Featured Would having Rafale on Feb 27, 2019 made any difference?

[kongn]

If the a2a of air superiority platform is inferior , that makes it inferior. It doesnt matter if the plane can detect a fighter jet at 200 kms if it cant fire at it.I am not doubting its capabilities, its just not as relatively effective as it was 20 years ago

It has been corrected with addition of astra mk1 and r-77-1.In future astra mk2 and derby ER maybe added if needed.PAF cant really face 260 MKIs in a war,bulk of it will be decimated within 72 hours,though we will take losses.The only aircraft of value is the f-16.The jf-17 current versions are 3rd gen fighters used mostly for number filling and propaganda.Still waiting to see what blk 3 brings.Rest are museum aircraft.
We couldnt escalate the conflict last time due to public pressure to get abhinandan back and the us and arabs got involved in the process,but we are preparing for the next big terror attack .This time we go in with rafales which they can't stop either with aircraft or with their hq-9/hq-16 and use not a penetrator warhead but a HE warhead to collapse the whole structure to leave no doubt.
Then if needed we will escalate.The S-400 will make the PAF awacs unable to operate as they can be targeted from max range (400 km).The new Barak-8 is also being inducted.Tejas is replacing the last migs.MKIS have the new missiles.By 2022 all rafales(end of 2021) and s-400 will be inducted.We are inducting 200 air launched brahmos and 100 SCALP ALCM for standoff strikes other than LGBs and glide bombs like spice.Overall the decade long inertia under UPA government has ended.In 2 years from now we will be dominant position.By 2025 our 1st phase modernization will be complete and there will be nowhere for them to hide.They have already cut down sortie rate due to fuel shortage and tight budgets.Unless they can crash procure and operationalize a 5th gen fighter by 2022,PAF is done for.Its just a matter of when the next big terror attack gets through.Kadi ninda is forgotten past now.Any major terror attack will be responded to by an attack on mainland pak soil.That is new doctrine.And IAF is now lead agency for that,not army.

 

[jaibi]

From an air force perspective, I don't think it'd have made a difference significantly based on two factors:

How long the IAF has had the new systems and how deeply incorporated they are into air tactics

What the tactical/strategic aims are of the IAF.

PAF answered with aggression that their counterpart wasn't prepared for at all. That's a mindset needed rather than machinery but the latter can develop it differently.

I am seeing all this hype around Rafale on our national and regional TV news channels today...I am not an expert in military affairs.
I would like to know from experts here(pak or indian) that would Rafales have made a difference on feb 27 last year when pak jets entered india?would pak have dared to enter indian air space had we had rafales back then?
Would Rafales have succeeded in downing pakistani jets?Are we over exaggerating the importance of Rafales?are the jets which pak has now are good enough to fight rafales?
Please keep your answers confined to technicalities only..no trolling or india bashing plz

 

[ayodhyapati]

LoL

Modi wanted to take GB from Pakistan but ended up surrendering more land in Ladakh to China.


"Neither is anyone inside our territory nor is any of our post captured" - Indian PM Narender Modi (aka Surrender Modi)

modi is an idiot .
but we are happy and content with kashmir in our hand .
what chinese are claiming is nothing in front of kashmir , we can live without few square km of barren land , but we can not live without srinagar and kashmir .

 

[UKBengali]

It has been corrected with addition of astra mk1 and r-77-1.In future astra mk2 and derby ER maybe added if needed.PAF cant really face 260 MKIs in a war,bulk of it will be decimated within 72 hours,though we will take losses.The only aircraft of value is the f-16.The jf-17 current versions are 3rd gen fighters used mostly for number filling and propaganda.Still waiting to see what blk 3 brings.Rest are museum aircraft.
We couldnt escalate the conflict last time due to public pressure to get abhinandan back and the us and arabs got involved in the process,but we are preparing for the next big terror attack .This time we go in with rafales which they can't stop either with aircraft or with their hq-9/hq-16 and use not a penetrator warhead but a HE warhead to collapse the whole structure to leave no doubt.
Then if needed we will escalate.The S-400 will make the PAF awacs unable to operate as they can be targeted from max range (400 km).The new Barak-8 is also being inducted.Tejas is replacing the last migs.MKIS have the new missiles.By 2022 all rafales(end of 2021) and s-400 will be inducted.We are inducting 200 air launched brahmos and 100 SCALP ALCM for standoff strikes other than LGBs and glide bombs like spice.Overall the decade long inertia under UPA government has ended.In 2 years from now we will be dominant position.By 2025 our 1st phase modernization will be complete and there will be nowhere for them to hide.They have already cut down sortie rate due to fuel shortage and tight budgets.Unless they can crash procure and operationalize a 5th gen fighter by 2022,PAF is done for.Its just a matter of when the next big terror attack gets through.Kadi ninda is forgotten past now.Any major terror attack will be responded to by an attack on mainland pak soil.That is new doctrine.And IAF is now lead agency for that,not army.

Dude, just far too much wishful thinking in that post.

JF-17 Block 3 will bring both AESA radar and PL-15 which will beat anything that India has but Rafale.

Do you know the best thing about JF-17 Block 3? It is less than half the price of Rafale and so the PAF could end up with 100, while India struggles with barely much more than the 36 it has already ordered.

If PAF needs it, they can always ask China for J-35s when available that will turn the IAF into a duck hunt for the PAF.

I really advise more research and less wet dreams going forward.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

very good all that jamming et all when 12 indian aircraft hit deep in balakot did not wake up in night ?

I don't think IAF crossed the LOC on the 26th February.

But it definitely did on the 27th February and this guy felt the jamming.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Su 30mki is not as effective as it was 20years ago is totally due to our mod and iaf incompetence in upgrading it. Its upgradation should have started 5-10 years ago. Its not the platform that is to be blamed but the sheer mod/iaf/babus shortshightedness and redtapes. Paf is much better in improving their force with low budgets but our forces only wants new shiny foreign toys rather than supporting indigenous products and upgrading existing platforms.

Su30 MKI is still a very good fighter jet. It has a powerful radar, extremely maneuverable(if it gets into a dogfight), and its weapons though not as good as BVRAAM...are still good.

On paper...Su30 MKI is better than JF17 Block II...
...but again coming back to the way modern warfare is fought...
...due to PAF's net centricity...IAF Su30 MKI(with it's rather large RCS) will be picked up by either ground radars or AWACS...and the JF17 will see it(relayed from AWACS or ground station) before it sees the JF17. Other tactics can also be employed like JF17 keeping its radar off while the AWACS tracks the Su30 MKI...and so on. In this situation it doesn't matter if JF17s radar is outranged by the more powerful radar on Su30 MKI...bcuz it is relying on even more powerful radars on board AWACS or on the ground. At the same time it's smaller size(and hence smaller RCS) is serving as an advantage. Essentially each asset complimenting another...lending their strengths while covering the weaknesses.

@Vikki

 

[LeGenD]

Good observation. Even our chiefs have somehow become motormouths. And PM is using his usual PR tactics to sway various ground issues. No body in even IAF is taking the J20 seriously. I have no idea when did our forces become so shortshighted. God knows how much kickbacks these generals get

Deep down, Indian military officials understand the condition of their assets.

This news: https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...es-problems-despite-russian-spare-parts-deal/

- surfaced in 2017 and an insider account.

"The [Su-30MKI] fleet is prohibitively expensive equipment and faces problems due to high, premature failure rate of subsystems like engines, radars, missiles, avionics, etc.," said Vinod Kumar Narang, a retired Indian Air Force air vice-marshal.

On paper, Indian Su-30 MKI fleet is 200+ strong and potent. But how reliable are these machines and the supply chain of parts needed to keep them operational?

Average Indian was going as far as to declaring Su-30 MKI as RAPTOR OF THE EAST. I recall having conversations with some and reminded them to not underestimate F-16 aircraft in the hands of well-trained pilots. They had dismissal attitude.

And now average Indian is surprised and scared?

When you do not pay heed to what your retired military officials have to say, don't be surprised when your teeth are knocked in.

Consider USAF for instance - this Air Force is very likely to steamroll any other Air Force in a war proper. It is well-funded, well-maintained, technologically superior, and with comprehensive training regime (RED FLAG and overseas exploits) to ensure a supply of experienced pilots and tactics in the mix. Organizational brilliance in short.

PAF have never compromised on its professionalism either. This game is not just about having good machines only.

 

[blain2]

I am seeing all this hype around Rafale on our national and regional TV news channels today...I am not an expert in military affairs.
I would like to know from experts here(pak or indian) that would Rafales have made a difference on feb 27 last year when pak jets entered india?would pak have dared to enter indian air space had we had rafales back then?
Would Rafales have succeeded in downing pakistani jets?Are we over exaggerating the importance of Rafales?are the jets which pak has now are good enough to fight rafales?
Please keep your answers confined to technicalities only..no trolling or india bashing plz

My own take is that Rafale would weigh considerably on PAF planners' minds on the defensive counter-air side. This is because of the significant enhancement that it provides to India for stealthy strike.

The issue for the PAF is not about whether it can respond in kind to any Indian airstrikes. Both Pakistan and India have this ability because you cannot have air cover over all of the airspace all the time. This is known to both sides and if an operation is to be planned, such things are considered to exploit gaps in air cover. So getting the strikes in on either side is not a problem. Both sides have the ability to do so and there-in lies the deterrence.

The bigger issue is the interdiction of the Indian strike packages from coming into Pakistan because of Rafale's reduced radar signature which would help the IAF in conducting strikes somewhat more stealthily.

As such, Rafale does not deter Pakistan's response, rather it enhances the Indian strike options.

 

[PurpleButcher]

It has been corrected with addition of astra mk1 and r-77-1.In future astra mk2 and derby ER maybe added if needed.PAF cant really face 260 MKIs in a war,bulk of it will be decimated within 72 hours,though we will take losses.The only aircraft of value is the f-16.The jf-17 current versions are 3rd gen fighters used mostly for number filling and propaganda.Still waiting to see what blk 3 brings.Rest are museum aircraft.
We couldnt escalate the conflict last time due to public pressure to get abhinandan back and the us and arabs got involved in the process,but we are preparing for the next big terror attack .This time we go in with rafales which they can't stop either with aircraft or with their hq-9/hq-16 and use not a penetrator warhead but a HE warhead to collapse the whole structure to leave no doubt.
Then if needed we will escalate.The S-400 will make the PAF awacs unable to operate as they can be targeted from max range (400 km).The new Barak-8 is also being inducted.Tejas is replacing the last migs.MKIS have the new missiles.By 2022 all rafales(end of 2021) and s-400 will be inducted.We are inducting 200 air launched brahmos and 100 SCALP ALCM for standoff strikes other than LGBs and glide bombs like spice.Overall the decade long inertia under UPA government has ended.In 2 years from now we will be dominant position.By 2025 our 1st phase modernization will be complete and there will be nowhere for them to hide.They have already cut down sortie rate due to fuel shortage and tight budgets.Unless they can crash procure and operationalize a 5th gen fighter by 2022,PAF is done for.Its just a matter of when the next big terror attack gets through.Kadi ninda is forgotten past now.Any major terror attack will be responded to by an attack on mainland pak soil.That is new doctrine.And IAF is now lead agency for that,not army.

Bollywood has made Indians delusional, be it politicians, their military brass, news reporters or the masses, they all live in fairyland. Whereas in the real world, even rods covered with barbed wires are too much to handle for Indian military.

 

[migflug]

It has been corrected with addition of astra mk1 and r-77-1.In future astra mk2 and derby ER maybe added if needed.PAF cant really face 260 MKIs in a war,bulk of it will be decimated within 72 hours,though we will take losses.The only aircraft of value is the f-16.The jf-17 current versions are 3rd gen fighters used mostly for number filling and propaganda.Still waiting to see what blk 3 brings.Rest are museum aircraft.
We couldnt escalate the conflict last time due to public pressure to get abhinandan back and the us and arabs got involved in the process,but we are preparing for the next big terror attack .This time we go in with rafales which they can't stop either with aircraft or with their hq-9/hq-16 and use not a penetrator warhead but a HE warhead to collapse the whole structure to leave no doubt.
Then if needed we will escalate.The S-400 will make the PAF awacs unable to operate as they can be targeted from max range (400 km).The new Barak-8 is also being inducted.Tejas is replacing the last migs.MKIS have the new missiles.By 2022 all rafales(end of 2021) and s-400 will be inducted.We are inducting 200 air launched brahmos and 100 SCALP ALCM for standoff strikes other than LGBs and glide bombs like spice.Overall the decade long inertia under UPA government has ended.In 2 years from now we will be dominant position.By 2025 our 1st phase modernization will be complete and there will be nowhere for them to hide.They have already cut down sortie rate due to fuel shortage and tight budgets.Unless they can crash procure and operationalize a 5th gen fighter by 2022,PAF is done for.Its just a matter of when the next big terror attack gets through.Kadi ninda is forgotten past now.Any major terror attack will be responded to by an attack on mainland pak soil.That is new doctrine.And IAF is now lead agency for that,not army.

Except that we didnt had those when it was needed. IAF rose from hibernation after feb 19. What were they doing before that. Why hurry now. As a professional airforce couldnt they anticipate that BVR,AESA are the future.Even today we dont have integrated radio network, refulers, sizable no of awacs etc.And this is happening again with the army after chinese intrusion . Yes rafale being an excellent fighter which will give us a decisive edge against pakistan, but same cant be said about china. And when you hear the statementsof IAF chiefs about rafale being gamechanger , it looks like they dont take J20 seriously, the same thinking which led to feb 19 fiasco. Had IAF being proactive and upgraded su 30 to super sukhoi standards we wouldn't have hyped rafale this much. Think what a beast su 30mki would be with aesa, new engines,new electronic suites. But even IAF is now drooling over rafale, as if it would solve all our structural deficiencies .

 

[Cookie Monster]

My own take is that Rafale would weigh considerably in PAF planners' minds on the defensive counter-air side. This is because of the significant enhancement that it provides to India for stealthy strike.

The issue for the PAF is not about whether it can respond in kind to any Indian airstrikes. Both Pakistan and India have this ability because you cannot have air cover over all of the airspace all the time. This is known to both sides and if an operation is to be planned, such things are considered to exploit gaps in air cover. So getting the strikes in on either side is not a problem. Both sides have the ability to do so and there-in lies the deterrence.

The bigger issue is the interdiction of the Indian strike packages from coming into Pakistan because of Rafale's reduced radar signature which would help the IAF in conducting strikes somewhat more stealthily.

As such, Rafale does not deter Pakistan's response, rather it enhances the Indian strike options.

I have tried to read up on Spectra as much as I was able to find...but the information seems scarce(not including the rants of Indian fanboys on quora and what not). My question is...if Spectra works...essentially like "noise cancellation" but for radars...
...how well would it work in a net centric environment...where there are multiple radars in play of different frequencies, different positions, etc. So for example if a ground radar station and an AWAC in the air are scanning an area where a Rafale is flying...would it degrade the performance of Spectra?

 

[Cookie Monster]

Dude, just far too much wishful thinking in that post.

JF-17 Block 3 will bring both AESA radar and PL-15 which will beat anything that India has but Rafale.

Do you know the best thing about JF-17 Block 3? It is less than half the price of Rafale and so the PAF could end up with 100, while India struggles with barely much more than the 36 it has already ordered.

If PAF needs it, they can always ask China for J-35s when available that will turn the IAF into a duck hunt for the PAF.

I really advise more research and less wet dreams going forward.

Ssshhh let him believe that IAF will decimate PAF within 72 hours. This underestimation is what serves as a key advantage.

 

[Vikram1]

Let me mention something from past. Before Operation Swift Retort; everything in Indian arsenal was supposedly aimed at China and for Indian Military especially IAF; their low tier was enough to washout PAF and claim Air Superiority.

Then what happened? PAF did the most unexpected and not just for India but many players out there who have been arming them with a dream to contain China. Now see the tone down that these Rafale(s) are for PAF which verifies that whatever India had, was nothing despite the lower number & economic constrains of PAF.

What we learnt? PAF always prepares with full estimation of enemy and even in a sense of bigger threat. The calm on the faces & not so media bragging or hype is a sign to support what PAF said that all the preparations are in place and the game changer mindset will be proven wrong again. PAF will always keep the game one step ahead.

Do you really believe if by mistake (technical) IAF did not shoot down its own helicopter by SAM, your fighter aircraft came back safely? They were detected even before crossing Indian border, but you can't say same about IAF when they crossed Pakistani border.

 

[migflug]

Deep down, Indian military officials understand the condition of their assets.

This news: https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...es-problems-despite-russian-spare-parts-deal/

- surfaced in 2017 and an insider account.

"The [Su-30MKI] fleet is prohibitively expensive equipment and faces problems due to high, premature failure rate of subsystems like engines, radars, missiles, avionics, etc.," said Vinod Kumar Narang, a retired Indian Air Force air vice-marshal.

On paper, Indian Su-30 MKI fleet is 200+ strong and potent. But how reliable are these machines and the supply chain of parts needed to keep them operational?

Average Indian was going as far as to declaring Su-30 MKI as RAPTOR OF THE EAST. I recall having conversations with some and reminded them to not underestimate F-16 aircraft in the hands of well-trained pilots. They had dismissal attitude.

And now average Indian is surprised and scared?

When you do not pay heed to what your retired military officials have to say, don't be surprised when your teeth are knocked in.

Consider USAF for instance - this Air Force is very likely to steamroll any other Air Force in a war proper. It is well-funded, well-maintained, technologically superior, and with comprehensive training regime (RED FLAG and overseas exploits) to ensure a supply of experienced pilots and tactics in the mix. Organizational brilliance in short.

PAF have never compromised on its professionalism either. This game is not just about having good machines only.

If even after making more than 200 planes there is a supply chain issue, then who is to blame. Planners? Mod? Shouldn't their primary concern is to fix their biggest inventory problems asap. If its not happening then iaf/hal is to blame.

On the other note i have heard the operational readyness of su 30 is upto 60% now and will be touching 75 soon.

I think this maybe one of the major reasons iaf is so excited about rafale. Russian planes have huge maintenance issues. And iaf has great record with mirage and is their goto weapon

 

[kongn]

Dude, just far too much wishful thinking in that post.

JF-17 Block 3 will bring both AESA radar and PL-15 which will beat anything that India has but Rafale.

Do you know the best thing about JF-17 Block 3? It is less than half the price of Rafale and so the PAF could end up with 100, while India struggles with barely much more than the 36 it has already ordered.

If PAF needs it, they can always ask China for J-35s when available that will turn the IAF into a duck hunt for the PAF.

I really advise more research and less wet dreams going forward.

JF-17 blk till now has been a bluff,just rumours.We will see what it is when it actually comes.PL-15 is to be outmatched by meteor on rafale and matched by I-derby ER/Astra mk2 on other platforms.Will take western AAM over russian/chinese model anyday.
J-35 is again into the future.We have the rafales starting now with all delivered by end of next year.All s-400 delivered by 2022.Barak-8 also coming.Its tick tock time for PAF.