A three tier attack capability?

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Guys one thing I noticed.

I checked wikipedia (yeah I know it's not really reliable but) I couldn't see a proper list of PAA equipment.

So two questions for local experts.

1- Which platforms are in FOC, in which quantity and specif variants?

2- inventory of missiles suitable for assymetric warfare?

@fatman17 @Irfan Baloch @Horus @araz others..

By platform do you mean gunships or all helis ? We currently operate around 55+ cobra and 1 or 2 sqds of fennecs...
Missiles .. TOW series,Baktar Shikans,Milan,Burrq ... Apart from the new contract for 1000 Hellfire block IIs along with 15 Vipers... And possibly new missiles for the MI-35s...

For tank launched missiles; Modified Kombat ATGM & AT11 Sniper.

Cobra ATGM was either assembled or produced back in late 70s but I don't think they are in use anymore...

 

[fatman17]

A-10s were offered to Pak in the past...

These are great jets but not in production anymore... Most of them retired and some upgraded by US for their Marines... These would be good for stopgap but useless in the long run...


...


For COIN operations.... Our CN 235s can be turned into light gunships like the Jordanians CN's;
View attachment 250240 View attachment 250241 View attachment 250242 View attachment 250243 View attachment 250244

Pak Navy operates 4 CN's;


View attachment 250245

U mean PAF

 

[fatman17]

Guys one thing I noticed.

I checked wikipedia (yeah I know it's not really reliable but) I couldn't see a proper list of PAA equipment.

So two questions for local experts.

1- Which platforms are in FOC, in which quantity and specif variants?

2- inventory of AGMs suitable for assymetric warfare?

@fatman17 @Irfan Baloch @Horus @araz others..

Check page 1 of PAA thread for information

 

[VelocuR]

Pakistan should eliminate these words - "no money, no funds and limit budgets" It make us feeling like stupid.

Let's fix to maximum budgets in our economy, can't we?

Solve it ASAP!!!!!

 

[TaimiKhan]

We don't need AC-130 and best possible for this role is this baby

Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt

This is cheaper, reliable and bang on target

We don't need tank busters. We need something which can fly for a considerable time period on the target location. AC-130 can observe from long ranges and then attack and can keep attacking till the enemy is finished. A-10s will first are to be told where the targets are, guide them and them they make few runs and have to go back. AC-130s can fly for 6-8 hrs, search for enemies and finish them off with ease.

Lets imagine, an enemy intercept about an attack is in our hand, we know the general location of the area where the enemy is gonna strike a checkpost, you scramble an AC-130, its flying in the targeted area, an attack starts on a checkpost and the AC-130 is notified and its on the targeted area in 10-15 minutes, just imagine the devastation it will cause to the enemy.

Your troops are to advance during night, an AC-130 is buzzing over them for hrs keeping an eye for any enemy suspected ambush, just imagine how safe your troops will feel fighting in the night knowing someone is above them keeping an eye on them.

Same C-130s with FLIR system were used successfully during the SWA Operations, when troops would move during night under the eyes of these FLIR equipped C-130s, now u give them fire power and see what devastation they bring.

 

[vsdoc]

Hi Taimi!

How are you doing bro?

 

[Peace seeker]

seems Pakistan has the strategy to make air defense powerful...........

 

[jhungary]

If what you are talking about is for COIN, then 3 tier is a bit complicated and not necessary.

In COIN, air support depends on Communication and Rapid Deployment. Either you use UAV or Ground troop to spot your target, move in, strike and move out. All those element is about speed and precision, not about fire power or how many support you have on hand.

Different country have a different way to deal with COIN, in the US, we have an established UAV system that can make things a lot easier, where we pick up the target on remote control surveillance and then call in strike for Pakistan, things could be a bit more complicated as Ground element will be involved.

One thing about including ground element is that, now you also have to look at how you can deploy your ground troop quickly without the insurgent noticing. While the logical solution must be in a form of Helicopter Aerial assault, but the MANPAD or other portable missile system will post a threat to the chopper insertion themselves, so you can either insert your troop using stealth or you can clear off any air threat as you move along.

Now that mean you only need 2 type of Chopper

One that can carry your group surveillance troop and one that can provide close support.

In conclusion, if PA is going to induce all 3 type, then any of the 2 (One must be Mi-35) are needed for COIN. Either Z-10/Mi-35 for light scouting or AH-1Z/Mi-35 for deep reconnaissance

1- Air Assault
2- Supporting Ground Operations
3- QRF*
4- CAS
5- Reconnaissance
6- Utility Support/Group Escort

Missed one, there should be 7

7-CASEVAC/MEDIVAC

 

[Neptune]

Missed one, there should be 7

7-CASEVAC/MEDIVAC

Uups my bad. Let's just hope I aint see it the other way around if dustedoff .

BTW, is it just US(?), Turkey procedure or NATO when utility choppers fly on high combat zone, they don't takeoff without gunship support.

 

[jhungary]

Uups my bad. Let's just hope I aint see it the other way around if dustedoff .

BTW, is it just US(?), Turkey procedure or NATO when utility choppers fly on high combat zone, they don't takeoff without gunship support.

I have been dustoff'd from a battle....Can tell you nothing can replace those dustoff chopper otherwise I would not have been able to talk to you today

lol, we have a multi-dimensioned ground support, and being the only country in this world can launch a stealth chopper insertion (Ala OBL Strike) most covert ops were launch without CAS or Gunship supports

But you are right, NATO Guideline interdict that most Utility Chopper does not lift off without Gunship, in some case, a ground exfil plan also required before air assault troop are launched.

 

[Neptune]

I have been dustoff'd from a battle....Can tell you nothing can replace those dustoff chopper otherwise I would not have been able to talk to you today

lol, we have a multi-dimensioned ground support, and being the only country in this world can launch a stealth chopper insertion (Ala OBL Strike) most covert ops were launch without CAS or Gunship supports

But you are right, NATO Guideline interdict that most Utility Chopper does not lift off without Gunship, in some case, a ground exfil plan also required before air assault troop are launched.

God of War has blessed you then. I see that's why there's a proverb "don't mess with merica!" .

AFIK, that type of ground exfils are at environments where simply the vechiles are mobile enough to make it oscar mike over there or if the deck is red..etc. But another prep question would be also a little related with the topic, do you get to determine the type of firepower support. Let's say its aerial QRF or artillery if you're SOC light infantry?
P.S Of course there's a vast gap between US Army and others in terms of support availability and s4.

 

[jhungary]

God of War has blessed you then. I see that's why there's a proverb "don't mess with merica!" .

AFIK, that type of ground exfils are at environments where simply the vechiles are mobile enough to make it oscar mike over there or if the deck is red..etc. But another prep question would be also a little related with the topic, do you get to determine the type of firepower support. Let's say its aerial QRF or artillery if you're SOC light infantry?
P.S Of course there's a vast gap between US Army and others in terms of support availability and s4.

Well, I think NATO require at least a Armoured Brigade on hand before making Air Assault Ops.

But usually QRF were deployed in support with any type of Special Operation, in case anything went south, but troop that make up that QRF could be different from time to time, it could be rangers, it could be special forces or it could be normal grunt.

But in all, you don't get t pick whatever support you want, you can use them or have priority using them only if they were on station.

Meh, the only SOC unit I deployed is the Special Reconnaissance Detachment, which formerly known as pathfinder. Wasn't any SOCOM material...

 

[arif hamza]

why don't we go for the z-19 Attack helicopter ?

 

[Quwa]

A-10s were offered to Pak in the past...

These are great jets but not in production anymore... Most of them retired and some upgraded by US for their Marines... These would be good for stopgap but useless in the long run...


...


For COIN operations.... Our CN 235s can be turned into light gunships like the Jordanians CN's;
View attachment 250240 View attachment 250241 View attachment 250242 View attachment 250243 View attachment 250244

Pak Navy operates 4 CN's;


View attachment 250245

Bear in mind it is the PA that does most of the COIN work. Yes, PAF plays a major role, but it is still quite less of a commitment compared to the PA (higher proportion of assets and people involved). Unless PA wants to buy and maintain it, I suspect any gunship acquisition would fall on PAF, and at this time the PAF does not want to make that commitment. PAF really wants to focus on external state level threats, and yes, it'll deal with COIN with existing resources, but inducting another aircraft type might be a big ask.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Bear in mind it is the PA that does most of the COIN work. Yes, PAF plays a major role, but it is still quite less of a commitment compared to the PA (higher proportion of assets and people involved). Unless PA wants to buy and maintain it, I suspect any gunship acquisition would fall on PAF, and at this time the PAF does not want to make that commitment. PAF really wants to focus on external state level threats, and yes, it'll deal with COIN with existing resources, but inducting another aircraft type might be a big ask.

Bear in mind it is the PA that does most of the COIN work. Yes, PAF plays a major role, but it is still quite less of a commitment compared to the PA (higher proportion of assets and people involved). Unless PA wants to buy and maintain it, I suspect any gunship acquisition would fall on PAF, and at this time the PAF does not want to make that commitment. PAF really wants to focus on external state level threats, and yes, it'll deal with COIN with existing resources, but inducting another aircraft type might be a big ask.

Long gone are the days when there used to be a rivalry between PA & PAF... Today PAF is working hand in hand with the army ... The cooperation can be witnessed in Joint Military exercises like Azm e Nau series & even in operations in WOT in FATA... Air strikes,recon,etc are bring done in real time .... Yes traditionally it's the army that operates gunships ... But we aren't talking about inducting a new platform ... Merely modernising or converting an already existing aircraft (in PAF inventory) ... Such a conversion wouldn't be very costly nor would any new training or infrastructure be required for it... PAF can either use it itself like it has been doing with the FLIR fitted C-130s etc .. Or hand over those planes to Pak army aviation corps ...