Zia ul Haq my grandfather

[Zarvan]

I am not being selective in definition. Ummat concept starts at home, and then goes out. Home is priority. First one must set their home in order and then go out. This i mentioned in the "time to abandon ummah thread" .

Because abandoning the concept of Ummat is abandoning Islam. It is rejecting Allah's Speech. I cannot believe Pakistani Muslims are talking like this on PDF. @Zarvan because it is the same as if one was allowing alcohol in Islam. Ummah concept rejectors in Turkey have no shame in drinking and promoting alcohol and other vice either.

The christian/hindu/shia/sunni/qadyani/ismaili/sikh pakistanis are more dear to you because they are a part of your family in close proximity. They live in your land and you feel a sense of responsibility. They are home. And home is the first responsibility in Ummat. This is a false comparison you are making between home and other Muslim majority countries.

Ummat includes your immediate and extended family first. One cannot say the families 10 villages away are more dear to you than your own family or own village family. People will think of this to be crazy. If you are a Punjabi from Lahore, then it makes less sense to say that unknown families in Peshawar are more dear to you than related families in Lahore.

Ummat is a religious concept proven from Qur'an and Sunnat. God Himself has spoken about it, and Rasool e Paak salamullah alaih has mentioned in numerous Sahih Ahadith. He made the concept himself in Madina Munawarah and during the conquest of Makkah Mukararmah

I agree those who deny Ummah are doing kufr because they deny ayats off Quran basically

 

[rockstar08]

Please note how we were treated by the Americans during Ayub Khans time or even before and how we were treated after Zias time. You can see what kind of equipment we we getting before we became a punching bag. Plus if you for a second think the Americans gave us any help building the nuclear bomb you could follow the links to previous posts of how even Zia lied to keep the weapon a secret.

the thing is in Ayub time we have no intentions to have a N bomb . world dont a fcuk about a conventional military power , but when we started our N program , look how worlds opinion change about us , and they start looking at us as threat ... you agree or not , it does happen because of ZIA but N program ... and USA have no problem , all problem exist in india and Israel

 

[forcetrip]

the thing is in Ayub time we have no intentions to have a N bomb . world dont a fcuk about a conventional military power , but when we started our N program , look how worlds opinion change about us , and they start looking at us as threat ... you agree or not , it does happen because of ZIA but N program ... and USA have no problem , all problem exist in india and Israel

The world had a problem with people having nuclear weapons except for the select few who already had it. We had our nuclear program in the works since the 70's. It was known by the Americans when they were close allies to us. The extent of our program was vague at best till the time the bombs were detonated by India and Pakistan. The threat part is correct because we were the first third world warring countries that attained this destructive power. We were scolded more because we were accused of selling tech know how of that same bomb to two other deeply disliked countries. The US had no problem with Zia and worked well with dictators in those times. Wouldn't there be some reason that after Zia relations started to get from bad to worse?
I still do not understand why it would have a problem with Israel having a nuclear weapon because they are probably US made to begin with. The over sight it will have on those would be far greater than either of our countries. You want to be a US ally like Israel? Its not a matter of religious discrimination at all. Those choices can be made with similar results. But if you feel this country deserves a free hand out like Israel, then do things like Israel. Till then we can be happy that at least our $20b trade deficit a year is being supplemented by the US so we do not self implode.

 

[Panther 57]

On the lighter side. Whenever I see this thread there is a new name with the title "Zia my grand father" I fail to understand whose grand father he is. So better put the name of actual grandson in the title.

 

[syedali73]

I still do not understand why it would have a problem with Israel having a nuclear weapon because they are probably US made to begin with.

It was France who helped to build a nuclear reactor and a reprocessing plant in Israel at Dimona. Some info can be found here: BBC NEWS | Middle East | Vanunu: Israel's nuclear telltale

 

[forcetrip]

It was France who helped to build a nuclear reactor and a reprocessing plant in Israel at Dimona. Some info can be found here: BBC NEWS | Middle East | Vanunu: Israel's nuclear telltale

Quite correct. There were a few ups and downs within that deal as time went on in the mid 60's. Overall I was giving a general statement of US backing.

 

[syedali73]

Quite correct. There were a few ups and downs within that deal as time went on in the mid 60's. Overall I was giving a general statement of US backing.

Your assertions are correct actually. It is interesting though that during her earlier years, it was not US but France and Britain that supported Israel the most, both politically, and militarily. This collaboration reached to its peak during the Suez crisis, when the trio (France, Britain, and Israel) attacked Egypt whereas US did not intervene (perhaps to the amazement of many members here).

 

[forcetrip]

Your assertions are correct actually. It is interesting though that during her earlier years, it was not US but France and Britain that supported Israel the most, both politically, and militarily. This collaboration reached to its peak during the Suez crisis, when the trio (France, Britain, and Israel) attacked Egypt whereas US did not intervene (perhaps to the amazement of many members here).

US was not as pro Israeli and European back then. The interesting fact would be the tussle of how the Israelis kept stalling and tricking the US when Dimona was being built after they were given access to the reactor.

 

[syedali73]

US was not as pro Israeli and European back then. The interesting fact would be the tussle of how the Israelis kept stalling and tricking the US when Dimona was being built after they were given access to the reactor.

True, because most Americans (mostly White Anglo-Saxon Protestant or WASP) never liked Jews despite the mass migration of the Jews during the 2nd world war. However, Jews have contributed greatly towards the economical, scientific, and social development of the US, and earned a place of respect for themselves.

 

[Metanoia]

After the WW2 ended...the Jews who were already well integrated in the European society(despite racism) could very easily returned back to their respective homes and moved on with their lives.

Don't know why they chose to form their own state out of Europe? Maybe the Brits and the French didn't want them in Europe?

 

[Jaanbaz]

After the WW2 ended...the Jews who were already well integrated in the European society(despite racism) could very easily returned back to their respective homes and moved on with their lives.

Don't know why they chose to form their own state out of Europe? Maybe the Brits and the French didn't want them in Europe?

Probably True.

 

[Musafir117]

Bhukto na NS and group his spiritual son, the worst ever thing happen to Pakistan.

 

[Pakistani E]

And still you follow a liar Mirza

The topic of discussion of this thread is Zia ul haq and his extremist spiritual children. The fact that you couldn't prove me wrong about what I said and instead launched a random salvo shows that you have no answer to what I said. So you are indirectly accepting you proudly follow a liar and a hypocrite (according to the hadith).

Well done Maulvi sahib, the likes of you show to me everyday how fortunate I am to be a born Ahmadi and not a sarkari muslim.

What you are saying is not true, and shows your ignorance of Pakistani Muslims.

Mr TUQ is not held in high regard by any major religious organization in Pakistan except of his own. He is rejected by most Sunnis in Pakistan as a liar, and most Shia Muslims, Ahle Hadith, and Deobandi scholars.

Look what a Pakistani Shia Scholar says about TUQ

Ignorance? Lol. I am not even talking about TuQ. I was talking about Zia ul Haq. What are you talking randomly for? The fact that you didn't even read what I wrote shows that you just jumped on my comment instead of even reading it.

Ignorance....yeh..I can see it.

 

[rockstar08]

The world had a problem with people having nuclear weapons except for the select few who already had it. We had our nuclear program in the works since the 70's. It was known by the Americans when they were close allies to us. The extent of our program was vague at best till the time the bombs were detonated by India and Pakistan. The threat part is correct because we were the first third world warring countries that attained this destructive power. We were scolded more because we were accused of selling tech know how of that same bomb to two other deeply disliked countries. The US had no problem with Zia and worked well with dictators in those times. Wouldn't there be some reason that after Zia relations started to get from bad to worse?
I still do not understand why it would have a problem with Israel having a nuclear weapon because they are probably US made to begin with. The over sight it will have on those would be far greater than either of our countries. You want to be a US ally like Israel? Its not a matter of religious discrimination at all. Those choices can be made with similar results. But if you feel this country deserves a free hand out like Israel, then do things like Israel. Till then we can be happy that at least our $20b trade deficit a year is being supplemented by the US so we do not self implode.

I probably think that Once Zia go out of USA hand , than they Took him out . Zia was hero in Afghan war , and lots of peoples and even PA consider him Mard-e-Mommin , i personally think if Zia remain in power or alive , he might try to convince the Afghan warlords to merge them into FATA , AKA Pakistan , sooner or later ..
now Israel is different case , one Israel leader or think tank , he once said that we have no threat from Arab , world .. but with Pakistan , they know that clearly that once Pakistan get N weapon , its just a matter of time that they will manage to make a ballistic missile that reach their land , and as far as religious factor is concern , i think after ZIA Israeli Jews might have more shiver in their pants ... there is no doubt that when it comes to Religion , a person do not even hesitate to commit national or worldwide suicide ...

Pakistan can never be a ally to US like Israel , because of many reason , but that not our topic, you also can not deny the fact of Jewish lobby that sit in US congress or Pentagon ... they move them like puppets .. i have talk to many many neutral Americans in my life , and all they said that Jews are most powerful religious group that exist in US ..

 

[ColeSlaw]

Is it wise to pile up the blame of 30 yrs of ignorance to 1 man?

Lets say he started it....Shouldnt 30 yrs of ignorant governance also be blamed for not being able to undo 1 man's job? Just shows how incompetent these 30yrs of govt was and still is...

Blaming is not the way...and if it is the way blame all the way not just 1 man!

@ Akheilos:

You are very right.