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A three tier attack capability?

I don't think we are going to be seeing Z-10 anytime soon.

From what i have heard from some folks and also inferred from various sources is that the Z-10 will be the long term attack helo for PAA, but in the near term the Zulu cobra provided the perfect tried and tested platform to be used in COIN ops and hence PAA preferred it for using it in the near future.

Agreed. Z-10 first will be tested thoroughly. Then recommendations for improvement would be forwarded, changes then will have to be done, then the product will be bought. It is a long term option.
 
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S 300 is a grave threat to helis...
Swarms of uav with fighters providing distant cover should be looked into
 
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Any how a large scale armour thrust is very unlikely scenario as it will inevitily result in nuclear counter strikes and complete inhilation...

What our neighbours and some of their more educated (and professional) friends would have liked to do is a reverse repeat of kargil...
A low threshold conflict preferably drawing pak air force in and than damaging some capabilities..
And than indian media shouting on top of their voice declaring victory like they have for every defeat they suffered for past 1000 years...
S 300 in my opinion ( educated but non professional) is perfect weapon for such scenario too...

What pak needs to do is to refuse to play the game on their terms and on their chosen battle ground...

Even smallest of conflicts needs to be changed quickly into open full scale war with nuclear repercussions...

Play the game on your own strength and not on enemies strength....
 
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I'm not sure about your costing, however I tend to agree on the IR-ATGM and NLOS points of yours. I think we will buy a license for HJ-12 at some point.

It must be noted that ATGMs are not an alternative to helicopters by any stretch of the imagination.
this is true, @DESERT FIGHTER alrady gave a run down of cost ov er a billion dollar allocated for this Cobra program

re rampage comment about going for Manpad alternative. this is sadly a very poor and futile alternative which cant fullfill the role of a mobile and airboune platform that an attack helicopter offer.
re your opening post I agree these 3 platform will form different layers of our anti armour role providing support to our defence formations against the Indian invading forces

S 300 is a grave threat to helis...
Swarms of uav with fighters providing distant cover should be looked into
on the contrary, this system cant bother the helicopters. it is meant for high altitude long range airborne threat mainly the fast flying jets. you jsut threw a name there in the discussion. yes it can engage the helicopter if the idiot is flying it high enough in the open planes for the missile crew to get a lock on it. but if the helicopter is using the terrain to his advantage with low level flight then it might fly just on top of the flatform without any risk
 
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So @Technogaianist how does a country like Pakistan which is neither spoiled for choice nor has money in abundance to pay for these goodies can muster up a credible defense against our conventional (India) and non conventional (Extremists) adversaries without imploding like the Soviet Union in the process ? :what:
 
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rampage comment about going for Manpad alternative. this is sadly a very poor and futile alternative which cant fullfill the role of a mobile and airboune platform that an attack helicopter offer.
Firstly, I did not suggest a shoulder fired short range ATGM, which is what you probably meant by the term manpad. Read my posts again.

Secondly, I connot be proven false just by your diagreement, which is sadly, not backed up with valid facts and proof. Please refrain from one liners.
 
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Can we please leave A-10s out and focus on the topic itself?

No.

I see. Well, for military was grouping types of attack helicopter use varies from configurations roles depending on threat environment rather than platform models.

Firstly, there are pros and cons of acquiring different platforms. Having two-three or more types of rotary-wing platforms for air assault can result with logistic nightmares depending on user's resources and A4* capabilities. I don't know the situation and availability of spares in Pakistani logistics but I can't say I'd support this idea cost wise if I had limited budget.

Tiering into groups by general military doctrines mostly depends on the use of the aircraft, roles, configuration, threat environment,...etc. So surprisingly, it actually doesn't really matter that much whether you are buying from US, China or Turkey unless there's vast technical differences and type, ex: AH-64 and AH-1W.

As it is counter insurgency we are talking about. Use of armed rotary wing against assymetric threats is roughly classified into:

1- Air Assault
2- Supporting Ground Operations
3- QRF*
4- CAS
5- Reconnaissance
6- Utility Support/Group Escort


Tiering and acquiring such aircraft is based on roles above. These missions can easily be conducted by a single type of reliable platform for Pakistan's case if armed well. You can get Chinese missiles, also last time I heard PA was getting Mızrak-U/O (UMTAS). I don't have deep insight on army aviation (hopefully will so) but grouping into tiers is a matter of configurations (both armaments and sensors) and technical requirements and the task types listed above.

AC-130 is a different story. China probably has such a program but there's also a gunship project like Spectre is under development/testing phase under the name GÖREN-2. Hope that you guys could find the best solution against the enemies of the nation.

A4: The term used to refer Air Logistics
QRF: Quick Reaction Force
 
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So @Technogaianist how does a country like Pakistan which is neither spoiled for choice nor has money in abundance to pay for these goodies can muster up a credible defense against our conventional (India) and non conventional (Extremists) adversaries without imploding like the Soviet Union in the process ? :what:

Though I am not the person to whom the question is posed, I would like to say Pakistan's current strategy is excellent.

Focus on extremists using cost -effective procurements like refurbished F16s, APCs, Gunships etc and rattle the nuclear saber in case your chief enemy shows any aggressive intent till your economy improves enough to pose credible conventional defense. Pakistan has been smart in defense procurement within the constraints it faces and the biggest proof of this is No Indian Adventurism inside Pakistan.

Soft diplomacy like having US as your ally which can exert tough pressure on India by issuing travel advisories and sanctions in case of unilateral attacks works to your advantage as well.

Regards
 
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what about retired palne like saber, f-6 even modernized fury.. just thinking for TTPs spitfire or P51 are eough but with much delay response ...
anyway can our retired planes be resued? for idk scouting, surveillance, with pods jammers or radar etc etc?
or these are past tense?
You are being sarcastic for nothing.
Are you aware that K-8 are being used in similar role in.Vamezuella against drug smugglers in Amazon forests? Neither the smugglers are short of money to have any less sophisticated weapons , nor the terrain is easy.
 
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So @Technogaianist how does a country like Pakistan which is neither spoiled for choice nor has money in abundance to pay for these goodies can muster up a credible defense against our conventional (India) and non conventional (Extremists) adversaries without imploding like the Soviet Union in the process ? :what:

By going with the "Norway Option." Like Norway, Pakistan faces a militarily superior nation with a budget several times greater in magnitude. Yours is India, ours is Russia.

Options for credible deterrence:

1. Partner with a larger force. We have NATO, the EU Battlegroup and most importantly, the US. While China's commitment to Pakistan's defense is untested in real terms, China does provide Pakistan with enough leverage to keep India off-balance via the "two front war" scenario. India can't concentrate on Pakistan alone and must divert funding and resources to maintain its military presence on its border with China and in seas/oceans now being frequented by Chinese warships.

Joint Peace Angel:
pakistan-in-china.jpg


2. Make war hurt. Taiwan is a classic example of a smaller, less sophisticated, less capable military acting as a deterrence to a larger force. Interceptor aircraft keep its skys clear, coastal artillery and missiles its sea-lanes contested and a small, but notable submarine force China's navy busy.

Similarly, Pakistan can employ the same strategy, but with "Pakistani characteristics." Under this scenario, Pakistan would leverage naval strike options - such as the JF-17 and C-400 to keep India's navy at stand-off distances, it would use its submarine force, currently being upgraded via a deal with China, to further back the IN away from Pakistani shores and shipping and its land-based missile force should be sufficient enough to strike against large, fixed targets such as political centers and military bases. Currently Pakistan needs work on ensuring its missiles can negate or break-though Indian air defenses, and its naval air and sea assets will come under an increasingly large capable counter-force, but the principle remains, it's the scale that Pakistan needs to improve.

China employs such in the form of its A2/AD:
PRC%2BA2.jpg


3. Non-traditional warfare has been a staple of Indo-Pakistani relations since the two nations split, this relationship keeps them both off-balance, diverts resources and keeps the other nation honest. Pakistan, whether it admits to it or not, can fund militant groups in India that can be used to harass, demoralize and undermine Indian military effectiveness by sabotaging infrastructure, conduct psychological operations against Indian personal - such as gas lighting, and by conducting direct actions against important Indian targets.

The concern here is a return-of-the-favor.

4. Take advantage of India's often times poor procurement policies and bureaucracy that ham-strings its military development. India is underdeveloped militarily, and it's situation, while improving, still isn't anywhere near good enough, as noted in its Rafale and artillery tenders. If Pakistan can streamline its own procurement and iron-out its procurement necessities, it can better adapt to India before India even knows what it wants.

By acting first, Pakistan can dictate the terms of the race, and force India to react to Pakistan. It's good to be in-front, a military that's playing catch-up rarely ever takes the lead.

A classic example:
rafale_coming_full_circle.jpg


5. Leverage India's regional concerns. This goes along with point one, but Pakistan needs partners, not adversaries. If Pakistan can better its relations with Bangladesh, Myanmar and other regional nations, they can pin India into a corner and keep it honest in its military dealings. Encirclement overstretches already overstretched militaries, the Soviets found this out the hard way and spent unnecessarily to keep up with ever growing threats. If India's threat profile increases in its regional neighbors, it too will have to react to negate or mitigate that threat.

That's too costly for India.

6. While military options are important, they are also expensive. Pakistan must continue with economic reform and progress. While some of the above options are fiscally doable on a smaller budget, such as funding proxies and militant groups - it's politically costly and the potential for these groups to turn on their host is a constant concern too, most of the options Pakistan can or will exercise require money... a lot of it.

Subs, frigates/destroyers, aircraft, missiles, these aren't cheap. Focus on the economy more-so then the military, but without completely neglecting the military either. Maintain a minimum credible deterrence and once the economic situation improves, shift military expenditure into high gear.

A great economic initiative:
CPEC-route-2.jpg


7. Once the economic situation improves, its time to ask yourselves, "what's next?" What's the next phase, the next plane of battle that we are likely to encounter? What system can give us an edge? Perhaps Pakistan can invest more in space? Develop your launch and satellite capabilities. Developing launch methods also helps domestic ballistic missile programs, often SLVs are derived from ICBMs or ICBMs are derived from SLVs. The development of long-range rockets, which can become missiles with the inclusion of a guidance system, can keep far-off powers honest too via MAD.

This also opens up the possibility for spy satellites, communications nodes and ASAT options which improve Pakistan's flexibility (communications satellites augmenting AWACS and ground control), allow it redundancies which make it less brittle and increase the headaches that India must account for and spend to counter.

US "Inspection Satellite" MiteX A
mitex-a__1.jpg


...

There you go. My thoughts on how Pakistan maintains a credible deterrence against a larger power without overstretching its budget.
 
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acquiring 3 types of attack helicopters does not indicate a 3 tier capability. one must understand each chopper has certain characteristics that allow it to do a task another chopper cant do. example the mil 35 can support ground troops and also deploy 8 fully kitted troops to the ground as well, something the z10 and the viper cant do. with the vipers i feel due to them being extremely advanced i cant imagine them being used for militants. they will be based up north towards the eastern borders. i love how Pakistan gets good stuff and then says it going to use them terrorists. How are they going to use 500 aim-120c against militants?;):angel:


Anyway the z10 is something that would most probably be inducted in large numbers. and i hope they use some systems from the turkish t129. the mil 35 is perfect for attacking targets and deploying troops.

to conclude each attack helicopter has its own job and are not to be used as a 3 tier capability, as each attack helicopter has its own specific job.
 
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By going with the "Norway Option." Like Norway, Pakistan faces a militarily superior military with a budget several times greater in magnitude. Yours is India, ours is Russia.

Options for credible deterrence:

1. Partner with a larger force. We have NATO, the EU Battlegroup and most importantly, the US. While China's commitment to Pakistan's defense is untested in real terms, China does provide Pakistan with enough leverage to keep India off-balance via the "two front war" scenario. India can't concentrate on Pakistan alone and must divert funding and resources to maintain its military presence on its border with China and in seas/oceans now being frequented by Chinese warships.

2. Make war hurt. Taiwan is a classic example of a smaller, less sophisticated, less capable military acting as a deterrence to a larger force. Interceptor aircraft keep its skys clear, coastal artillery and missiles its sea-lanes contested and a small, but notable submarine force China's navy busy.

Similarly, Pakistan can employ the same strategy, but with "Pakistani characteristics." Under this scenario, Pakistan would leverage naval strike options - such as the JF-17 and C-400 to keep India's navy at stand-off distances, it would use its submarine force, currently being upgraded via a deal with China, to further back the IN away from Pakistani shores and shipping and its land-based missile force should be sufficient enough to strike against large, fixed targets such as political centers and military bases. Currently Pakistan needs work on ensuring its missile can negate or break-though Indian air defenses, and its naval air and sea assets will come under an increasingly large capable counter-force, but the principle remains, it's the scale that Pakistan needs to improve.

China employs such in the form it A2/AD:
PRC%2BA2.jpg


3. Non-traditional warfare has been a staple of Indo-Pakistani relations since the two nations split, this relationship keeps them both off-balance, diverts resources and keeps the other nation honest. Pakistan, whether it admits to it or not, can fund militant groups in India that can be used to harass, demoralize and undermine India military effectiveness by sabotaging infrastructure, conduct psychological operations against Indian personal - such as gas lighting, and by conducting direct actions against important Indian targets.

The concern here is a return-of-the-favor.

4. Take advantage of India's often times poor procurement policies and bureaucracy that ham-strings its military development. India is underdeveloped militarily, and it's situation, while improving, still isn't anywhere near good enough, as noted in its Rafale and artillery tenders. If Pakistan can streamline its own procurement and iron-out its procurement necessities, it can better adapt to India before India even knows what it wants.

A classic example:
rafale_coming_full_circle.jpg


5. Leverage India's regional concerns. This goes along with point one, but Pakistan needs partners, not adversaries. If Pakistan can better its relations with Bangladesh, Myanmar and other regional nations, they can pin India into a corner and keep it honest in its military dealings. Encirclement overstretched already overstretched militaries, the Soviets found this out the hard way and spent unnecessarily to keep up with ever growing threats. If India's threat profile increases in its regional neighbors, it too will have to react to negate or mitigate that threat.

6. While military options are important, they are also expensive. Pakistan must continue with economic reform and progress. While some of the above options are fiscally doable on a smaller budget, such as funding proxies and militany groups - it's politically costly and the potential for these groups to turn on their host is a constant concern too, most of the options Pakistan can or will exercise require money... a lot of it.

Subs, frigates/destroyers, aircraft, missiles, these aren't cheap. Focus on the economy more-so then the military, but without completely neglecting the military either. Maintain a minimum credible deterrence and once the economic situation improves, shift military expenditure into high gear.

A great economic initiative:
CPEC-route-2.jpg


7. Once the economic situation improves, its time to ask yourselves, "what's next?" What's the next phase, the next plane of battle that we are likely to encounter? What system can give us an edge? Perhaps Pakistan can invest more in space? Develop your launch and satellite capabilities. Developing launch methods also helps domestic ballistic missile programs, often SLVs are derived from ICBMs or ICBMs are derived from SLVs. The development of long-range rockets, which can become missiles with the inclusion of a guidance system, can keep far-off powers honest too via MAD.

This also opens up the possibility for spy satellites, communications nodes and ASAT options which improve Pakistan's flexibility, allow it redundancies which make it less brittle and increase the headaches that India must account for and spend to counter.

US "Inspection Satellite" MiteX A
mitex-a__1.jpg


...

There you go. My thoughts on how Pakistan maintains a credible deterrence against a larger power

That's a well thought out and detailed analysis - Thanks ! :)

@Icarus @Xeric @Gufi @TaimiKhan @notorious_eagle @Jango @Jungibaaz - Give it a read ! :agree:

I think Pakistan is already working on some of those things but at the end of the day we're still a developing nation with the issues that all developing nations face; corruption, mismanagement and nepotism to list a few !

I think procuring platforms like the Erieyes, the AIP equipped subs, numerous stand-off weapons, a sanction free reasonably decent air platform like the Jf-17 to provide the Low end of our Hi-Low configuration, the development of tactical nukes, the development of ballistic missiles that cover India, the development of cruise missiles including talk of a sub-launched cruise missile, the renewed focus on completing the CPEC, the diversification of Pakistan's economy, the pursuit of a more pragmatic foreign policy, the attempts at rapprochement with Afghanistan, the enthusiastic drive at riding our country of terrorism and terrorist ideologies and the reaching out to former enemies (or there and about) like Russia, are all testament to us doing at least somethings right.

Besides....you forget, Pakistan has one thing that India does not - Me ! :smokin:
 
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That's a well thought out and detailed analysis - Thanks ! :)

:ashamed:

I think Pakistan is already working on some of those things but at the end of the day we're still a developing nation with the issues that all developing nations face; corruption, mismanagement and nepotism to list a few !

True, but every nation faces these concerns, so I'm not that willing to give Pakistan a pass. All nations, irrespective of their economic or political situation has to take their military seriously. If they don't we end up with the same scenarios that are now being seen around the world. Russia, thanks to misguided acquisitions policies is once again spending itself into oblivion, the US has propped up the LCS, Legend-class cutter, and other underwhelming programs because it doesn't have an alternative, India can't seem to buy a stick of gum without red tape getting in the way, the UK is slashing its budget at a time when trans-regional strife (such as in Africa and the Middle-East) means it needs a larger budget to better tackle political, military and humanitarian concerns, this is a problem for everyone, and to be honest, the whole "developing nation" thing strikes me as an excuse.

If you're a developing nation you should be developing quality habits to avoid the pitfalls that have befallen developed nations. Not using your underdevelopment as an excuse to avoid reforms.

If there is urgency, the situation will improve. Perhaps a crisis is what Pakistan needs to get the anchors out of its pants and press forwards with greater economic, political and military reforms... or maybe Pakistan will break?

I think procuring platforms like the Erieyes, the AIP equipped subs, numerous stand-off weapons, a sanction free reasonably decent air platform like the Jf-17 to provide the Low end of our Hi-Low configuration, the development of tactical nukes, the development of ballistic missiles that cover India, the development of cruise missiles including talk of a sub-launched cruise missile, the renewed focus on completing the CPEC, the diversification of Pakistan's economy, the pursuit of a more pragmatic foreign policy, the attempts at rapprochement with Afghanistan, the enthusiastic drive at riding our country of terrorism and terrorist ideologies and the reaching out to former enemies (or there and about) like Russia, are all testament to us doing at least somethings right.

Definitely! From the outside, it does seem that Pakistan is doing a lot of the things I mentioned, but what I'm wondering is whether they are part of a larger strategy, or just a series of seemingly inter-connected options, that are in reality being conducted separately? The latter is a problem, a targeted focus that's part of a greater plan can help Pakistan further refine each option and tailor its effectiveness.

I can't answer this question though, I'm not too familiar with Pakistan's strategies.

Besides....you forget, Pakistan has one thing that India does not - Me ! :smokin:

:lol:I'm not sure how much of a deterrent you'd be though.
 
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You are being sarcastic for nothing.
Are you aware that K-8 are being used in similar role in.Vamezuella against drug smugglers in Amazon forests? Neither the smugglers are short of money to have any less sophisticated weapons , nor the terrain is easy.
ohhhh... thanx for positivity i was realistic... :)
especially regarding reusing our old retired fighters,,, as our armoured divisions still have functioning tank.. T 29.. the point was on onset of war, whatever resources are at disposal Pakistan, we would use that...so was thinking useing old sabers and F-6s, euqipped with jammer pods (sole purpose w'd be deflecting enemy incoming A-to-A missiles), high power radars (home made passive ones but like awacs), targeting pods etc etc for their respective roles... Plus i know k-8 can be armed with 2, i think heat seeking missiles..
rest using spitfire p-8, p 51 etc are actually my dream/wish to be used by civlian/amateur in pakistan for fun purposes (but thz are made in modern times) ,, like su-31 which is highly aerobatic... just i discharged my feeling in that post.. so yes that was naive..
@Tipu7 @Max Pain
anyway any insight/article of possible usage of our retired fighters, except scarp
Amateur dog fight club/school of ww2 era planes
 
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