27 Feb 19: PAF shot down two Indian aircrafts inside Pakistani airspace: DG ISPR

[Flight of falcon]

This is what we have already given up:

1. Material support to the Kashmir cause. The PTI government will only make ineffective, feel good noises and Modi understands this.

2. Further acceptance and confirmation by our top leadership that we have terrorist groups and we need to do more.

3. Not even a whimper in the Security Council about India's aggression against us. In today's world, unilateral action against another state is the purvey of a very closed group of powers such as America, France, and Russia. India just joined that club. Look around and see what happens when you are aggressive outside the boundaries of your own country. Saddam Hussain is gone. Iran has America knocking on its doorstep. Russia has had CAATSA imposed on it. Yet not a single word against India. Instead, France, Britain, and America stood shoulder to shoulder with India to once again show Pakistan in a bad light. The matter of Maulana Masood Azhar is a bilateral issue between Pakistan and India. But siding with India to declare him a global terrorist, these powers have openly declared support for Indian narrative, despite blatant Indian aggression.

4. Terror attack happens in India, it attacks Pakistan. Terror attack happens in Pakistan against Navy and PAF personnel, and no action against India. And to add salt to injury, on the one hand Indian foreign minister speaks to SMQ, and on the other hand Modi gives cold shoulder to IK in his swearing in ceremony. And your PM is making excuses that it's just Indian politics. I have said this before: no shame amongst the shameless, no indignity amongst the dishonorable.

And I can tell you what is the root cause of all this. India has you by the balls in FATF. This terrorist nation that sent Kalbhushan Jadhav, is sitting in the APG, deciding whether Pakistan has done enough against terrorist financing.

Here is what could be done differently. After Feb 27 when world leaders tried to diffuse tensions, we should have labelled India as an aggressor and demanded a declaration of truce by India. We should then have made the case that this nation is irresponsible and a war monger, and has no place in prestigious bodies such as FATF.

But we have a lame duck, impotent leadership who are mentally subjugated in front of their Western masters. They just have to say "Jump" and our leadership asks "How high?". That's the real problem.

The whole premises of your argument is flawed.

Let’s be clear about few things.
Pakistan is in no shape politically or diplomatically to achieve anything because of our past criminal mismanagement on both fronts.

Indians could not have wished for any thing better than what they got in the last 10 years of democrazy in Pakistan.
They had their friends in Nawaz and Zardari to destroy Pakistan from inside. A bafoon name Nawaz Sharif was the foreign minister for the last five years. As uneducated and unimpressive he is he had his own vested interests in not fighting any diplomatic war against India.
And what could he really do? Americans and British hold files on him of all his corrupt deals, bank accounts and properties everywhere in the world. Could he possibly say anything against the best wishes of our enemies? Same goes for Zardari.

Thank God we have a man in charge who is a visionary, respected through out the world and the best diplomat face one could Ask for.

When you have senator Lindsey Graham singing praises you know Trump is listening. He has no files and secrets that our enemies can use.

India in its own might hold diplomatic and economic superiority over us. We may never achieve their level of influence due to their sheer size but we can hold our own if we have capable diplomats and leadership.

Kashmir cannot be won with force. As a Kashmiri I see a disaster if one tries to.
This government and military leadership is the right combination to deliver and we showed them in Feb. Mind you the crisis happened because militancy in Kashmir is increasing by locals, population turned hostile and Pakistani government raising Kashmir at every forum possible. This government is free from Kashmir committee Mulah haramkhour and is doing some real work.

The fact is that most militant groups have long outlived their usefulness for us. Today the world has changed. Diplomatically you have to show you are not linked with any organization not controlled by the government.

How does it look when an attack launched outside Pakistan is accepted by a spokesperson sitting inside Pakistan and openly claiming they carried out the attack.
Indians are behind all the terrorist attacks inside Pakistan but I have never known of any one calling news channels and accepting responsibility while sitting in India.

This is the big difference .

For the freedom war to achieve anything people sitting in Kashmir must fight and accept responsibility. Pakistan can provide logistics and support but not platform to issue press releases from.

Knowing where you belong, realize your weaknesses and address issues causing world to look away from us is better than over estimating our position in the world and making empty noise and threats that no one will listen to.

 

[Smoke]

This is what we have already given up:

1. Material support to the Kashmir cause. The PTI government will only make ineffective, feel good noises and Modi understands this.

2. Further acceptance and confirmation by our top leadership that we have terrorist groups and we need to do more.

3. Not even a whimper in the Security Council about India's aggression against us. In today's world, unilateral action against another state is the purvey of a very closed group of powers such as America, France, and Russia. India just joined that club. Look around and see what happens when you are aggressive outside the boundaries of your own country. Saddam Hussain is gone. Iran has America knocking on its doorstep. Russia has had CAATSA imposed on it. Yet not a single word against India. Instead, France, Britain, and America stood shoulder to shoulder with India to once again show Pakistan in a bad light. The matter of Maulana Masood Azhar is a bilateral issue between Pakistan and India. But siding with India to declare him a global terrorist, these powers have openly declared support for Indian narrative, despite blatant Indian aggression.

4. Terror attack happens in India, it attacks Pakistan. Terror attack happens in Pakistan against Navy and PAF personnel, and no action against India. And to add salt to injury, on the one hand Indian foreign minister speaks to SMQ, and on the other hand Modi gives cold shoulder to IK in his swearing in ceremony. And your PM is making excuses that it's just Indian politics. I have said this before: no shame amongst the shameless, no indignity amongst the dishonorable.

And I can tell you what is the root cause of all this. India has you by the balls in FATF. This terrorist nation that sent Kalbhushan Jadhav, is sitting in the APG, deciding whether Pakistan has done enough against terrorist financing.

Here is what could be done differently. After Feb 27 when world leaders tried to diffuse tensions, we should have labelled India as an aggressor and demanded a declaration of truce by India. We should then have made the case that this nation is irresponsible and a war monger, and has no place in prestigious bodies such as FATF.

But we have a lame duck, impotent leadership who are mentally subjugated in front of their Western masters. They just have to say "Jump" and our leadership asks "How high?". That's the real problem.

Your points are very valid, but war requires money and we do not have money. If we had $10 trillion USD, I can assure you that WE would be the monkeys firing and jumping in the air, and India would be scurrying around like a rat.

 

[Flight of falcon]

Iqbal said:

Wai nakami mata'-e-karwaan jata raha
Karwaan keh dil say ehsaas-e-ziyan jata raha

At this point I am lamenting the 'ehsaas-e-ziyan jata raha' part. I don't understand. How can we turn a blind eye to a glaring truth that is staring us in the face? And try to find any excuses to keep our heads buried in the ground!

Your land was attacked in violation of international law. You now have two separate rights: the right to attack back in retaliation, and the right to take the offender to the security council, get him declared an aggressor, and have the international community sanction him. Your valiant forces upheld the first right, whereas your lame P.M. is guilty of treason for making a complete joke out of your fundamental right.

And you are so advanced in blind following, that you think a declaration of truce means giving up Kashmir. Did you give up Kashmir by signing the dotted line in 71? You are victorious and you dictate the terms of the truce. I mean we are so impotent as a nation, we don't even understand how to seal our own victory. No wonder your lame P.M. is the stalwart saint of transgenders. Go get the operation done and comb the roads clapping both hands together in impotence.

Yes we at the stalemate with no real solution in sight but starting a war is totally stupid. Your ghairat will not pay billions in losses. We did tremendous job and responded proportionally. Yes we were attacked and we attacked back and won.
Now your point of going to the security council is funny. Americans, French and British had issued statements right after the attack supporting Indian right to attack. Russia being on their side what is the point you see going to UN security council?
Start a war? I leave it to your wonderful imagination of horses crossing the border and fighting Indians. We should reserve the war when it’s ansolutely necessary. As I said you don’t start a war over a failed airstrike which you have already responded proportionally and obtained desired results.

 

[Army research]

Iqbal said:

Wai nakami mata'-e-karwaan jata raha
Karwaan keh dil say ehsaas-e-ziyan jata raha

At this point I am lamenting the 'ehsaas-e-ziyan jata raha' part. I don't understand. How can we turn a blind eye to a glaring truth that is staring us in the face? And try to find any excuses to keep our heads buried in the ground!

Your land was attacked in violation of international law. You now have two separate rights: the right to attack back in retaliation, and the right to take the offender to the security council, get him declared an aggressor, and have the international community sanction him. Your valiant forces upheld the first right, whereas your lame P.M. is guilty of treason for making a complete joke out of your fundamental right.

And you are so advanced in blind following, that you think a declaration of truce means giving up Kashmir. Did you give up Kashmir by signing the dotted line in 71? You are victorious and you dictate the terms of the truce. I mean we are so impotent as a nation, we don't even understand how to seal our own victory. No wonder your lame P.M. is the stalwart saint of transgenders. Go get the operation done and comb the roads clapping both hands together in impotence.

You honestly think the UN is a big deal ? The UN is Nothing , more useless than the OIC

 

[Flight of falcon]

You honestly think the UN is a big deal ? The UN is Nothing , more useless than the OIC

Going to UN will allow world
Powers to gang up on us and we will get nothing except to find out what we already know. We have no friends in the west. Heck we once had a hair piece wearing ambassador in America working for CIA who now teaches and preaches anti Pakistan courses in Washington.

 

[TsAr]

The only thing that can keep the kashmiri cause alive is kashmiri's themselves. They have to fight and resist the Indian forces. We as Pakistani's can only support them but the kashmiri's have to stand up for their just cause.

 

[araz]

The whole premises of your argument is flawed.

Let’s be clear about few things.
Pakistan is in no shape politically or diplomatically to achieve anything because of our past criminal mismanagement on both fronts.

Indians could not have wished for any thing better than what they got in the last 10 years of democrazy in Pakistan.
They had their friends in Nawaz and Zardari to destroy Pakistan from inside. A bafoon name Nawaz Sharif was the foreign minister for the last five years. As uneducated and unimpressive he is he had his own vested interests in not fighting any diplomatic war against India.
And what could he really do? Americans and British hold files on him of all his corrupt deals, bank accounts and properties everywhere in the world. Could he possibly say anything against the best wishes of our enemies? Same goes for Zardari.

Thank God we have a man in charge who is a visionary, respected through out the world and the best diplomat face one could Ask for.

When you have senator Lindsey Graham singing praises you know Trump is listening. He has no files and secrets that our enemies can use.

India in its own might hold diplomatic and economic superiority over us. We may never achieve their level of influence due to their sheer size but we can hold our own if we have capable diplomats and leadership.

Kashmir cannot be won with force. As a Kashmiri I see a disaster if one tries to.
This government and military leadership is the right combination to deliver and we showed them in Feb. Mind you the crisis happened because militancy in Kashmir is increasing by locals, population turned hostile and Pakistani government raising Kashmir at every forum possible. This government is free from Kashmir committee Mulah haramkhour and is doing some real work.

The fact is that most militant groups have long outlived their usefulness for us. Today the world has changed. Diplomatically you have to show you are not linked with any organization not controlled by the government.

How does it look when an attack launched outside Pakistan is accepted by a spokesperson sitting inside Pakistan and openly claiming they carried out the attack.
Indians are behind all the terrorist attacks inside Pakistan but I have never known of any one calling news channels and accepting responsibility while sitting in India.

This is the big difference .

For the freedom war to achieve anything people sitting in Kashmir must fight and accept responsibility. Pakistan can provide logistics and support but not platform to issue press releases from.

Knowing where you belong, realize your weaknesses and address issues causing world to look away from us is better than over estimating our position in the world and making empty noise and threats that no one will listen to.

Barring the Lindsey Green comment I cannot agree with you more. Your statement about the need for the Kashmir struggle to be an indegenous effort with local populace being actively involved is pivotal to the settlement if the issue. Paklands involvement takes all the legitimacy away from this genuine internal struggle by assigning an external factor and therefore legitimising the notion that this is instigated from outside.
Pakistan has tried the inciting the uprising route to disasterous consequences and lost 3000(?) men in the bargain plus 50 Curore Rupees that went into the pockets of the local leadership and to no benefit of the people. So to try this foolish approach again will almost always lead to the same results and give legitimacy to Indian aggression against the innocent Kashmiris. Crass as it may sound this is the only way for the people to get their just results from this struggle.
A

 

[thinkingcap81]

Assuming the Amraam exploded into Chaff - where the heck did the Su go?
Did he just run at burner all the way back to Halwara, slam onto the runway and straight to the bathroom to let it go?
Amusing ideas aside, even if there is no Su kill; being able to take air superiority from a technologically superior force is an achievement in its own right.

However, based on what I heard from here and other places.. suffice to say the entire IAF is back to the drawing board for their ASR.

The battle was too localised and hence gives PAF enough opportunity to achieve local superiority - this is a no-brainer. What is important is the desire and/or compulsions to achieve this effect, and the consequent implications of this desire. For the short term effect one must appreciate PAF.

On our side it is good if IAF and out govt are forced to address critical shortcomings or reorient strategies. Subcontinent folks are not much good in imagining the overall picture - we fall flat pretty soon.

 

[Falcon26]

The battle was too localised and hence gives PAF enough opportunity to achieve local superiority - this is a no-brainer. What is important is the desire and/or compulsions to achieve this effect, and the consequent implications of this desire. For the short term effect one must appreciate PAF.

On our side it is good if IAF and out govt are forced to address critical shortcomings or reorient strategies. Subcontinent folks are not much good in imagining the overall picture - we fall flat pretty soon.

Remember pre-27th feb claims of SU-30s and S-300 not allowing PAF jets anywhere near Indian airspace let alone carry out punitive attacks within Indian territory and with impunity?

 

[thinkingcap81]

Remember pre-27th feb claims of SU-30s and S-300 not allowing PAF jets anywhere near Indian airspace let alone carry out punitive attacks within Indian territory and with impunity?

Well, as per reports PAF aircraft did not enter physically enter Indian airspace, they sent H4s from your side of the border. IAF Mig-21 entered your airspace.

We need to understand that all of us claim certain things - the threat of being able to carry out that claim with impunity is another issue. You guys also said that your nuclear deterrence is enough to ensure that nothing will happen. Indian armed forces devise strategies to counter this, and needs the govt. to give the go-ahead for a relatively bigger operation.

 

[Falcon26]

Well, as per reports PAF aircraft did not enter physically enter Indian airspace, they sent H4s from your side of the border. IAF Mig-21 entered your airspace.

We need to understand that all of us claim certain things - the threat of being able to carry out that claim with impunity is another issue. You guys also said that your nuclear deterrence is enough to ensure that nothing will happen. Indian armed forces devise strategies to counter this, and needs the govt. to give the go-ahead for a relatively bigger operation.

Lol not my airspace as I am not a Pakistani!

India is on record saying PAF entered its territory. Pakistan’s deference worked as intended. PAF retaliated and put India in its place. Your country couldn’t respond. Pakistan landed the last blow which validates Pakistan’s deterrence. Modi’s missile strike threat was killed as soon as it was uttered.

 

[Hamza913]

People are still discussing this....

 

[Mig hunter]

India has won diplomatically despite getting defeated militarily. On top of that, they now have a better understanding of our capability and their own weaknesses. They will also revise their previous misconceptions about the potency of some of the OEMs from which we buy. They will make inroads into these organizations and try to get information on backdoors etc. The world is open to India for buying equipment, whereas we only have a limited number of suppliers.

Dear sir, it isn't a one way traffic. If they are making up for their deficiencies so are we. Remember with in 1st wk of incident, there was at least a rumor about purchase of PL 15.either it was due to the advantage of AMRAAM on 27 Feb as being spoken by Indians themselves or it was pre-planned.

 

[CriticalThought]

Dear sir, it isn't a one way traffic. If they are making up for their deficiencies so are we. Remember with in 1st wk of incident, there was at least a rumor about purchase of PL 15.either it was due to the advantage of AMRAAM on 27 Feb as being spoken by Indians themselves or it was pre-planned.

Until and unless we move towards indigenization and grounds up learning of modern technology, the international coalition of America, Israel, France, Britain, and India is going to rule us. They are squeezing from every aspect: financial, military equipment, political. In response, we are increasingly an uneducated, non-technical nation who look to foreign suppliers for even the most basic needs. And our leaders are either agents of these foreign powers or total mental slaves. They don't even have the vision to make Pakistan a true World Power that can hold its own against any other nation in the world. There is no focus on education, no focus on creating an industrial base. Your businessmen don't want to be world leaders. Your bureaucracy doesn't want to be competitive. The best this current government has is imparting technical knowledge as part of CPEC projects. But here is the key thing: when you yourself don't have the vision to be a leader, you are incapable of charting the path towards leadership, you are not going to become a leader just because of some CPEC projects. It's now a decade since manufacturing of JF-17 started. We still don't have the infrastructure to imagine a new design, perform wind tunnel tests locally, create test rigs for various components. And Project Azm, at least from the details that we know today, seems to suffer the same lack of focus as the Indian Kaveri and Tejas. I am increasingly disheartened by this state of affairs.

 

[airomerix]

The battle was too localised and hence gives PAF enough opportunity to achieve local superiority - this is a no-brainer. What is important is the desire and/or compulsions to achieve this effect, and the consequent implications of this desire. For the short term effect one must appreciate PAF.

Allow me to address your ignorance.

lol. PAF has been deterring IAF threats all along the entire border for your kind and incomplete information.

Since 27th, there have been more than 30 attempts by IAF all along the border with sizeable formations to attempt ingress in Pakistan which have been thwarted successfully. This throws your argument of localised air superiority out of the window.

Every now and then, your Su-30's and Mirages are hiding behind commercial airliners going north and try to be clever. You dont even know what you're talking about.

On our side it is good if IAF and out govt are forced to address critical shortcomings or reorient strategies. Subcontinent folks are not much good in imagining the overall picture - we fall flat pretty soon.

Good. 27th was like a piece of cake. Nearly took the honour out of the battle. Nearly.