Zhuhai Air Show 2014 - Updates & Discussions

[Speeder 2]

the US and the UK dominate most of the world's engine tech.

Russia is far behind as the 2nd.

The Frenchies (largely thanks to the engine tech "donated" by the US) have even capabilities than the Ruskies.

The Chinese engine tech right now is about more than half the French's.

But China grows the fastest amongst all, because the Chinese industrialisation is perhaps the fastest ever, certainly the largest ever, in human history.

The rest of the EU (Germany etc) and Japan each have some piece meals, but not the whole deal as above countries.

In comparsion to this ranking order, India's engine tech is close to 0.

The best way to gauge a country's engine capability is to see its order in global heavy industry and hard science research rankings ( both production capabilities and sophtstications). Even a country is quite oke in the ranking, there will still be a big gap between the knowledge and the means (industrial techniques+human resources), in order to turn this knowledge into high quality mass - production reality. India is almost negligible in this global picture - meaning 0.

The rule of thumb is :

after India completes its first ever national indoor-plumbing system and maintains it well (meaning: the very first step of industrialisation and the 101 mentality behind it), then add 200 years , then you perhaps could expect something.

Therefore, you won't see a globally competitive engine made-by-India during your lifetime and your next life, easily.

 

[SvenSvensonov]

Official data on 2014 ZhuHai Air Show: China "TaiHang" WS-10A jet engine

View attachment 150620

Making great progress, that's for sure! But the one question I have is with the reliability of the engines. I see thrust output, but no service life, cost or maintenance hours. Russian engines have a lot of thrust too, but they are notoriously high maintenance and costly to maintain. Their service lives are short too. Is any info on the reliability public and has any been corroborated? Keep in mind, and I'm not saying this will be the case for China, but Russia has been in the engine business as long as the US has and they still haven't quite solved the reliability problems with their engines. China has money, intellect and the will to become a top-tier engine producer, but I'm wondering how fast progress can be made.

 

[Steakhouse]

Making great progress, that's for sure! But the one question I have is with the reliability of the engines. I see thrust output, but no service life, cost or maintenance hours. Russian engines have a lot of thrust too, but they are notoriously high maintenance and costly to maintain. Their service lives are short too. Is any info on the reliability public and has any been corroborated? Keep in mind, and I'm not saying this will be the case for China, but Russia has been in the engine business as long as the US has and they still haven't quite solved the reliability problems with their engines. China has money, intellect and the will to become a top-tier engine producer, but I'm wondering how fast progress can be made.

Jet engine development need time to mature, no nation speed up the process and mass produce the unreliable jet engine to power over millions dollars costly fighter jet. China is no exception, they need to patiently develop their engine with time consuming.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Making great progress, that's for sure! But the one question I have is with the reliability of the engines. I see thrust output, but no service life, cost or maintenance hours. Russian engines have a lot of thrust too, but they are notoriously high maintenance and costly to maintain. Their service lives are short too. Is any info on the reliability public and has any been corroborated? Keep in mind, and I'm not saying this will be the case for China, but Russia has been in the engine business as long as the US has and they still haven't quite solved the reliability problems with their engines. China has money, intellect and the will to become a top-tier engine producer, but I'm wondering how fast progress can be made.

The WS-10A so far has a good track record. With more than 100 J-11B being deployed and most PLAAF pilots being regularly trained around 200 hours annually. So far there is no single accident being involved with the WS-10A.

Its overhaul lifespan is well over 1000 hours, which means the whole lifespan is over 3000 hours.

The only problem we are facing now is the production rate, since we still don't have enough skillful assembly workers.

 

[cnleio]

Making great progress, that's for sure! But the one question I have is with the reliability of the engines. I see thrust output, but no service life, cost or maintenance hours. Russian engines have a lot of thrust too, but they are notoriously high maintenance and costly to maintain. Their service lives are short too. Is any info on the reliability public and has any been corroborated? Keep in mind, and I'm not saying this will be the case for China, but Russia has been in the engine business as long as the US has and they still haven't quite solved the reliability problems with their engines. China has money, intellect and the will to become a top-tier engine producer, but I'm wondering how fast progress can be made.

It's OKay now.

The WS-10A serving in frontline fighter wings ... like this year Auguest PLAN J-11BH fighter intercepted a USN P-8 in SCS ... the J-11BH installing 2x "black" WS-10A jet engines.

At least it means domestic WS-10A jet engine is combat duty now.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

the US and the UK dominate most of the world's engine tech.

Russia is far behind as the 2nd.

The Frenchies (largely thanks to the engine tech "donated" by the US) have even capabilities than the Ruskies.

The Chinese engine tech right now is about more than half the French's.

But China grows the fastest amongst all, because the Chinese industrialisation is perhaps the fastest ever, certainly the largest ever, in human history.

The rest of the EU (Germany etc) and Japan each have some piece meals, but not the whole deal as above countries.

In comparsion to this ranking order, India's engine tech is close to 0.

The best way to gauge a country's engine capability is to see its order in global heavy industry and hard science research rankings ( both production capabilities and sophtstications). Even a country is quite oke in the ranking, there will still be a big gap between the knowledge and the means (industrial techniques+human resources), in order to turn this knowledge into high quality mass - production reality. India is almost negligible in this global picture - meaning 0.

The rule of thumb is :

after India completes its first ever national indoor-plumbing system and maintains it well (meaning: the very first step of industrialisation and the 101 mentality behind it), then add 200 years , then you perhaps could expect something.

Therefore, you won't see a globally competitive engine made-by-India during your lifetime and your next life, easily.

This will be my last off-topic comment.

But I have to say that France is the weakest out of the P5 nations in term of the turbofan engine.

They haven't built a high thrust 4th gen jet engine like F110/AL-31/WS-10, while the UK has also not built one yet, but they are an exception with the jet engine/gas turbine power house like R&R.

So far France is dependent on the US on the turbofan jet engine, while China isn't.

France also hasn't produced a high thrust 4th gen jet engine yet, while China has.

So overall France simply doesn't deserve to rank above China in term of the jet engine.

 

[SvenSvensonov]

The WS-10A so far has a good track record. With more than 100 J-11B being deployed and most PLAAF pilots being regularly trained around 200 hours annually. So far there is no single accident being involved with the WS-10A.

Its overhaul lifespan is well over 1000 hours, which means the whole lifespan is over 3000 hours.

The only problem we are facing now is the production rate, since we still don't have enough skillful assembly workers.

So the overall lifespan is over 3000 hours? That's good! But what about the maintenance hours per flight hour. Remember, the lifespan isn't the only metric by which an engine is measured. For every hour in the air the aircraft and it's engines need many more being fine-tuned and tuned-up or else they will fail. Russian engines have this problem and are really hard and time consuming to maintain.

The engine might not fail, it could go 1000 straight without a problem, but it will still need to be maintained or problems will happen. US systems are the same way. For every hour our aircraft spend in flight, they need to spend several hours on the ground being maintained. The F-22 was reported to need 30 hours of maintenance time per flight hour early in its life (though those numbers have since dropped)!!!

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

So the overall lifespan is over 3000 hours? That's good! But what about the maintenance hours per flight hour. Remember, the lifespan isn't the only metric by which an engine is measured. For every hour in the air the aircraft and it's engines need many more being fine-tuned and tuned-up or else they will fail. Russian engines have this problem and are really hard and time consuming to maintain.

The engine might not fail, it could go 1000 straight without a problem, but it will still need to be maintained or problems will happen.

Yeah, we know this problem with the AL-31F, but we have managed to prolong the lifespan of the Russian engine when we have tried to maintain and to overhaul it by ourselves.

The factory 5719 has managed to do this. And to maintain and to overhaul the AL-31F engine will provide us a lot of valuable experience to perform the very same tasks for our domestic turbofan jet engines.

中国发动机已超越AL31F：达到西方80年代水平_网易新闻中心

Here is the CCTV's document about the WS-10 engine, and it has confirmed that the WS-10 engine has passed 1000 hours or over 40 days of non-stop ground test back in 2005.

 

[Donatello]

So the overall lifespan is over 3000 hours? That's good! But what about the maintenance hours per flight hour. Remember, the lifespan isn't the only metric by which an engine is measured. For every hour in the air the aircraft and it's engines need many more being fine-tuned and tuned-up or else they will fail. Russian engines have this problem and are really hard and time consuming to maintain.

The engine might not fail, it could go 1000 straight without a problem, but it will still need to be maintained or problems will happen. US systems are the same way. For every hour our aircraft spend in flight, they need to spend several hours on the ground being maintained. The F-22 was reported to need 30 hours of maintenance time per flight hour early in its life (though those numbers have since dropped)!!!

Sir, there was the Mig19 that Pakistan bought, and compared to using the US aircraft, Pakistan was sick and tired of the engines on Mig19, because their MTBF and MTBO was too short. But then there was a catch: The plane and engines were so cheap, you could throw them out and buy new one. I don't mean to suggest the same with new engines, China is at least 10 years away from building jet engines at the level of RR, PW,GE,SNECMA, KLIMOV etc, but even if they can provide the engine life for 1000hrs, that is good. If the engine is cheap, you can swap out. Engine change takes how many hours on an F-16? The main issue though is, reliability during operation. It must not fail during regular operation.

 

[Donatello]

China shows off new stealth fighter

Zhuhai (China) (AFP) - China's new stealth jet fighter rocketed skywards Wednesday as Beijing puts on an unprecedented display of openness -- and military force -- at the country's premier airshow.


The black J-31 rose in a nearly vertical climb on take-off in Zhuhai before circling back and doing two rolls, in the aircraft's first announced public appearance.

The plane's existence has been the subject of rumour and speculation for years, with photographs appearing increasingly frequently on military websites in recent months.

Defence analysts say the J-31 is China's answer to the United States' F-35, though the Chinese jet lags behind the American one technologically.

The fighter's Chinese name is "Falcon Eagle" and it is manufactured by a unit of Aviation Industry Corp. of China (AVIC), whose defence arm uses the slogan: "We are making the best weapons for guardians of the peace."

The plane's debut comes amid tensions between China and its neighbours over territorial disputes, particularly Japan which has feuded with Beijing over a group of islands in the East China Sea.

China's air force said the display of military might at the airshow showed the intention to build a strong country.

The People's Liberation Army (PLA) air force "will make unremitting efforts to realise dreams of a strong China and powerful armed forces", read a sign alongside an array of eight warplanes at the airshow.

"The display... demonstrates the strength and confidence of (the) PLA Air Force to fulfil missions and achieve world peace."

China has steadily increased its defence budget for years, with funding projected to rise more than 12 percent to $132 billion in 2014. But the US has accused Beijing of under-reporting its spending by as much as 20 percent in the past.

- 'Huge power' -



Defence analysts said China appears eager to sell the new fifth generation fighter abroad, also putting on display a model with a designation typically used for overseas destinations: FC-31.

"China's defence industry wants to show the potential for export," said Andrew Erickson, associate professor at the China Maritime Studies Institute of the US Naval War College.

Ally Pakistan is a likely first market, he added.

AVIC has already developed another fighter plane, the FC-1, in cooperation with Pakistan which was also on display at the show.

A large military transport plane, the Y-20, also made its debut at the show, flying lumbering turns over the crowd at its public outing on Wednesday.

"Of course, it is an advance in technology," said the announcer as spectators craned their necks to see it against a smoggy sky.

The China National Precision Machinery Import-Export Corp., the firm at the heart of controversy over the supply of a long-range anti-missile system to Turkey in the face of US opposition, also had a presence at the show, but its booth was devoid of product displays.

The firm, which is under US sanctions for selling arms and missile technology to Iran and Syria, declined to provide promotional materials or answer questions when approached by a journalist.

Although billed as an airshow, new sponsor China North Industries Corp (NORINCO) showed off a battle tank, the VT4, which proved a popular backdrop for visitor photos.

Other countries in the Asian region have beefed up military spending in response to China's growing power.

"It's a bit of a dance that happens all over the world," said Briand Greer, president of aerospace for Asia-Pacific at US conglomerate Honeywell.

"Economically everyone is tied to what happens in China," he said. "But at the same time, you’ve got a huge power rising right in your backyard so you don’t want to feel helpless."

Source:-
China shows off new stealth fighter - Yahoo News


So more and more people in the west are expecting J/FC31 in Pakistan.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Sir, there was the Mig19 that Pakistan bought, and compared to using the US aircraft, Pakistan was sick and tired of the engines on Mig19, because their MTBF and MTBO was too short. But then there was a catch: The plane and engines were so cheap, you could throw them out and buy new one. I don't mean to suggest the same with new engines, China is at least 10 years away from building jet engines at the level of RR, PW,GE,SNECMA, KLIMOV etc, but even if they can provide the engine life for 1000hrs, that is good. If the engine is cheap, you can swap out. Engine change takes how many hours on an F-16? The main issue though is, reliability during operation. It must not fail during regular operation.

Agree you with RR/PW/GE, also partially with Klimov, but not with Snecma.

We are the third nation who has successfully built the high thrust 4th gen jet engine after the US and Russia, even the UK hasn't done that, but I will still currently rank them above China due the powerhouse like RR.

The WS-10 is not inferior to F110 and AL-31 in its design and performance, just less mature due its the youngest 4th gen turbofan jet engine out there.

 

[Donatello]

Agree you with RR/PW/GE, also partially with Klimov, but not with Snecma.

We are the third nation who has successfully built the high thrust 4th gen jet engine after the US and Russia, even the UK has done that, but I will still currently rank them above China.

The WS-10 is not inferior to F110 and AL-31 in its design and performance, just less mature due its the youngest 4th gen turbofan jet engine out there.

Hi,

I am not talking about engine thrust, but reliability. An engine does me no good if it fails during critical flying modes. Reliability comes from metallurgy, otherwise the jet engine principles of operation have remain the same for 60 years.....suck squeeze bang blow. Same as the Otto cycle for car engines.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Hi,

I am not talking about engine thrust, but reliability. An engine does me no good if it fails during critical flying modes. Reliability comes from metallurgy, otherwise the jet engine principles of operation have remain the same for 60 years.....suck squeeze bang blow. Same as the Otto cycle for car engines.

The track record of our jet engine so far is good.

Our PLAAF pilots regularly fly with our J-11B for over 200 hours every year, so far no accident with involved with the engine failure.

And for 60 years? Tell me which kind of jet engine will serve more than 60 years?

 

[Donatello]

The track record of our jet engine so far is good.

Our PLAAF pilots regularly fly with our J-11B for over 200 hours every year, so far no accident with involved with the engine failure.

And for 60 years? Tell me which kind of jet engine will serve more than 60 years?

No i meant that the basics of a jet engine design are 60 years old.

 

[cirr]

We are talking about enginesThey have only one template to copy and its al-31f.

You are utterly and totally wrong。

I won't go into the details，but would tell you this：China is on the cusp of major breakthroughs in engine technologies。

Russian engines？lol！