Myth_buster_1
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Not everything is a hindu conspiracy. I have provided more evidence of him being a agnostic then any of blind patriots fanboys have about his religiosity.
Would Jinnah have lived as a Shia?
- Thread starter ajtr
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Not everything is a hindu conspiracy. I have provided more evidence of him being a agnostic then any of blind patriots fanboys have about his religiosity.
Zaidi 12
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we left our topic and started discussing Ahmadis
Everyone now stop this discussion.Today is 11 September,Death anniversary of Quaid,why shouldn't we talk about that.
What, if he was a Shia or a sunni?? it's shameful for us that today we are discussing that he would have been a sunni or a shia?!!!
Its up to you how you consider him? You want to divide him into the sects or you consider him a Great Leader who aimed to get a country for Muslims...not shias or sunnis...both shias and sunnis had sacrificed for this country and today both of us are fighting.He was Leader of all the Muslims who aimed for a separate country.
Salute to our Great Leader!!!
Everyone now stop this discussion.Today is 11 September,Death anniversary of Quaid,why shouldn't we talk about that.
What, if he was a Shia or a sunni?? it's shameful for us that today we are discussing that he would have been a sunni or a shia?!!!
Its up to you how you consider him? You want to divide him into the sects or you consider him a Great Leader who aimed to get a country for Muslims...not shias or sunnis...both shias and sunnis had sacrificed for this country and today both of us are fighting.He was Leader of all the Muslims who aimed for a separate country.
Salute to our Great Leader!!!
If he was agnostic then he wouldn't have aimed a state for Muslims and ALLAH wouldn't have helped him!! that's it
ajtr
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Would Jinnah, a Shia, also have to leave the country he founded?
I should point out that in Pakistan, not only non-Muslims, but also those Muslims who do not conform to the majority's interpretation of Islam are deemed as minorities. DESIGN: ERUM SHAIKH
August 15 marked the completion of 65 years since our country came into existence. Yes, it was August 15 and not August 14, however, we officially celebrate our independence day on the 14th.
The Pakistan we see today is not the Pakistan envisaged by the founders of this country. There were a lot of mishaps surrounding the birth of this country as it faced a pre-mature labour. Short-sightedness on the part of leaders of the Pakistan Movement coupled with the intrigue that arose by the parting Britishers resulted in a country that was in shambles as soon as it came into existence.
The very first grave challenge faced by Pakistan was the massive bloodshed that occurred on both sides of the border. Starting from the massacres of non-Muslims in Northern Punjab and Bengal in March 1947, till the brutal slaughter of Muslim refugees in the last months of 1947, sectarian violence affected the whole subcontinent.
Faiz Ahmed Faiz best summed up partition in the following words:
Ye daagh daagh ujaala,
Ye shab-gazeeda seher,
Wo intezar tha jis ka,
Ye wo seher to nahi.
(Such a tarnished beginning and shadow infested dusk; this is not what we were waiting for.)
Mr Jinnah, a twelver Shia himself, would be considered a minority today, in the state that he founded.
At the time of partition, 25% of the population was non-Muslim. This has reduced to a mere 2% since then. This relative decrease in number is chiefly due to the creation of Bangladesh but also due to mass exodus of non-Muslims who had to spend lives as second-rate citizens in their own country.
Arpit Parashar wrote in his article entitled Half a country, half a life in Ink Magazine:
Despite border tensions, migration, chiefly into India, has been a constant since partition. Hindus and Muslims from East Pakistanthen Bangladeshfled to India to escape the atrocities at home. Rough government estimates suggest that 1o lakh Hindus came in after Partition, another 10 lakh in the 1950s, around 50 lakh in the 1960s. Around 15 lakh of the one crore who came to India in 1970-1971 stayed on. Since then, poverty and sectarian strife at home has led to the migration of about 50 lakh Bangladeshi Muslims to India since 1971.
He also mentioned that,
The Constitution of Pakistan upholds Islam as the state religion and allows other religions to co-exist but the ground realities are different. Hindus are termed kafir and their love for their home country is questioned at every level. The Chief Justice of the Lahore High Court Khwaja Muhammad Sharif is reported to have commented earlier this year that the Hindus were responsible for terrorism in Pakistan.
I should point out that in Pakistan, not only non-Muslims, but also those Muslims who do not conform to the majoritys interpretation of Islam are deemed as minorities.
In the infamous Munir Report of 1954, Justice Munir noted that none of the learned Islamic scholars representing their respective sects came to agree upon a single, universal definition of who was a Muslim (and who was not). This results in a situation where if we are Muslim by the standard of one sects definition, we are considered kafir by the rest of the definitions.
The constant insecurity, disdain and persecution faced by our fellow non-Muslim Pakistanis for the last 65 years is contrary to the teachings of our religion and every ethical principle there is. Even Jogindar Nath Mandal, Pakistans first law minister chosen by Mr Jinnah himself, had to leave the country in 1950 as a protest against maltreatment of Hindus in East Pakistan.
At the heart of this hatred of others lies the sense of self-righteousness that we have been raised on, and a hefty mixture of cognitive dissonance (difference in what we are told/taught and what the reality is). There exists cultural narcissism; the idea that we are the best nation ever but we have been suppressed by mythical enemies.
The Islamic revivalists of today, while condemning non-Muslims for their exploits against Muslims, forget that non-Muslims enjoyed comfortable lives under Muslim rulers from the time of the reign of Righteous Caliphs till the fall of the Ottoman empire.
I agree in principle with my hyper-nationalist brothers when they denounce the atrocities being committed in Kashmir, Palestine and Burma. I just wish they would speak a single word against Shia genocide, Baloch missing persons, target killing of Hazaras or events like Gojra, which occur in their own backyard.
Raising a voice about minorities is considered a liberal elite hobby but its not the liberal elite who lynch innocent Christians, abduct Hindu girls or accuse minors of committing blasphemy.
Detractors point out that highlighting minority rights downplays real issues like the power crisis, unemployment, stagflation, education and health disasters. I partially agree with this criticism, but to quote Saroop Ijaz,
No issue is more real than murder or witch-hunt. All loss of innocent life is to be condoled, yet not all funerals require the same mourning or outrage.
It must be mentioned that the so-called real issues have created a frustration that has frequently been outpoured at the cost of minorities.
Someone tweeted the other day:
When Mr Jinnah said, You are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your churches, he shouldve added, at your own risk.
The space for minorities, and people, who speak up about minority rights is closing down at an alarming pace. For the Christians and Hindus who couldnt afford going to a new country in 1947, or the Shias and Ahmadis who immigrated to a new land, the road ahead is a bleak one. This is a dangerous situation because the thirst for blood of minorities will eventually lead to infighting and civil war.
Excommunicating sects one by one will end in disaster. Cyril Almeida writes:
Pakistans dirty little secret isnt its treatment of non-Muslims, Shias or other sundry groups who find themselves in the cross-hairs of the rabid and the religious. Pakistans dirty little secret is that everyone is a minority.
I should point out that in Pakistan, not only non-Muslims, but also those Muslims who do not conform to the majority's interpretation of Islam are deemed as minorities. DESIGN: ERUM SHAIKH
August 15 marked the completion of 65 years since our country came into existence. Yes, it was August 15 and not August 14, however, we officially celebrate our independence day on the 14th.
The Pakistan we see today is not the Pakistan envisaged by the founders of this country. There were a lot of mishaps surrounding the birth of this country as it faced a pre-mature labour. Short-sightedness on the part of leaders of the Pakistan Movement coupled with the intrigue that arose by the parting Britishers resulted in a country that was in shambles as soon as it came into existence.
The very first grave challenge faced by Pakistan was the massive bloodshed that occurred on both sides of the border. Starting from the massacres of non-Muslims in Northern Punjab and Bengal in March 1947, till the brutal slaughter of Muslim refugees in the last months of 1947, sectarian violence affected the whole subcontinent.
Faiz Ahmed Faiz best summed up partition in the following words:
Ye daagh daagh ujaala,
Ye shab-gazeeda seher,
Wo intezar tha jis ka,
Ye wo seher to nahi.
(Such a tarnished beginning and shadow infested dusk; this is not what we were waiting for.)
Mr Jinnah, a twelver Shia himself, would be considered a minority today, in the state that he founded.
At the time of partition, 25% of the population was non-Muslim. This has reduced to a mere 2% since then. This relative decrease in number is chiefly due to the creation of Bangladesh but also due to mass exodus of non-Muslims who had to spend lives as second-rate citizens in their own country.
Arpit Parashar wrote in his article entitled Half a country, half a life in Ink Magazine:
Despite border tensions, migration, chiefly into India, has been a constant since partition. Hindus and Muslims from East Pakistanthen Bangladeshfled to India to escape the atrocities at home. Rough government estimates suggest that 1o lakh Hindus came in after Partition, another 10 lakh in the 1950s, around 50 lakh in the 1960s. Around 15 lakh of the one crore who came to India in 1970-1971 stayed on. Since then, poverty and sectarian strife at home has led to the migration of about 50 lakh Bangladeshi Muslims to India since 1971.
He also mentioned that,
The Constitution of Pakistan upholds Islam as the state religion and allows other religions to co-exist but the ground realities are different. Hindus are termed kafir and their love for their home country is questioned at every level. The Chief Justice of the Lahore High Court Khwaja Muhammad Sharif is reported to have commented earlier this year that the Hindus were responsible for terrorism in Pakistan.
I should point out that in Pakistan, not only non-Muslims, but also those Muslims who do not conform to the majoritys interpretation of Islam are deemed as minorities.
In the infamous Munir Report of 1954, Justice Munir noted that none of the learned Islamic scholars representing their respective sects came to agree upon a single, universal definition of who was a Muslim (and who was not). This results in a situation where if we are Muslim by the standard of one sects definition, we are considered kafir by the rest of the definitions.
The constant insecurity, disdain and persecution faced by our fellow non-Muslim Pakistanis for the last 65 years is contrary to the teachings of our religion and every ethical principle there is. Even Jogindar Nath Mandal, Pakistans first law minister chosen by Mr Jinnah himself, had to leave the country in 1950 as a protest against maltreatment of Hindus in East Pakistan.
At the heart of this hatred of others lies the sense of self-righteousness that we have been raised on, and a hefty mixture of cognitive dissonance (difference in what we are told/taught and what the reality is). There exists cultural narcissism; the idea that we are the best nation ever but we have been suppressed by mythical enemies.
The Islamic revivalists of today, while condemning non-Muslims for their exploits against Muslims, forget that non-Muslims enjoyed comfortable lives under Muslim rulers from the time of the reign of Righteous Caliphs till the fall of the Ottoman empire.
I agree in principle with my hyper-nationalist brothers when they denounce the atrocities being committed in Kashmir, Palestine and Burma. I just wish they would speak a single word against Shia genocide, Baloch missing persons, target killing of Hazaras or events like Gojra, which occur in their own backyard.
Raising a voice about minorities is considered a liberal elite hobby but its not the liberal elite who lynch innocent Christians, abduct Hindu girls or accuse minors of committing blasphemy.
Detractors point out that highlighting minority rights downplays real issues like the power crisis, unemployment, stagflation, education and health disasters. I partially agree with this criticism, but to quote Saroop Ijaz,
No issue is more real than murder or witch-hunt. All loss of innocent life is to be condoled, yet not all funerals require the same mourning or outrage.
It must be mentioned that the so-called real issues have created a frustration that has frequently been outpoured at the cost of minorities.
Someone tweeted the other day:
When Mr Jinnah said, You are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your churches, he shouldve added, at your own risk.
The space for minorities, and people, who speak up about minority rights is closing down at an alarming pace. For the Christians and Hindus who couldnt afford going to a new country in 1947, or the Shias and Ahmadis who immigrated to a new land, the road ahead is a bleak one. This is a dangerous situation because the thirst for blood of minorities will eventually lead to infighting and civil war.
Excommunicating sects one by one will end in disaster. Cyril Almeida writes:
Pakistans dirty little secret isnt its treatment of non-Muslims, Shias or other sundry groups who find themselves in the cross-hairs of the rabid and the religious. Pakistans dirty little secret is that everyone is a minority.
Zaidi 12
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Hey Zainab! I would suggest to stop these sort of threads..Let Jinnah's soul rest in peace. Don't you know about the people? Do you want them to curse Jinnah,I know he was Shia but plz its his and ALLAH's matter,if you prove that he was Shia everyone will forget that he was our Leader and will start cursing him.Why don't you realize that he aimed a state for alllll Muslimsss...Don't let his soul cursed by Muslims and Pakistanis.No one is here to accept the fact!
Only ignorants will, their opinions don't matter.
Zaidi 12
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You are right!!but still they make me cry
just like, one said "he was agnostic"
Personally, I just thnk he was a good Muslim, I don't think he followed any particular sect. I don't call him sunni, shia,barelvi wahabi,ahmedi or anything....just a good Muslim.
You knew he was shia? You interrogated him, you forced him to say that?
He was asked many times and he refused to be called shia, and one of the basic pillars of shiaism is cursing the sahaba and ali/hassan worship - the Quaid did neither
He wasn't agnosric, and anyways, agnostics and athiests i know are better humans than you
Marwat Khan Lodhi
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I think Jinnah never cared about his sect and religion. He was a secular man, and nothing indicates that he used to pray five times or observed ramadan and muharram. He was very very rich , but never went to hajj or even umra. It is never mentioned that he could read quran, actually he never used quotations from quran in his speeches or any where else. How many times he talked about hazrat mohammad p.b.u.h and hadith. As a shia how much he talked about hazrat ali and his famous quotes?
He did politics, on muslims.
He did politics, on muslims.
All those acts are personal, he's not a show-off Muslim like you who says "Hey look at me I'm going Hajj, praying, fasting", only his political life is documented.
You don't use quotes from Hadiths, Quran to convince non-Muslims, his opponents were congress, you use it to convince Muslims.
Marwat Khan Lodhi
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Personal? A leader whose entire politics is based on muslim vs hindu, should have practiced islam a little bit. He talked about fundamental differences between muslims and hindus, but he should have atleast tried to look and act more like muslim, less like angraiz. And islam is very clear about "faraiz", you have to do it whether you are assumed as show-off or not by others. I am myself very weak muslim, but its jinnah who is to be criticized as he used islam as a tool and claimed to be leader of muslims.
No, his politics wern't based of "Hindu vs Muslim", he wanted some representation for Muslims and for that, he didn't need to show himself to be anyone other than a Muslim Politician. There is some historical work which showed he was a good Muslim and used to pray too which I quoted earlier, but either way, he had a secular outlook(meaning religion was to be left at home- a personal private matter).
Zarvan
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Sir Leaving question of was Jinah a good Muslim or not to a side for some while Sir this issue that Jinah only want Muslims presentation this is funny Sir because when ever will you talk about Muslims Islam will come up with it you can't separate Islam from Muslims
Zaidi 12
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I am not saying that!! I said he was our leader and a Muslim.And as much as I know there is no such sect among Shias who worship Hazrat Ali/Hassan.They respect them as Grandsons of Rasool(saww) and they have love and devotion for them!!
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