jews did not consist a majority in historical Palastine even if by a far chance they did consist a majority in Jerusalem they did not in Palastine not until they started flooding palastine from their home countries did they ever consist a majority in Historical Palastine.

 

[nirreich]

Right now I am on the Palastenians side to rebel the occupation of their land because Israel is showing no sign of allowing a Palastenian state "Netnyahu was very clear on that" until the say the Israeli's accept Palastine and all its arab neighbors you guys will remain the bad guys.

I read it somewhere last year I think about some discussions in the 2000s I do not remember when exactly either. And now we pray everyday that you go back to your houses in europe in Russia the jews that used to live in palastine and their kids can stay (as i said according to now since you are not showing any signs of accepting peace) and no jews did not consist a majority in historical Palastine even if by a far chance they did consist a majority in Jerusalem they did not in Palastine not until they started flooding palastine from their home countries did they ever consist a majority in Historical Palastine.

You are indeed on the Palestinian side but not against "occupation" but against the existence of Israel. As I already mentioned, Israel is ready to accept an independent Palestinian state (Netanyahu himself declared it!). Regarding its Arab neighbours Israel withdrew from Sinai for a peace agreement with Egypt, its signed another peace agreement with Jordan and offered to withdraw from the Golan hight in an exchange for a peace agreement with Syria. What more proofs do you need?

Israel is the Jewish state and there is no way we will return back to live as minority that would be dependent on the grace of foreign nations. We all know how it badly worked during history. The only place on earth where Jews can exercise their self determination like any other nation is in their historic homeland (where they maintained a community for centuries) in their own independent state.