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A new economic system for the near-future

@jamahir sahib is diehard supporter of his ideology , i respect him , india is a place yoiu will find such great intellectuals .
but they don't stick to their ideology that is why they failed . india needs society propagated by him . even after being being a hinduwadi i support his kind of society . but they are not practical

Thank you for the support and yes, the older public communists in India have largely failed to implement social, economic and industrial change in the states they governed. I speak of West Bengal and Tripura. Kerala seems to have some development in recent years through the tech sector. One innovation from a Kerala company is the Bandicoot robot created to clean manholes.

In WB the public communists admitted that in previous years they unnecessarily spoke against computers and other automation in various sectors on the grounds that human labor will be left unemployed.
 
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Wow ! 620 million CCTV cameras !

I too took part of my proposal from the Chinese Social Credits system but in the Chinese system I don't see replenishment of Social Credits after a person has done wrong. For how long will such a person not be able to say take a fast train ?
 
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@Sudarshan,

What I propose is a hybrid public-private company system :
a. The political system be a Direct Democracy where the society is governed by a party-less model, where the people at neighborhood-level are able to suggest and enable decisions taken at the highest level. Such a system was in place in Libya before the 2011 invasion. Items, decisions and ideas like security, food production and distribution, education etc be the executive responsibility of committees set up by the people through open debate. ATM I will just mention this introduction to the political system.​
b. There be a bank that will lend non-interest-based loans so that people are able to acquire things to start their company. Things like office space, furniture, machinery, tools, decor, food items etc. The bank be run by a committee of the people arranged from the general public. The bank will manage such resources on behalf of the public.​
c. If you read the OP in this thread you will understand that a company in such an economic arrangement need not conjure up special money to pay salary to the employees. The money is an automatic thing.​
d. The founders of the company will repay the bank loan every months in easy installments.​
 
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and obey Modi's orders to bang eating plates to drive away Corona.
Well this showed your ignorance, Modi said that at 5 PM for 5 Minutes all come at their Balconies and beat them together as a tribute to frontline warriors, he never said it will drive away covid.
 
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Well this showed your ignorance, Modi said that at 5 PM for 5 Minutes all come at their Balconies and beat them together as a tribute to frontline warriors, he never said it will drive away covid.

What about these two women ? Did they misunderstand Modi's sentiments by mixing them up with their own superstitious beliefs ?
 
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What about these two women ? Did they misunderstand Modi's sentiments by mixing them up with their own superstitious beliefs ?
What are trying to say? There are jokers everywhere, you are saying that 2 idiots started BSing so Modi = Culprit? I mean what kind of lame arguement is this?
 
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What are trying to say? There are jokers everywhere, you are saying that 2 idiots started BSing so Modi = Culprit? I mean what kind of lame arguement is this?

Though Modi could have done drastically nice things like setting up free hospitals, 100 new actually Smart Cities ( with Urban Farms, Vertical Farms, American-suburbs-style housing, no privately-owned personal transport vehicles etc ) and actually depositing 15 lakhs in citizens' bank accounts and exhorting the public to rid themselves of superstitions and regressive attitudes it is nice that he has one or two good advisors who have helped in allowing India to have private spacecraft development companies and talk of locally establishing fabrication plants for computer microprocessors.
 
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@OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ , I am going back to my original idea of rejecting the concept of stock exchanges. They are not needed. As against my idea in the other thread of allowing companies to raise funds for immediate research for some product or experimentation, by selling stocks, the companies can instead get non-interest loans from the single, system-owned bank. Since the workers in the company are equal partners they can chip in a reasonable, equal amount from their monthly social credits / dollars ( please see the OP of this thread ) and repay the loan over months.
 
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@OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ , I am going back to my original idea of rejecting the concept of stock exchanges. They are not needed. As against my idea in the other thread of allowing companies to raise funds for immediate research for some product or experimentation, by selling stocks, the companies can instead get non-interest loans from the single, system-owned bank. Since the workers in the company are equal partners they can chip in a reasonable, equal amount from their monthly social credits / dollars ( please see the OP of this thread ) and repay the loan over months.
Credits and debits is exactly what current system is...
To have one you need the other... to have a positive balance sheet there must be someone simultaneously having an equal in negative.
Theoretically though... However, the system is geared towards optics and consumption... to acquire one must therefore go in negative and put his time and services in lieu of that acquisition...
But,
Negative balance is multiple times as hard to get out of depending on series of factors... i.e. interest or time pledged... nature of work etc.

Besides winners and losers are chosen by those with a balance sheet... majority just makes it possible for the few...

Secondly, system of credits or fiat cannot be conferred... no intrinsic value... just a control.

Khidr repaired the wall for two orphans... so that the treasure that lies therein would reach them in their adulthood.

What credits, fiat currency or crypto would have survived nature to deliver value at any point in future.

Today people rue the day, had they bought xyz stocks...

Gimmicks really.
Start with the architecture of the system to see through it!
 
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@jamahir

How would the gov decide b/w 10 or 100 or 1000 monthly credits? Why not just let them save their credits? There's less need for a loan that way which limits bureaucracy & therefore lowers resource waste. Any loan can also be paid off sooner. It will also give more incentive for them to make contributions. You claim that this way there won't be a "richer" man but you have already done that by giving them extra credits. Would you not continue giving them extra credits for some contributions or is it just a one off reward for everything? Either way, ppl working harder to gain more monthly credits is by definition making them richer. Even if you reset the credits each period, they were richer for that month.

How does the gov even decide how many credits a contribution is worth? What if an invention turns out to be worth more than what the gov gave you? What if they're not able to spend any number of their extra credits during the month? For e.g. they were injured or so busy they couldn't do anything or they just didn't like any of the products available. How would you compensate them then? Are they able to defer when they get credits?
Is it possible to transfer credits to someone? Say I want to watch a movie with my friend but he doesn't have anymore credits. Is it then ok that he is able to receive credits from me? Is it ok for me to buy the ticket for him?
If no, then why not? I'm simply helping out a friend. Isn't sharing & extending a helping hand central to your ideology? Doesn't mean for much if I can't even help others out by giving them credits I don't need or want to use.
If yes, then why can't I just save credits as well? More importantly for your ideology, why should such ppl be given such preferential treatment? Remember he hasn't EARNED these credits.

Your idea of easy interest-free consumer loans is also highly inflationary to say the least. Investing & Islamic banking are alternatives but your system doesn't allow for capital or commercial lending.

Btw, where would the credits from sales go? I'm assuming they would add to the monthly credit of seller? But then the problems outlined above arise.

Basic amenities are free. Ok, good luck preventing ppl from wasting resources. Vertical farming or whatever isn't going to solve the problem of limited resources. You need materials to make such farms to begin with. You can make the most efficient farms to cover the waste but at the end of the day you're still putting in more resources than required & therefore have less resources for creating other things. Same goes for other things such as renewable energy since such things also require resources to be built.
Hello, the below idea has been brewing in my head for some time and it came up during recent discussions with @Naofumi and @Soumitra in different threads. I present a new economic system that is needed especially in countries like India and Pakistan where old regressive social mores meet modern capitalist ideas to produce a toxic socio-economic culture where especially lot of the middle class does not look at the socio-economic disparities and injustices that happen because of an uneven money system.

My system is not entirely money-less but more an evolution and is as thus :

All basic needs ( housing, water, basic food, essential clothes, electricity, healthcare, communication, mass-public transport, legal service which will be rare anyway in such a system, etc ) being for free and the remaining things ( non-basic food, clothing accessories, hair styling, gym membership, transportation by taxi, the visit to the restaurant or tea-house, permission for house party, etc ) being a paid-for thing via an evolved money system like the "Social Credits" system being implemented in China.

Let's assume that the Social Credits for each person will be 20 at the start of every month. He will be able to obtain a few services with these Credits. He will need to do his designated regular job and any possible extra community service to increase the credits by say 5. Not doing certain things will decrease his Credits. Doing an anti-social thing will get him punished by jail or non-Credit community service depending on the severity. Importantly, the gained Credits do not add to the next month's Credits and make the person a "richer" man. They start fresh from 20.

This way there is no economic disparity, all get the basic necessities without suffering and anybody say with a penchant for stylish clothing and personal grooming will have to contribute harder to the community.

The system can be applied in three ways :

1. There already are economic unions such as the EU, ALBA and CIS. My proposal is just an advancement on these.

2. An individual country can adopt it while at the same time work with the accepted international trading currency, the American Dollar, because the country's means of production will have been nationalized and the goods and services will be exported by the system and not by individual private businesses.

3. The proposal can be later presented at international offline forums such as the UNO. There is no rational reason why a country cannot adopt it. Please see my signature below my post.

This is a work in progress. I plan to speak of this to various progressive movements in India at the right time.

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@RealNapster @Joe Shearer @ps3linux @Indos @Moonlight @Iltutmish @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan others.

Some things you haven't considered:

How would the gov decide b/w 10 or 100 or 1000 monthly credits? The higher it is, the more things will cost aka inflation. Your idea of easy interest-free consumer loans makes it even worse. Investing & Islamic banking are alternatives but your system doesn't allow for capital or commercial lending.

Why not just let them save their credits? There's less need for a loan that way which limits bureaucracy & therefore lowers resource waste. Any loan can also be paid off sooner. It will also give more incentive for them to make contributions. However, you claim that saving creates a richer class but you have already done that by giving them extra credits. Would you not continue giving them extra credits for some contributions or is it just a one off reward for everything? Either way, ppl working harder to gain more monthly credits is by definition making them richer. Even if you reset the credits each period, they were richer for that month. It's even more apparent if the number of credits is different for different contributions such as community service vs job vs invention, etc.

How does the gov even decide how many credits a contribution is worth? What if an invention turns out to be worth more than what the gov gave you? What if they're not able to spend any number of their extra credits during the month? For e.g. they were injured or so busy they couldn't do anything or they just didn't like any of the products available or they died before receiving credits. How would you compensate them then? Are they able to defer when they get credits? Is it possible to transfer credits to someone else? Say I want to watch a movie with my dad but he doesn't have anymore credits. Is it then ok that he is able to receive credits from me? Is it ok for me to buy the ticket for him?
If no, then why not? I'm simply helping out my dad. Isn't sharing & extending a helping hand central to your ideology? Doesn't mean for much if I can't even help others, especially family, by giving them credits I don't need or want to use.
If yes, then why can't I just save credits as well? More importantly for your ideology, why should such ppl be given such preferential treatment? Remember he hasn't EARNED these credits.

Btw, where would the credits from sales go? I'm assuming they would add to the monthly credit of seller? But then the problems outlined above arise. It gets more complicated with companies.

Making basic amenities free is also going to result in a massive waste of resources. Ppl are going to abuse this to hell. Vertical farming or whatever isn't going to solve the problem of limited resources. You need raw materials to make such farms to begin with. You can make the most efficient farms to cover the waste but at the end of the day you're still putting in more time & resources than would have otherwise been required & therefore have less time & resources for making other things. Same goes for other things such as renewable energy.
 
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Hi, I took this much time to reply because I wanted to be clear in the reply.

How would the gov decide b/w 10 or 100 or 1000 monthly credits?

Well, that amount I have not decided now. I think it should be based on the labor and material cost of creating simplifying technologies like 3D Printers and Vertical Farm installations.

Why not just let them save their credits?

1. That would simply lead to many hoarding their monthly credits which would make them "rich" at some point in the future compared to others which would defeat the point of the OP.

2. Hoarding of credits will also lead to many not utilizing the available products and services which would lead to wastage of human effort and materials and an inefficient economy.

There's less need for a loan that way which limits bureaucracy & therefore lowers resource waste. Any loan can also be paid off sooner. It will also give more incentive for them to make contributions.

Not much bureaucracy is required if the overall system is simple and there is computerization. Please see this post.

Is it possible to transfer credits to someone? Say I want to watch a movie with my friend but he doesn't have anymore credits. Is it then ok that he is able to receive credits from me? Is it ok for me to buy the ticket for him?
If no, then why not? I'm simply helping out a friend. Isn't sharing & extending a helping hand central to your ideology? Doesn't mean for much if I can't even help others out by giving them credits I don't need or want to use.

Yes, sharing and helping is central to my ideology so you transferring some credits to your friend to watch a film is possible, just that, as normal, the transfer is debited in your personal computer, added in his personal computer and the transaction recorded by the bank, otherwise no problem.

If yes, then why can't I just save credits as well? More importantly for your ideology, why should such ppl be given such preferential treatment? Remember he hasn't EARNED these credits.

He has earned by contributing positively to a harmonious society, by not acting against it. You watching a film with him is not harming society.

Your idea of easy interest-free consumer loans is also highly inflationary to say the least. Investing & Islamic banking are alternatives but your system doesn't allow for capital or commercial lending.

1. What do you mean by "inflationary" ?

2. Islamic banking and non-existence of stock market are also where I derived my idea from just that my idea simplified the those ideas more.

Btw, where would the credits from sales go? I'm assuming they would add to the monthly credit of seller? But then the problems outlined above arise.

The sales credits would indeed go to the seller and be distributed equally among all the contributors who lead to the sales, whether it be the security guard, the computer programmer, the leaders etc.

Basic amenities are free. Ok, good luck preventing ppl from wasting resources. Vertical farming or whatever isn't going to solve the problem of limited resources. You need materials to make such farms to begin with. You can make the most efficient farms to cover the waste but at the end of the day you're still putting in more resources than required & therefore have less resources for creating other things. Same goes for other things such as renewable energy since such things also require resources to be built.

Well, if we look at things at system level and see the things in a closed loop then lot of wastage won't exist. For example, who builds the Vertical Farm ? A company which uses a big 3D Printer to build the farm, and this company will source the cement, metal frames, sand etc build a safe and comfortable VF with well-placed provision for solar cells for the electricals. Please further see this thread of mine for battery technology. What about the water ? The district committee for water supply sees to it. What about the seeds ? The district agricultural committee sees to it. What about the lighting and other elements of environment control ? An appropriate company is contracted. What about the water-based nutrients for the plants ? The same. What about the trays and holders for the plants ? The same. The computers and sensors ? The same.

Also, the socio-economic and technological elements in the society should work in harmony with a simple and truly democratic political system. The Greeks thought up of the concept of Demokratia about 2500 years ago, a system where the people will directly talk about the issues and ideas for their society and implement them without a complicated political structure and someone bossing over them. But this concept was flawed because it did not include women and it maintained a slave system who also could not contribute to the public consultations. But the modern Libyan system called Jamahiriya, again a direct democracy concept, truly included all members of society in every issue discussion and ideation. Please read this thread from 2015 on how that system worked in practice and this thread of mine on its technicalities ( you have asked me there and I will reply at the soonest ). The system was adapted to Venezuela by Hugo Chavez. Please note that the "Municipal Peoples Congress" in case of present India would be assigned to the 748 districts here.

How does the gov even decide how many credits a contribution is worth? What if an invention turns out to be worth more than what the gov gave you?

1. Like you will see in the Jamahiriya political system concept the "government" will be the people themselves through the congresses and the committees they will set up.

2. For a service or a product, say someone doing your garden, the credits to be paid should of course be a reasonable number decided with public consultation based on the labor and the needed materials to be sourced. A member has told me that he sells luxury jewelry and I think I have answered him acceptably with my point being that the buyer can take a loan to avail of the product.

3. Can you give an example of a invention that can be worth more than the monthly credits within context of above points 1 and 2 ?

What if they're not able to spend any number of their extra credits during the month? For e.g. they were injured or so busy they couldn't do anything or they just didn't like any of the products available or they died before receiving credits. How would you compensate them then? Are they able to defer when they get credits?

1. If they were not able to spend their credits that month then no problem, the system will give them the same fixed credits the next month - a monthly cycling amount like I said. They can do any reasonable thing they want with those next month's credits.

2. The monthly credits exist per person so if someone died though their family will not receive the deceased's credits they will also not individually suffer because the basic services are free and the non-basic services can be availed by their own individual monthly credits. And if the deceased had taken a loan for some personal item like luxury furniture then the deceased's family will be able to pay off that loan at a reasonable period rate and the family dividing up the loan repayment amongst themselves in the same way you wanted to transfer some credits to your friend to watch a film but the actual loan repayer being one person from the family to whom the other members keep transferring some amount every month. If the deceased had taken a corporate loan while being one of the leaders of a company then the deceased's family will take over the loan as before and contribute that loan repayment fraction to to the already divided up amount from the company's workers.
 
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The role of the bank in such a socio-economic system :

The money is simply a monthly recycling amount for each citizen. It need not be deposited in a bank in a savings account but exist within the citizen's personal wearable computer in a secure digital storage. When citizens do financial transaction, whether on personal reasons or a B2B or C2B transaction, the amount is deducted in the personal computers of the transacting parties and is also securely recorded by the bank so that not only is any loan amount repayment seriousness known by the bank but also political criminals ( assassins, saboteurs etc ) and anti-social criminals are not able to transact.

"Funds" in such a context are just numbers. They exist in the citizen's computer and the bank's computer.
 
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A photo article from October 2011 having photos of people participating in the Occupy movement in many parts of the world. The movement started as Occupy Wall Street and wanted the end of most Capitalism including shutting down of the stock exchanges in Wall Street and London. The movement wanted the governments in their countries to arrange free ( without money exchange ) access to things like housing, healthcare and education. I believe this was the biggest people's revolution in the Western bloc and their main slogan was "We are the 99 percent" meaning they are the socio-economically deprived people who don't have access to the things that the 1 percent of rich people have. The movement recognized the socio-economic disparities in the Western bloc and sought to end them. I don't know what has become of the movement now. But please go through the photos.

@Mentee @fitpOsitive @Joe Shearer @Bilal9

@Atlas, I will reply to your 'Whatever' post but please do go through the above article.

@nahtanbob @Hamartia Antidote
 
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