What's new

A cultural discussion : Indo-Japanese historical relationship

On this aspect tho, it is hard to really say if the 'Aryas' were really of a different race. Perhaps this differentiation was cultivated for merely political reasons to maintain the ruling base..

A post of mine from today on a different thread:


The word Aryan while meaning nobility was used in a very limited sense in the Rig veda. The Rig veda itself is a book where the only the 5 principal "lunar" tribes are mentioned, one of the most important tribes in India, the Ikshvakus (of Rama fame) barely get a mention in because they are a "solar" tribe. Even among the "Chandravanshis", the Rig veda is primarily a book of the Purus & more specifically of the Bharatas, a sub-tribe of the Purus. In the Rig veda, the word "Aryan" is used almost exclusively with the Bharatas/Purus, in essence it was what a particular tribe called themselves (not a whole bunch of invaders/immigrants). Over time as their influence spread, this was to extend, like the book itself, to a much larger area, eventually encompassing a large geographical area which was called Aryavarta (abode of the Aryans). It also the same case of how the word Bharat (from the pre-Rig vedic king of the Bharatas) was to expand itself to mean the whole area south of the Himalayas (from east of the Indus) till the ocean by the time of the Mahabharata.
 
Last edited:
.
Sharma (2005) notes that the advent of the Aryans in India in the second millennium BCE has long be considered a pivotal event in the history of the subcontinent , a view now under contestation academically ( as well as politically by the Hindu Right). It has gone unnotied in this context that one of the earliest coherent critiques of this regnant paradigm was offered by an opponent of the Hindu Right, Dr. B.R Ambedkar. His views on the Aryan invasion and the emergence of the caste system in India --- is rather interesting.



Ambedkar summarizes the existing paradigm in the form of the following seven propositions:

1) The people who created the Vedic literature belonged to the Aryan race

2) This Aryan race came from outside India and invaded India

3) The natives of India were known as Dasas and Dasyus who were racially different from the Aryans

4) The Aryans were a Caucasoid Race.

5) The Dasas and Dasyus after they were conquered and enslaved were called Shudras

6) The Aryans cherished colour prejudice and formed the Chaturvarnya whereby they separated the white race from the black race such as the Dasas and Dasyus.





Reference:

Sharma A. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar on the Aryan Invasion and the Emergence of the Caste System in India. Journal of the American Academy of Religion [serial online]. 2005:843. Available from: JSTOR Journals, Ipswich, MA. Accessed May 31, 2015.

1) In the SSC sites there was no trace of an invasion.
2) Towards stage VII* of harappan period evidences of circular houses were found. These ppl were called the "newcomers" by archeologists. And these newcomers had no concept of planning(which is strange because till then the inhabitants of SSC preferred rectangular shapes of certain proportions). These new comers also had no knowledge of classical Harappan fabrics, shapes and designs and the painted grey ware (PGW).
We can only assume that these newcomers were aryans. But they arrived on the site too late. The saraswati river had dried up and the inhabitants had moved to ganges plains.
References: The lost river: On trail of the Saraswati - Michel Danino
A new model Harappan town planning in Dholavira- RS. Bhist


*Harappan period is divided into 3 diff timelines in which mature period is between 2600–1900 BCE, pre-Harappan cultures starts at 7500 BCE. This is further subdivided into different stages.
 
.
There are some similarities between Dravidian, Japanese, Korean. I mean common words.

Also Japanese Buddhism came from Bharat. For many years Japanese have defended their culture against Europeans !

A. Is there a linguistic link ?


For years I have been watching from the sidelines as the opponents battle it out. For the players this fight will go on and on, and the theater of war is right here.

This is a linguistic war, but it naturally involves archaeology, history, religion and a host of wounded egos. The question to be decided is: What exactly are the origins of the Japanese language?

It has generally been accepted by most scholars that Japanese is an Altaic language, derived from a tongue that originated on the steppes of Asia and migrated in various directions, evolving into Turkish, Mongolian and Korean. Structural similarities among these languages seem to support this.

But there was also migration to Japan from the south, through the islands of the Ryukyu chain. Ryukyuan, in its various forms, is the only language closely related to Japanese. The input from Polynesia into Japanese seems to be evident, particularly in the dominance of vowels and the use of the repetitive plural (yamayama for “mountains,” hitobito for “people,” etc.)

But then Susumu Ohno, a renowned linguist and classicist, came along and popularized the theory that Japanese was overwhelmingly influenced by Dravidian languages, particularly Tamil, brought to these shores some 2,000 years ago during the Yayoi Period (500 B.C. to 300 A.D.), when the Japanese began rice-paddy cultivation.

Ohno made his claim for the predominant influence of Tamil on the Japanese vocabulary nearly 30 years ago. (He was not the first to do this, but soon became the theory’s pre-eminent advocate.) As you can imagine, it was roundly attacked by both traditional Japanese linguists and at least one famous Tamil scholar.

Muneo Tokunaga, the latter, denounced Ohno’s ignorance of Tamil in 1981 and wrote, “I find absolutely no scholarly value in the Ohno theory.”

But Susumu Ohno, now 89 years old, has persisted, last year publishing with Iwanami Shoten his book “Nihongo no Genryu wo Motomete (Seeking the Origins of the Japanese Language).” Ohno claims that many common Japanese words come from Tamil. He concentrates on so-called “Yamato kotoba,” or Japanese words that were in use before the introduction of the Chinese writing system. These words, according to Ohno, lend a depth to the emotional culture and the richness of the nonrational sensibility of the Japanese. He states, by quoting relevant cognates, that the following words are originally from Tamil: tanoshii (pleasant); yasashii (gentle); nikoniko (with a smile); tsuya (luster); sabishii (lonely); kanashii (sad); aware (misery); and even the now ubiquitous kawaii (adorable).

That’s a lot of sensibility in anybody’s book.

Ohno further asserts that some Japanese words for colors are borrowed from Tamil. These include the words for red, blue, black and white. Ordinary verbs such as hanasu (talk), iu (say), and sakebu (scream); the words for “thing,” mono and koto; parts of the body such as atama (head), kao (face) and ha (tooth); illnesses such as boke (dementia) — these apparently have similar sounds in Tamil.

Ohno strengthens his argument with comparisons in grammar, pointing to a similar absence of relative pronouns, a likeness in word order and a striking resemblance in the languages’ rhythms.

Now, one can find a host of similarities in totally unrelated languages. This simply attests to the fact that there are only a certain number of sounds that the human being can produce and that syntactic features are bound to overlap.

Russian has neither a definite nor an indefinite article, just like Japanese. This is merely coincidence. And, though I know no Tamil whatsoever, some of Ohno’s examples do appear stretched. I might take the Japanese word for bath, furo, and explain that in ancient times baths were dug into the ground. The English word “furrow” represents this to a T. Again, coincidence. Some of Ohno’s examples are of this variety. For example, he claims that the Japanese dialectal word maru, indicating urination, derives from the Tamil mal, which means the same. The Tamil word for belly button, pot-u, he believes, gave Japanese its heso.

His argument goes further than language.

“The changes brought about by the introduction of rice-paddy cultivation, the use of iron and the loom occurred in the Yayoi Period,” Ohno writes in “Seeking the Origins of the Japanese Language.” By analyzing words associated with these practices, he claims that they were introduced by Tamils who traveled the 7,000-odd kilometers from their home to Japan during the Yayoi Period two millenniums ago.

He brings up various ancient Japanese customs, such as those connected with planting, religious rituals and even nuptial rites. This is where Ohno, an acknowledged expert on Japanese classical literature, is perhaps on the most stable ground. In ancient times, a man courting a woman would visit her home for three days in a row. On the third day, her offering him a rice cake symbolized official recognition of her acceptance. This is referred to in the 11th-century Japanese classic “The Tale of Genji” as mikka no mochi, or “the rice cake on the third day.”

Ohno points to a similar ancient custom that is practiced in regions of India where Dravidian languages are spoken. Again coincidence? Perhaps. Given that there is no way — and there is likely never to be a way — to prove these things, such intriguing coincidence is all one may have to go on.

Words related to religion display similarities in the two languages as well. Kami (god) and agaru (to step up) are two of these. If Ohno is correct, then the popular notion that the kami meaning “god” derives from the kami meaning “above” is wrong.

Ohno does not dispute the influence of Polynesian languages, but places it earlier than that of Tamil. I am not convinced, however, by his thesis that the soft vowels of the Kansai dialect are the result of this South Seas invasion.

One has to admire Susumu Ohno for sticking to his guns. The Tamil-origin theory of Yamato kotoba is not one subscribed to by many scholars. With this book, he has indicated his desire to prove his theory with a feisty insistence.

But, whether Ohno is right or wrong, “the war of the origins” is bound to go on for a long, long time. Linguists love a good fight, and this one is as good as they get. The fact that there may never be an outcome merely adds to the furious excitement and the schadenfreude that experts derive from it.


Was the Japanese language influenced by Tamil? The war goes on | The Japan Times
 
Last edited:
.
A post of mine from today on a different thread:


The word Aryan while meaning nobility was used in a very limited sense in the Rig veda. The Rig veda itself is a book where the only the 5 principal "lunar" tribes are mentioned, one of the most important tribes in India, the Ikshvakus (of Rama fame) barely get a mention in because they are a "solar" tribe. Even among the "Chandravanshis", the Rig veda is primarily a book of the Purus & more specifically of the Bharatas, a sub-tribe of the Purus. In the Rig veda, the word "Aryan" is used almost exclusively with the Bharatas, in essence it was what a particular tribe called themselves (not a whole bunch of invaders/immigrants). Over time as their influence spread, this was to extend, like the book itself, to a much larger area, eventually encompassing a large geographical area which was called Aryavarta (abode of the Aryans). It also the same case of how the word Bharat (from the pre-Rig vedic king of the Bharatas) was to expand itself to mean the whole area south of the Himalayas (from east of the Indus) till the ocean by the time of the Mahabharata.


So in other words, tho the term Aryan used to refer to only the Bharatas, in time, as their clout influenced the whole region, would be applied for the greater (larger) population, yes?
 
.
@Nihonjin1051 Forget the thread derailing culprit, please post something about Japanese tea ceremonies and how I can get a geisha of my own :smitten:
 
.
So in other words, tho the term Aryan used to refer to only the Bharatas, in time, as their clout influenced the whole region, would be applied for the greater (larger) population, yes?


That was how it must have happened, The Bharatas ruled a small area around the Indian state of Haryana at the time of the Rig veda but the name they chose for themselves (after their great pre-Rig vedic king Bharat) is now the name for the Indian state and the great Indian epic is the Maha(great) Bharat -Mahabharat. The Rig veda, the most ancient holy book of Hindus is essentially (for the most part) their book.
 
.
Now a days Rajnikant spreading cultural ties between both the nations.
main-qimg-08a95baac7ea9024815c511720551640.jpeg
 
.
That was how it must have happened, The Bharatas ruled a small area around the Indian state of Haryana at the time of the Rig veda but the name they chose for themselves (after their great pre-Rig vedic king Bharat) is now the name for the Indian state and the great Indian epic is the Maha(great) Bharat -Mahabharat. The Rig veda, the most ancient holy book of Hindus is essentially (for the most part) their book.

Its always interesting to see the commonalities between the genesis of Indian Civilization and Japanese Civilization, despite the dichotomies in cultural practices. As per the Rig Veda , and in the epic Mahaharat, it tells of the identity of one group assuming preeminence / dominance over the the rest. This is similar as well in Japan's own National Epic known as the Nihon Shoki , which tells and documents of the arrival of the Yayoi (Mongoloid peoples from what is now present day Zheijiang Region of China and Korea) into the Japanese Archipelago about 3000 years ago. At the time of the Yayoi's arrival into what is now Japan, the Japanese Archipelago was already populated by a totally alien people (compared to the Yayoi) as the proto-Japanese were the Jomon people (Caucasoid-like people). The Yayoi , at first, kept to themselves and their massive numbers were once isolated into small city states in the Western part of Honshu Island , but within time, they eventually subsumed the Jomon civilization into their own. They adopted Jomon rice terracing techniques, and war-culture.

Thus the formation of the Japanese Identity; the union of two groups of people: the Mongoloid Yayoi and the Cauasoid Jomon.
 
.
If you guys are truly interested I took a course in Mahabharata but the beginning of the course we dealt with IVC. Please read these two academic articles I have from my course, they are opposing views.
 

Attachments

  • 2.Flood-AncientOrigins.pdf
    370.9 KB · Views: 16
  • 3.Klostermaier-Arguments.pdf
    847.2 KB · Views: 20
.
Even to this day, there are Japanese with strong Jomon features:

f9dsg5.png


This is a 100% PURE Japanese, tho his features are more Jomon Japanese.
 
.
Its always interesting to see the commonalities between the genesis of Indian Civilization and Japanese Civilization, despite the dichotomies in cultural practices. As per the Rig Veda , and in the epic Mahaharat, it tells of the identity of one group assuming preeminence / dominance over the the rest. This is similar as well in Japan's own National Epic known as the Nihon Shoki , which tells and documents of the arrival of the Yayoi (Mongoloid peoples from what is now present day Zheijiang Region of China and Korea) into the Japanese Archipelago about 3000 years ago. At the time of the Yayoi's arrival into what is now Japan, the Japanese Archipelago was already populated by a totally alien people (compared to the Yayoi) as the proto-Japanese were the Jomon people (Caucasoid-like people). The Yayoi , at first, kept to themselves and their massive numbers were once isolated into small city states in the Western part of Honshu Island , but within time, they eventually subsumed the Jomon civilization into their own. They adopted Jomon rice terracing techniques, and war-culture.

Thus the formation of the Japanese Identity; the union of two groups of people: the Mongoloid Yayoi and the Cauasoid Jomon.
Maybe thats why Japanese + Indian = Caucasoid as there are latent caucasoid genes in Japanese gene mix.
 
.
Lets talk about Buddhism.

Buddhism went Japan and it evolve into a very different form. The Zen Buddhism which help the Bushi to be brave. Some Japanese monk also engage in fcuking to enlightenment.

I believe China used to have sex buddhism but Han Chinese prude cannot accept it. It got extinct in China. But in Japan sex monk are revered.

Ikkyū - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What you called sex budhism was practiced in China and it did not become extinct, it was incorporated as a practice of Taoism and its still practiced today (and particularly well known in the west, just search for Mantak Chia).
 
. .
What you called sex budhism was practiced in China and it did not become extinct, it was incorporated as a practice of Taoism and its still practiced today (and particularly well known in the west, just search for Mantak Chia).

Chinese has own Sex Taoism not unlike the sex Buddhism. But it cannot be so open.
 
.
Its always interesting to see the commonalities between the genesis of Indian Civilization and Japanese Civilization, despite the dichotomies in cultural practices. As per the Rig Veda , and in the epic Mahaharat, it tells of the identity of one group assuming preeminence / dominance over the the rest.

The Rig veda itself does not talk about any dominance, that spread would take place over a much longer period after the Rig veda was composed. Hinduism was a joining in & an evolution of many ideas & beliefs (the Rig veda was but a part) which took place over a substantial period of time. It is an assimilation, an amalgamation even, not a dominance.
 
.

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom