A new economic system for the near-future

[FlashGordon]

Hello, the below idea has been brewing in my head for some time and it came up during recent discussions with @Naofumi and @Soumitra in different threads. I present a new economic system that is needed especially in countries like India and Pakistan where old regressive social mores meet modern capitalist ideas to produce a toxic socio-economic culture where especially lot of the middle class does not look at the socio-economic disparities and injustices that happen because of an uneven money system.

My system is not entirely money-less but more an evolution and is as thus :

All basic needs ( housing, water, basic food, essential clothes, electricity, healthcare, communication, mass-public transport, legal service which will be rare anyway in such a system, etc ) being for free and the remaining things ( non-basic food, clothing accessories, hair styling, gym membership, transportation by taxi, the visit to the restaurant or tea-house, permission for house party, etc ) being a paid-for thing via an evolved money system like the "Social Credits" system being implemented in China.

Let's assume that the Social Credits for each person will be 20 at the start of every month. He will be able to obtain a few services with these Credits. He will need to do his designated regular job and any possible extra community service to increase the credits by say 5. Not doing certain things will decrease his Credits. Doing an anti-social thing will get him punished by jail or non-Credit community service depending on the severity. Importantly, the gained Credits do not add to the next month's Credits and make the person a "richer" man. They start fresh from 20.

This way there is no economic disparity, all get the basic necessities without suffering and anybody say with a penchant for stylish clothing and personal grooming will have to contribute harder to the community.

The system can be applied in three ways :

1. There already are economic unions such as the EU, ALBA and CIS. My proposal is just an advancement on these.

2. An individual country can adopt it while at the same time work with the accepted international trading currency, the American Dollar, because the country's means of production will have been nationalized and the goods and services will be exported by the system and not by individual private businesses.

3. The proposal can be later presented at international offline forums such as the UNO. There is no rational reason why a country cannot adopt it. Please see my signature below my post.

This is a work in progress. I plan to speak of this to various progressive movements in India at the right time.

---

@RealNapster @Joe Shearer @ps3linux @Indos @Moonlight @Iltutmish @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan others.

Nooooooooooo

This will work with ethical people.

People like me will not do any productive work if i get enough free food for stomach and a free house, which can be my abod to screw other people wives.

And people like me may be in majority. USSR collapse was driven by kaam chor like me.

 

[jamahir]

take for example a simple coke
soviets had to buy from america
when chernobyl happened
superiority of soviets was wide open to the world
it was all authoritarian regime

A True Communist society will not be a one-party authoritarian society but a direct democracy ( people directly ruling themselves ) like was in Libya until 2011. There was no party system there.

The USSR was an experiment, as is North Korea. Given time they would have evolved. For example, Venezuela under Chavez adapted for its situation the direct democracy system from Libya.

they even had to import lada from italy which was cancelled there
in the meantime japan was making 100,s different models every year

Well, there is no need for a country's citizens to own cars for their personal transport. When Uber came out their marketing statement was that very thing.

A properly planned city will have public transport ( buses etc ) for most needs and then taxis for the occasional visit to the tea house to meet friends or a hired customer-driven taxi for a long drive with your romantic partner.

So the USSR should have come to such a realization. Japan able to produce many car models every year isn't something that great.

its very good but we humans r very complicated species
we sometimes buy shitty things just because we want to

Buying shitty things is okay to an extent but what of things like buying drugs and men wearing rings all over their body ?

Nooooooooooo

This will work with ethical people.

People like me will not do any productive work if i get enough free food for stomach and a free house, which can be my abod to screw other people wives.

And people like me may be in majority. USSR collapse was driven by kaam chor like me.

About food, remember that migrant laborer woman in Muzaffarpur railway station some months ago who died of hunger on the platform ? She died because she had no money to buy food and carry it during the journey on the train and the railway authorities didn't provide food either. Was her death not entirely avoidable ? The Indian bureaucracy has the subsidized food system we call "Ration" for decades but it is not efficient and somehow not accessible to all which is why there are hunger deaths. There was a vid some months ago of a person on an Indian highway eating the remains of a road-kill dog. Isn't this ridiculous ? So many people in India go hungry or in malnutrition while no stray dog here goes hungry. Food should be available to all humans. It is a fundamental human right. Why should one unnecessarily and very avoidably struggle for it daily ?

About housing, Salman Khan can say to the Supreme Court, logically, that those homeless and sleeping people his SUV crushed on the footpath, the system failed those people by not giving them houses. I quote this source about homelessness in India and lack of good quality housing :

There are an estimated 1.8 million homeless people in India, with 52% based in urban areas. A further 73 million families lack access to decent housing (IGH, 2018; Habitat,2019).

Is this sad state necessary ? Is it not avoidable ? India is the second largest importer of armaments in the world but to what end ? The daily living conditions of so many Indians are lacking. When Gaddafi became the leader of Libya in 1969 he vowed that his own parents would live in a tent until all homeless Libyans had been housed properly. Decades on, India still has people either homeless or living badly. Is this not an artificial and avoidable state ? Why can't the government create townships ? India has a lot of free land.

About kaam chori, there is the famous communist slogan : "From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs". Every citizen in a communist society will have to contribute. You will see in the OP that I have said that in case he does not contribute his Social Credits will be reduced.

 

[FlashGordon]

A True Communist society will not be a one-party authoritarian society but a direct democracy ( people directly ruling themselves ) like was in Libya until 2011. There was no party system there.

The USSR was an experiment, as is North Korea. Given time they would have evolved. For example, Venezuela under Chavez adapted for its situation the direct democracy system from Libya.



Well, there is no need for a country's citizens to own cars for their personal transport. When Uber came out their marketing statement was that very thing.

A properly planned city will have public transport ( buses etc ) for most needs and then taxis for the occasional visit to the tea house to meet friends or a hired customer-driven taxi for a long drive with your romantic partner.

So the USSR should have come to such a realization. Japan able to produce many car models every year isn't something that great.



Buying shitty things is okay to an extent but what of things like buying drugs and men wearing rings all over their body ?



About food, remember that migrant laborer woman in Muzaffarpur railway station some months ago who died of hunger on the platform ? She died because she had no money to buy food and carry it during the journey on the train and the railway authorities didn't provide food either. Was her death not entirely avoidable ? The Indian bureaucracy has the subsidized food system we call "Ration" for decades but it is not efficient and somehow not accessible to all which is why there are hunger deaths. There was a vid some months ago of a person on an Indian highway eating the remains of a road-kill dog. Isn't this ridiculous ? So many people in India go hungry or in malnutrition while no stray dog here goes hungry. Food should be available to all humans. It is a fundamental human right. Why should one unnecessarily and very avoidably struggle for it daily ?

About housing, Salman Khan can say to the Supreme Court, logically, that those homeless and sleeping people his SUV crushed on the footpath, the system failed those people by not giving them houses. I quote this source about homelessness in India and lack of good quality housing :

Is this sad state necessary ? Is it not avoidable ? India is the second largest importer of armaments in the world but to what end ? The daily living conditions of so many Indians are lacking. When Gaddafi became the leader of Libya in 1969 he vowed that his own parents would live in a tent until all homeless Libyans had been housed properly. Decades on, India still has people either homeless or living badly. Is this not an artificial and avoidable state ? Why can't the government create townships ? India has a lot of free land.

About kaam chori, there is the famous communist slogan : "From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs". Every citizen in a communist society will have to contribute. You will see in the OP that I have said that in case he does not contribute his Social Credits will be reduced.

You are an idealist, a dreamer. Its ok with me.

I am a realist. For me if Govt removes all reservations and consider only merit, it will be a good India. Govt should only provide high quality free education till plus 2. Post that let people earn and finance their education. Govt should provide basic ratio in lieu of community work ( Swaksh Bharat ) and midical care....and focus on governance.

More judges, more doctors, more teachers

Govt should step out of religious matters but enforce constitution or equality ( even if it is against Khaap or any ism).

 

[Indus Pakistan]

All basic needs ( housing, water, basic food, essential clothes, electricity, healthcare, communication, mass-public transport, legal service which will be rare anyway in such a system, etc ) being for free

This sounds like socialist hell. People will eat, use electricity, transport as if it is free [which it will] leading to massive waste and bankrupting the country. I know for sure Pakistan would fall apart. Part of the problem in Pakistan is because they use stuff like electricity and do NOT pay for the true cost. I saw with my own eyes fans on in every room and even a huge fan on in the garden when there was only one servant who was lazing on a charpoy. Obviously the meter was tampered so there was no incentive to reduce the carbon footprint.

Libya until 2011

Libya is the best example why this system is a disaster. Look at Libya today. Success of anything is in the pudding. UAE, Bahrain, Qatar despite my repulsion of those countries are sterling success stories in comparison.

And remember "proof in the pudding" not "if/buts".

 

[jamahir]

You are an idealist, a dreamer. Its ok with me.

I am a realist.

I quoted examples that happened. Real. Existent.

For me if Govt removes all reservations and consider only merit, it will be a good India.

Firstly, why should you think a Dalit student who gets a college seat on Reservation is less intellectually gifted than a student from a non-Dalit community ?

Secondly, about "merit" in education and the limited seats in a school or college, the simple solution is to set up hundreds of new education institutions and make education free for all, whether a Dalit or a Brahman or a Christian or any other. The resources to come for this can be drastically, drastically reducing spending on India's military which is the second largest importer of armaments in the world.

Reservations, especially for Dalits, were needed because of an oppressive and unjust social structure that existed in 1947 so the idea was to lay down positive discrimination laws that would allow Dalits entry in education and employment in positions that earlier were almost fully closed to them.

An example about anti-Dalit oppression. I read about a village in the North where if a Dalit happens to touch a biscuit pack in a small shop he has to buy it. The upper caste shopkeeper will not keep the touched pack.

Another example. There was an Indian Idol contestant I think two years ago who said in his audition that in his village ( or town ) no music teacher would take him as student citing some or the other excuse. All this because he was a Dalit. The contestant had a sorrowful air about him. Judge Vishal Dadlani welcomed him into the competition saying that Bollywood lays no social boundaries that cannot be crossed.

Final example. There are so-called educated upper-caste, middle-class Indian youth who go to America to work in IT companies and carry their obsolete anti-Dalit baggage. Being in America even they don't allow Dalits among their ranks to progress and gang up to create injustice for the Dalit employees.

There are Dalit leaders like Jignesh Mevani and Chandrashekar Azad Ravan who know the socio-economic ills that target their community.

Govt should only provide high quality free education till plus 2. Post that let people earn and finance their education.

Why can't education be free to the full extent, not just plus 2 ?

Govt should provide basic ratio in lieu of community work ( Swaksh Bharat ) and midical care....and focus on governance.

Ratio ? You mean Ration ? Please again read the OP.

And free education and free medical care should be part of any sensible governance. If not, what else ?

More judges, more doctors, more teachers

Certainly.

About judges, there are 30+ million court cases pending in India. Somebody said there would be needed a few thousand judges more to resolve these cases. The solution is simple. Communism. How ? For example, out of those many pending cases many are land / estate cases, some pending for decades. This situation is because land in India can be privately owned and this leads to potential for dispute. Now imagine if India was a communist country with land being managed by some land committee on behalf of the society. No disputes would have existed in the first place.

Govt should step out of religious matters but enforce constitution or equality ( even if it is against Khaap or any ism).

Of course.

This sounds like socialist hell. People will eat, use electricity, transport as if it is free [which it will] leading to massive waste and bankrupting the country. I know for sure Pakistan would fall apart. Part of the problem in Pakistan is because they use stuff like electricity and do NOT pay for the true cost. I saw with my own eyes fans on in every room and even a huge fan on in the garden when there was only one servant who was lazing on a charpoy. Obviously the meter was tampered so there was no incentive to reduce the carbon footprint.

The situation you describe is because food production is artificially not enough, public transport uses imported, expensive and non-renewable fossil fuels, and electricity is generally produced using fossil fuels.

Answer : Urban Farming + Vertical Farming, Electric vehicles, Almost perpetual, portable electric source like NDB.

Libya is the best example why this system is a disaster. Look at Libya today. Success of anything is in the pudding. UAE, Bahrain, Qatar despite my repulsion of those countries are sterling success stories in comparison.

And remember "proof in the pudding" not "if/buts".

Nevertheless I will ask a but. Wasn't Libya invaded by the militaries of NATO + GCC plus thousands of terrorists from around the world ? Was Libya a disaster before 2011 ? Simple questions.

Please read this thread from 2015 about the before and after about the Libyan war, and this letter / essay by Gaddafi from 2011.

 

[prashantazazel]

Flaws in this

1. No incentive to save and accumulate.
2. It doesn't differentiate between a high skilled job and a low skilled job.
3. It doesn't see a significant difference between a high effort and a low effort worker.
4. No difference between intelligent and not-so intelligent people.

(In your engineer example, the typical doctor has to study much more than the typical engineer. An engineer finishes studies by 21 -24 years of age. A doctor wastes all his youth studying. This is a bigger sacrifice on the part of the doctor.)

 

[jamahir]

1. No incentive to save and accumulate.

Why would you need to do such an artificial and unnecessary thing ?

You would either get access to goods and services that are either free ( basic ones ) or through the monthly cycle of Social Credits ( paid for ) or through a non-interest loan ( for "expensive / luxury" items ).

2. It doesn't differentiate between a high skilled job and a low skilled job.

Every year in India more than 150,000 computer engineers graduate from colleges. This has been so for at least 15 years. Yet there has been not a single indigenous development in India of the two fundamental elements of a computer : the microprocessor and the operating system. This despite the large number of these engineers. Do you consider these computer engineers in India as "highly skilled" ? I don't think so.

3. It doesn't see a significant difference between a high effort and a low effort worker.

How would you rate the efforts of a basic computer programmer to that of an engineer / worker / assistant who is involved in construction of a 3D Printed house, open as he is to the natural elements ( sunlight etc ) ?

 

[prashantazazel]

Why would you need to do such an artificial and unnecessary thing

Saving and accumulating, for future needs/wants comes naturally to human beings. Delaying gratification is one of the basic principles of success when resources are limited.

I don't find the engineering graduates to be the smartest of the lot. They are book smart. Unless they learn to apply that knowledge towards innovation and research, their efforts are largely useless.
Besides, we don't have an ecosystem for research, pure sciences, etc. Careers in these fields aren't rewarding in India. But that's not related to wealth. Low quality leadership is mostly to blame. But this is going off topic.

 

[jamahir]

Saving and accumulating, for future needs/wants comes naturally to human beings. Delaying gratification is one of the basic principles of success when resources are limited.

Sure, squirrels and honeybees accumulate for future needs but they don't accumulate money. Money is an artificial system which is savable / accumulatable in only certain human societies, so it is not a natural element to humans.

In my proposed system, needs / wants, whether of now or in the future, are taken care of by the system and the system will remain, not go away. I will quote from my previous post :

You would either get access to goods and services that are either free ( basic ones ) or through the monthly cycle of Social Credits ( paid for ) or through a non-interest loan ( for "expensive / luxury" items ).

About resources, you said correctly that some resources can be limited ( even with the advent of 3D Printing ), so these few items are not free but are obtained either through the Social Credits of that month or an interest-free loan with reasonable EMIs broken away from the monthly Social Credits.

I don't find the engineering graduates to be the smartest of the lot. They are book smart. Unless they learn to apply that knowledge towards innovation and research, their efforts are largely useless.

 

[jamahir]

This is not the place to discuss this topic.
Link me to a thread where I will take you up on this. I have been reading your posts and I find your knowledge of Communism and Socialism completely confused.
Am an amateur Marxist myself and follow the "Third Internationale "

The basic concept of Socialism;
"From each according to his ability to each according to his work "
So Socialism distributes wealth to the workers who generate it in proportion to the individual contribution. The capitalist middle man, or an inheritor of the means of production is not entitled to the wealth generated because he is not contributing to it. Simply because a land lord has inherited the land it does not give him the right to oppress and exploit those landless peasants who work on it.
However the distribution of wealth is according to the input.
A healthy worker can produce more goods than an older or weaker one and hence deserves more of the share.

Under Communism;

"From each according to his ability to each according to his needs"
Here the "needs " is important. A disabled person unable to contribute to general prosperity stil has basic needs, an ill educated peasant would still need a good school for his children.

Baibars, please read the OP and the discussion and then we can continue this conversation.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Hello, the below idea has been brewing in my head for some time and it came up during recent discussions with @Naofumi and @Soumitra in different threads. I present a new economic system that is needed especially in countries like India and Pakistan where old regressive social mores meet modern capitalist ideas to produce a toxic socio-economic culture where especially lot of the middle class does not look at the socio-economic disparities and injustices that happen because of an uneven money system.

My system is not entirely money-less but more an evolution and is as thus :

All basic needs ( housing, water, basic food, essential clothes, electricity, healthcare, communication, mass-public transport, legal service which will be rare anyway in such a system, etc ) being for free and the remaining things ( non-basic food, clothing accessories, hair styling, gym membership, transportation by taxi, the visit to the restaurant or tea-house, permission for house party, etc ) being a paid-for thing via an evolved money system like the "Social Credits" system being implemented in China.

Let's assume that the Social Credits for each person will be 20 at the start of every month. He will be able to obtain a few services with these Credits. He will need to do his designated regular job and any possible extra community service to increase the credits by say 5. Not doing certain things will decrease his Credits. Doing an anti-social thing will get him punished by jail or non-Credit community service depending on the severity. Importantly, the gained Credits do not add to the next month's Credits and make the person a "richer" man. They start fresh from 20.

This way there is no economic disparity, all get the basic necessities without suffering and anybody say with a penchant for stylish clothing and personal grooming will have to contribute harder to the community.

The system can be applied in three ways :

1. There already are economic unions such as the EU, ALBA and CIS. My proposal is just an advancement on these.

2. An individual country can adopt it while at the same time work with the accepted international trading currency, the American Dollar, because the country's means of production will have been nationalized and the goods and services will be exported by the system and not by individual private businesses.

3. The proposal can be later presented at international offline forums such as the UNO. There is no rational reason why a country cannot adopt it. Please see my signature below my post.

This is a work in progress. I plan to speak of this to various progressive movements in India at the right time.

---

Nice proposal.
Let me add the following:

Coming back to fundamentalist Marxist doctrine, wealth distribution was based on ownership of the "means of production ".
The concept of "Surplus Value":
Surplus Value is excessive cost of an object beyond what is its actual cost :
Let us take the famous case of the carpenters working in workshop that is owned by another person :
Accountants have worked out the cost of carpenters wages ( inclusive of tools, power, rental and maintenance of the property etc. ) at say Rs. 200 per hour ( of which the carpenters salary is Rs. 100 ), It takes three hours to make the chair which costs Rs. 600.
Adding taxes of Rs.30 ( 5%) the chair is sold in the market for Rs. 1000
Thus Rs. 370 is paid into the pocket of the owner of the workshop.
Assuming the owner is also working as a manager at the rate of Rs. 200 per hour, there is still a Surplus Value of Rs. 170 going to the owner simply because he owns the "means of production ". A school
buying 1000 chairs for children will be paying Rs. 170,000 more into the pocket of the owner, and the carpenter's son who needs an education, will be paying higher fees to a school that will need to cover the cost of chairs by charging higher fees. The cycle goes on for every thing, clothing, food, housing, power, medicines hospitals. By turning the "means of production " over to the workers, peasants, and miners the wealth gets distributed, taxes are held steady , and cost of living drastically comes down with social development and good utilities.
This actually happened in Russia in the first socialist experiment in the 1920s which is why the Soviet Union rapidly transformed from a 90% illiterate agricultural low technology peasant state , run by aristocrats, landlords, and extremely wealthy capitalists into a technological and industrial power house with a high degree of literacy. Russia ( Soviet Union) made up centuries of scientific and industrial backwardness a compared to the west . Dumping religion and freeing the people from exploitation by a corrupt clergy that fueled religious wars and hatred against minorities was a great step.

There were however unforeseen factors that later on caused the experiment to falter as we shall see in my next post. Meanwhile please comment on this one

 

[AgnosticIndian]

Basically a strong welfare state like the ones in Scandinavia with Universal Basic Income. We would need a strong economy to sustain this system with high taxes though. If our per capita GDP reaches European level only then we can afford something like this.

 

[peagle]

There were however unforeseen factors that later on caused the experiment to falter

lol
I loved the description,
unforeseen factors lol

I really enjoy your expressive terms

 

[Baibars_1260]

lol
I loved the description,
unforeseen factors lol

I really enjoy your expressive terms

The "factor " is human nature.
As Somerset Maugham has described it is unpredictable.
Even if all the material needs are met human nature wants to "own" not "share". Also linguistic, and latent religious factors can build up stresses which they did in most socialist experiments.

Which is why only those modern societies are successful that have a cultural and religious homogeneity coupled with secularism or rather separation of church from state.

 

[peagle]

The "factor " is human nature.
As Somerset Maugham has described it is unpredictable.
Even if all the material needs are met human nature wants to "own" not "share". Also linguistic, and latent religious factors can build up stresses which they did in most socialist experiments.

Which is why only those modern societies are successful that have a cultural and religious homogeneity coupled with secularism or rather separation of church from state.

I thought you were referring to the millions of deaths under Stalin's "reforms" and the second world war. I was impressed by your choice of words lol