Would Jinnah have lived as a Shia?

[Redbull]

Sir Leaving question of was Jinah a good Muslim or not to a side for some while Sir this issue that Jinah only want Muslims presentation this is funny Sir because when ever will you talk about Muslims Islam will come up with it you can't separate Islam from Muslims

Yes, prove differently, what else did he ever ask for apart from Muslim representation?

 

[Zarvan]

Yes, prove differently, what else did he ever ask for apart from Muslim representation?

Sir he asked for Muslim representation first but after he realized that this will never work specially in Democracy than he asked for division of Indian and creation of new land

 

[Redbull]

Sir he asked for Muslim representation first but after he realized that this will never work specially in Democracy than he asked for division of Indian and creation of new land

This is what he wanted in the new land.

You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State.

 

[Spring Onion]

battle of Zaravans

 

[Zarvan]

Quaid-e-Azam Ka Pakistan” in his own words
In pakistan on August 14, 2009 at 2:54 am
Our secular & liberal freaks attacking on Islamic Ideology of Pakistan & falsely giving the reference of Quaid-e-Azam August 11 speech, which he delivered under the extreme conditions of law & order whereHindu Muslims riots have errupted. Here by quoting few sayings of QA wants to remind our readers that what was the QA vision about Pakistan.

“India is not a nation, nor a country. It is a Sub Continent of nationalities. Hindus and Muslims being the two major nations. The Hindus and Muslims belongs belong to two different religions, philosophies, social customs and literature. They neither intermarry nor interdine and they belong to two different civilization which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions. Their aspects on life and of are different. It is quite clear that Hindus and Muslims derive their inspiration from different sources of history.”(Presidential address at the annual session of Muslim League at Lahore in 1940)

“We do not demand Pakistan simply to have a piece of land but we want a laboratory where we could experiment on Islamic principles.”(In 1946, Quaid-e-Azam Islamia College Peshawar)

“Pakistan only means freedom and independence but Muslims ideology, which has to be preserved which has come to us as a precious gift and treasure and which w hope, others will share with us.” (message to the frontier Muslim Students Federation (June 18th 1945),

“The vital contest in which we are engaged is not only for the material gain but also the very existence of the soul of Muslim nation, Hence I have said often that it is a matter of life and death to the Musalmans and is not a counter for bargaining.”
Predisential Address devlivered at the Special Pakistan Session of the Punjab Muslim Students Federation
March 2, 1941

“Pakistan not only means freedom and independce but the Muslim Ideology which has to be preserved, which has come to us as a precious gift and treasure and which, we hope other will share with us”
Message to Frontier Muslim Students Federation
June 18, 1945

“If we want to make this great State of Pakistan happy and prosperous we should wholly and solely concentrate on the well-being of the people, and especially of the masses and the poor… you are free- you are free to go to your temples mosques or any other place of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion, caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the state… in due course of time Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to Muslims- not in a religious sense for that is the personal faith of an individual- but in a political sense as citizens of one state”
Address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan, Karachi
August 11, 1947



“You have to stand guard over the development and maintenance of Islamic democracy, Islamic social justice and the equality of manhood in your own native soil. With faith, discipline and selfless devotion to duty, there is nothing worthwhile that you cannot achieve.”
Address to the officers and men of the 5th Heavy Ack Ack and 6th Light Ack Ack Regiments in Malir, Karachi
February 21, 1948

“We should have a State in which we could live and breathe as free men and which we could develop according to our own lights and culture and where principles of Islamic social justice could find free play.”
Address to Civil, Naval, Military and Air Force Officers of Pakistan Government, Karachi
October 11, 1947

“We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. We will thereby be fulfilling our mission as Muslims and giving to humanity the message of peace which alone can save it and secure the welfare, happiness and prosperity of mankind”
Speech at the opening ceremony of State Bank of Pakistan, Karachi
July 1, 1948



How can there be unity of government between areas so widely separated? I can answer this question in one word. It is “faith” : faith in Almighty God, in ourselves and in our destiny.

(Broadcast to Australia, recorded on 9th February, 1948)

It is my belief that our salvation lies in following the golden rules of conduct set for us by our great law-giver, the Prophet of Islam.

(Speech at Shahi Darbar, Sibi, February 14, 1948



For Secular / Liberal minded peoples who start from August 11 speech, should read following

Addressing Bar Association Karachi on 25th March 1948,
“Thirteen hundred years ago he laid the foundation of democracy… The Prophet was a great teacher. He was a great lawgiver. He was a great statesman and a great sovereign who ruled. No doubt, there are many people who do not quite appreciate when we talk of Islam. Islam is not only a set of rituals, traditions and spiritual doctrines. Islam is also a code for every Muslim, which regulates his life and his conduct in even politics and economics and the like. It is
based upon highest principles of honour, integrity, fair play and justice for all. One God and the equality of man is one of the fundamental principles of Islam. In Islam there is no difference between man and man. The qualities of
equality, liberty and fraternity are the fundamental principles in Islam.”

Also in the same speech,
“What reason is there for anyone to fear democracy, equality, freedom on the highest standard of integrity and on the basis of fair play and justice for everybody… Let us make it (the constitution of Pakistan). We shall make it and we will show it to the world.”

On 14th February 1948 in Sibi Darbar,
“It is my belief that our salvation lies in following the golden rules of conduct set for us by our great lawgiver, The Prophet of Islam. Let us lay the foundations of our democracy on the basis of truly Islamic ideals and principles. Our Almighty has taught us that “Our decisions in the affairs of state shall be guided by discussions and consultations.”

Also in Feb. 1948 in his broadcast to people of United States of America, ”The Constitution of Pakistan is yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. I do not know that the ultimate shape of this Constitution will be, but I am sure that it will be of the democratic type, embodying the essential principles of Islam. Today they are as applicable in actual life as they were 1300 years ago. Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of man, justice and fair play to everybody. We are the inheritors of these glorious traditions, and are fully alive to our responsibilities and obligations as the framers of the future Constitution of Pakistan.”

And also in Feb. 1948 in his broadcast to the people of Australia,
“The great majority of us are Muslims. We follow the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). We are members of the brotherhood of Islam in which all are equal in right, dignity and self-respect. Consequently we have a special and a very deep sense of unity. But make no mistake: Pakistan is not a theocracy
or anything like it. Islam demands from us the tolerance of other creeds and we welcome in closest association with us all those who, of whatever creed,are themselves willing and ready to play their part as true and loyal citizens of Pakistan.”

In a Press Conference held in New Delhi on 4th July 1947, Quaid-I-Azam answered certain questions which were put to him regarding the nature of state of Pakistan.

Q: Will Pakistan be a secular or theocratic state?
A: You are asking me a question that is absurd. I do not know what a theocratic state means…
(A correspondent suggested that a theocratic state meant a state where only people of a particular religion, for example Muslims would be full citizens and non-muslims would not be full citizens.)
A: Then it seems to me that what I have already said is like pouring water on the duck’s back laughter).
When you talk of democracy, I am afraid you have not studies Islam. We learnt democracy thirteen centuries ago.

In an interview reported in the Press on 25th January 1948 Mr. Jinnah said that,

“he could not understand a section of people who deliberately wanted to create mischief and made propaganda that the Constitution of Pakistan would not be made on the basis of Shariat…” He further said that “not only the muslims but also the non-muslims have nothing to fear.”
Mr first read the above thoughts of Jinah except only quoting the one

 

[Redbull]

battle of Zaravans

What do you suggest as a name change? I'm getting tired of these comparisons.

How about "Jana"?

 

[Redbull]

Quaid-e-Azam Ka Pakistan” in his own words
In pakistan on August 14, 2009 at 2:54 am

Our secular & liberal freaks attacking on Islamic Ideology of Pakistan & falsely giving the reference of Quaid-e-Azam August 11 speech, which he delivered under the extreme conditions of law & order whereHindu Muslims riots have errupted. Here by quoting few sayings of QA wants to remind our readers that what was the QA vision about Pakistan.

Stop trying to justify your viewpoint with absurd theories, the quote speaks for itself.

“India is not a nation, nor a country. It is a Sub Continent of nationalities. Hindus and Muslims being the two major nations. The Hindus and Muslims belongs belong to two different religions, philosophies, social customs and literature. They neither intermarry nor interdine and they belong to two different civilization which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions. Their aspects on life and of are different. It is quite clear that Hindus and Muslims derive their inspiration from different sources of history.”(Presidential address at the annual session of Muslim League at Lahore in 1940)

He is merely stating a fact, Sunni-Shia also have these differences.

“We do not demand Pakistan simply to have a piece of land but we want a laboratory where we could experiment on Islamic principles.”(In 1946, Quaid-e-Azam Islamia College Peshawar)

Yes, "experiment on Islamic principles", of course the enlightened moderate interpretation of Islamic principles to see how they will compare with western principles. First they need to be "experiminted" with, to think Quaid wanted outright implementation on 38 million unsuspecting Muslims is an absurdity.

“Pakistan only means freedom and independence but Muslims ideology, which has to be preserved which has come to us as a precious gift and treasure and which w hope, others will share with us.” (message to the frontier Muslim Students Federation (June 18th 1945),

What was the Muslim ideology in his opinion? Was that stated anywhere? I can only assume he was referring to the earlier "experimentation".

“The vital contest in which we are engaged is not only for the material gain but also the very existence of the soul of Muslim nation, Hence I have said often that it is a matter of life and death to the Musalmans and is not a counter for bargaining.”
Predisential Address devlivered at the Special Pakistan Session of the Punjab Muslim Students Federation
March 2, 1941

A Muslim nation, meaning a nation with a Muslim majority, nothing else.

“Pakistan not only means freedom and independce but the Muslim Ideology which has to be preserved, which has come to us as a precious gift and treasure and which, we hope other will share with us”
Message to Frontier Muslim Students Federation
June 18, 1945

Same as before.

“If we want to make this great State of Pakistan happy and prosperous we should wholly and solely concentrate on the well-being of the people, and especially of the masses and the poor… you are free- you are free to go to your temples mosques or any other place of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion, caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the state… in due course of time Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to Muslims- not in a religious sense for that is the personal faith of an individual- but in a political sense as citizens of one state”
Address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan, Karachi
August 11, 1947

Thank you.

“You have to stand guard over the development and maintenance of Islamic democracy, Islamic social justice and the equality of manhood in your own native soil. With faith, discipline and selfless devotion to duty, there is nothing worthwhile that you cannot achieve.”
Address to the officers and men of the 5th Heavy Ack Ack and 6th Light Ack Ack Regiments in Malir, Karachi
February 21, 1948

Justify this. According to you, democracy is unislamic.

“We should have a State in which we could live and breathe as free men and which we could develop according to our own lights and culture and where principles of Islamic social justice could find free play.”
Address to Civil, Naval, Military and Air Force Officers of Pakistan Government, Karachi
October 11, 1947

Very good

“We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. We will thereby be fulfilling our mission as Muslims and giving to humanity the message of peace which alone can save it and secure the welfare, happiness and prosperity of mankind”
Speech at the opening ceremony of State Bank of Pakistan, Karachi
July 1, 1948

Blame your government for not "expermenting" with these "Islamic concepts" which by the way have to introduced into the constitution by "democratic" elections which you are against.

How can there be unity of government between areas so widely separated? I can answer this question in one word. It is “faith” : faith in Almighty God, in ourselves and in our destiny.

(Broadcast to Australia, recorded on 9th February, 1948)

The common faith to keep all "areas" civil. Tell that to the Extremist Taliban killing other Muslims who you love to defend.

It is my belief that our salvation lies in following the golden rules of conduct set for us by our great law-giver, the Prophet of Islam.

(Speech at Shahi Darbar, Sibi, February 14, 1948

So why hasn't the laws by the "great law-giver" been "experimented" with?



For Secular / Liberal minded peoples who start from August 11 speech, should read following

Addressing Bar Association Karachi on 25th March 1948,
“Thirteen hundred years ago he laid the foundation of democracy… The Prophet was a great teacher. He was a great lawgiver. He was a great statesman and a great sovereign who ruled. No doubt, there are many people who do not quite appreciate when we talk of Islam. Islam is not only a set of rituals, traditions and spiritual doctrines. Islam is also a code for every Muslim, which regulates his life and his conduct in even politics and economics and the like. It is
based upon highest principles of honour, integrity, fair play and justice for all. One God and the equality of man is one of the fundamental principles of Islam. In Islam there is no difference between man and man. The qualities of
equality, liberty and fraternity are the fundamental principles in Islam.”

I agree, but according to you and others here, using western concepts like "democracy", "secularism" and "liberalism" is bidah(innovation). So me and Quaid think similliar and progressively.
Also in the same speech,

“What reason is there for anyone to fear democracy, equality, freedom on the highest standard of integrity and on the basis of fair play and justice for everybody… Let us make it (the constitution of Pakistan). We shall make it and we will show it to the world.”

Same as above.

On 14th February 1948 in Sibi Darbar,
“It is my belief that our salvation lies in following the golden rules of conduct set for us by our great lawgiver, The Prophet of Islam. Let us lay the foundations of our democracy on the basis of truly Islamic ideals and principles. Our Almighty has taught us that “Our decisions in the affairs of state shall be guided by discussions and consultations.”

Same as above.

Also in Feb. 1948 in his broadcast to people of United States of America, ”The Constitution of Pakistan is yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. I do not know that the ultimate shape of this Constitution will be, but I am sure that it will be of the democratic type, embodying the essential principles of Islam. Today they are as applicable in actual life as they were 1300 years ago. Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of man, justice and fair play to everybody. We are the inheritors of these glorious traditions, and are fully alive to our responsibilities and obligations as the framers of the future Constitution of Pakistan.”

Same as above.


And also in Feb. 1948 in his broadcast to the people of Australia,
“The great majority of us are Muslims. We follow the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). We are members of the brotherhood of Islam in which all are equal in right, dignity and self-respect. Consequently we have a special and a very deep sense of unity. But make no mistake: Pakistan is not a theocracy
or anything like it. Islam demands from us the tolerance of other creeds and we welcome in closest association with us all those who, of whatever creed,are themselves willing and ready to play their part as true and loyal citizens of Pakistan.”



In a Press Conference held in New Delhi on 4th July 1947, Quaid-I-Azam answered certain questions which were put to him regarding the nature of state of Pakistan.

Q: Will Pakistan be a secular or theocratic state?
A: You are asking me a question that is absurd. I do not know what a theocratic state means…
(A correspondent suggested that a theocratic state meant a state where only people of a particular religion, for example Muslims would be full citizens and non-muslims would not be full citizens.)
A: Then it seems to me that what I have already said is like pouring water on the duck’s back laughter).
When you talk of democracy, I am afraid you have not studies Islam. We learnt democracy thirteen centuries ago.

In an interview reported in the Press on 25th January 1948 Mr. Jinnah said that,

“he could not understand a section of people who deliberately wanted to create mischief and made propaganda that the Constitution of Pakistan would not be made on the basis of Shariat…” He further said that “not only the muslims but also the non-muslims have nothing to fear.”
Mr first read the above thoughts of Jinah except only quoting the one



Read that, no theocracy sharia business my friend.

 

[Zarvan]

Quaid-e-Azam Ka Pakistan” in his own words
In pakistan on August 14, 2009 at 2:54 am

Stop trying to justify your viewpoint with absurd theories, the quote speaks for itself.


He is merely stating a fact, Sunni-Shia also have these differences.



Yes, "experiment on Islamic principles", of course the enlightened moderate interpretation of Islamic principles to see how they will compare with western principles. First they need to be "experiminted" with, to think Quaid wanted outright implementation on 38 million unsuspecting Muslims is an absurdity.


What was the Muslim ideology in his opinion? Was that stated anywhere? I can only assume he was referring to the earlier "experimentation".




A Muslim nation, meaning a nation with a Muslim majority, nothing else.



Same as before.



Thank you.





Justify this. According to you, democracy is unislamic.


Very good



Blame your government for not "expermenting" with these "Islamic concepts" which by the way have to introduced into the constitution by "democratic" elections which you are against.



The common faith to keep all "areas" civil. Tell that to the Extremist Taliban killing other Muslims who you love to defend.



So why hasn't the laws by the "great law-giver" been "experimented" with?



For Secular / Liberal minded peoples who start from August 11 speech, should read following



I agree, but according to you and others here, using western concepts like "democracy", "secularism" and "liberalism" is bidah(innovation). So me and Quaid think similliar and progressively.
Also in the same speech,


Same as above.


Same as above.




Same as above.


And also in Feb. 1948 in his broadcast to the people of Australia,
“The great majority of us are Muslims. We follow the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). We are members of the brotherhood of Islam in which all are equal in right, dignity and self-respect. Consequently we have a special and a very deep sense of unity. But make no mistake: Pakistan is not a theocracy
or anything like it. Islam demands from us the tolerance of other creeds and we welcome in closest association with us all those who, of whatever creed,are themselves willing and ready to play their part as true and loyal citizens of Pakistan.”



In a Press Conference held in New Delhi on 4th July 1947, Quaid-I-Azam answered certain questions which were put to him regarding the nature of state of Pakistan.

Q: Will Pakistan be a secular or theocratic state?
A: You are asking me a question that is absurd. I do not know what a theocratic state means…
(A correspondent suggested that a theocratic state meant a state where only people of a particular religion, for example Muslims would be full citizens and non-muslims would not be full citizens.)
A: Then it seems to me that what I have already said is like pouring water on the duck’s back laughter).
When you talk of democracy, I am afraid you have not studies Islam. We learnt democracy thirteen centuries ago.

In an interview reported in the Press on 25th January 1948 Mr. Jinnah said that,

“he could not understand a section of people who deliberately wanted to create mischief and made propaganda that the Constitution of Pakistan would not be made on the basis of Shariat…” He further said that “not only the muslims but also the non-muslims have nothing to fear.”[/B]
Mr first read the above thoughts of Jinah except only quoting the one



Read that, no theocracy sharia business my friend.

Sir first of all Jinah never wanted a secular state that is clear from the above statements and also He clearly said based on Islamic Principals and never said that they will be compared with western theories Sir and above all final authority in Islam is Quran and Sunnah and way of Sahaba and not what Jinah said or not because his statements will be judged according to these standards Sir and according to these standards Shariah is the law of Muslims which they have to implement and if they don't decide matters according to Shariah they are the kafirs according to the Quran but again at least Jinah never wanted a secular state Mr you got busted on that Jinah clearly wanted a state based on Islamic Prinicipals

 

[Redbull]

Sir first of all Jinah never wanted a secular state that is clear from the above statements and also He clearly said based on Islamic Principals and never said that they will be compared with western theories

He wanted to "experiment" with Islamic principles, not outright enforce them, so what would be the default law- the British one am I correct?

Sir and above all final authority in Islam is Quran and Sunnah and way of Sahaba and not what Jinah said or not because his statements will be judged according to these standards Sir and according to these standards Shariah is the law of Muslims which they have to implement and if they don't decide matters according to Shariah they are the kafirs according to the Quran but again at least Jinah never wanted a secular state Mr you got busted on that Jinah clearly wanted a state based on Islamic Prinicipals[

Who gets to decide how to interpret the Quran and Sunnah? Quaid is giving his intepretation and he wanted a democratic and liberal Pakistan where laws will be tested and compared and the people would decide which was more effective ie: The british, Islamic or any other. Now compare that with the mullohcracy theocracy where everybody will be forced to follow the Mullahs distored law 100% and fatwas flying left right and centre depending on how they feel. It is not for the state to decide how Muslim or non-Muslim live, and no law should ever be passed that discriminates one religion or the other.

 

[474474]

I think Jinnah never cared about his sect and religion. He was a secular man, and nothing indicates that he used to pray five times or observed ramadan and muharram. He was very very rich , but never went to hajj or even umra. It is never mentioned that he could read quran, actually he never used quotations from quran in his speeches or any where else. How many times he talked about hazrat mohammad p.b.u.h and hadith. As a shia how much he talked about hazrat ali and his famous quotes?
He did politics, on muslims.

All those acts are personal, he's not a show-off Muslim like you who says "Hey look at me I'm going Hajj, praying, fasting", only his political life is documented.

You don't use quotes from Hadiths, Quran to convince non-Muslims, his opponents were congress, you use it to convince Muslims.

Dude, ignore the troll, he's a pushtunistan loy afghanistan wet dreamer, he's some cheap afghan immigrant hating the hand that feeds
Just read his other posts, he's just trying to create fitna amongst Pakistanis. I don't care if someone's an athiest, satanst or panthiest, if he's pakistan GTFO out of our affairs illegal immigrant

I am not saying that!! I said he was our leader and a Muslim.And as much as I know there is no such sect among Shias who worship Hazrat Ali/Hassan.They respect them as Grandsons of Rasool(saww) and they have love and devotion for them!!

Okay fine, you dont worship ali i accept. But unlike most shias (like you said) he did'nt have any 'special' craze of ahlul bait or whatever, in fact one of the articles said he often used refrences to hazrat Umer RA the great second caliph whom shias hate

 

[Zaidi 12]

Arrrghhhh! Guyz why are you making this lil girl cryyyyy m leavinggg

 

[Redbull]

Arrrghhhh! Guyz why are you making this lil girl cryyyyy m leavinggg

Oh sorry, why are you crying?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

All those acts are personal, he's not a show-off Muslim like you who says "Hey look at me I'm going Hajj, praying, fasting", only his political life is documented.

You don't use quotes from Hadiths, Quran to convince non-Muslims, his opponents were congress, you use it to convince Muslims.

My friend you and those who believe performing prayers, hajj ummerah and observing ramadan is just personal matter have a huge deficit in Islam.
And a leader in islam is accounted for EVERY SINGLE ACTION!
Btw which part of his political action is islamic? Did he ever establish any constitution according to Islam? Note: blowing few quotes of Islam in air to make Muslim egos satisfied does not count as "Islamic action"!

Just read his other posts, he's just trying to create fitna amongst Pakistanis. I don't care if someone's an athiest, satanst or panthiest, if he's pakistan GTFO out of our affairs illegal immigrant

So in your Jinnah ka pakistan, minorities have no rights to have their opinion in our political affairs? Yes this is exactly Jinnah ka pakistan not Islam ka pakistan.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

He wanted to "experiment" with Islamic principles, not outright enforce them, so what would be the default law- the British one am I correct?




Who gets to decide how to interpret the Quran and Sunnah? Quaid is giving his intepretation and he wanted a democratic and liberal Pakistan where laws will be tested and compared and the people would decide which was more effective ie: The british, Islamic or any other. Now compare that with the mullohcracy theocracy where everybody will be forced to follow the Mullahs distored law 100% and fatwas flying left right and centre depending on how they feel. It is not for the state to decide how Muslim or non-Muslim live, and no law should ever be passed that discriminates one religion or the other.

why is that every time islamic politics is discussed liberals like you always portray it as barbaric Mullah laws? Tell us the truth, did your kari shahib treat you bad?

Your post also proves that it was the British who created Pakistan because it met its interest "British system implemented" as to islamic which the British were hell bent to destroy.

 

[Redbull]

why is that every time islamic politics is discussed liberals like you always portray it as barbaric Mullah laws? Tell us the truth, did your kari shahib treat you bad?

Actually he did but your wrong. I have no problem with Islamic politics, it is the implementation that I have a problem with, I'd rather the people decide then it be "barbarically" imposed.

Your post also proves that it was the British who created Pakistan because it met its interest "British system implemented" as to islamic which the British were hell bent to destroy.

Not really, British India and its child Pakistan both had British system. What came afterwards was the testing of Islamic laws rather than outright implementation by some Mullah, which I think was fair to do, after 100 of years of Islamic dictatorships.