Why?

[magra]

the differentiation is not there....ask me in 15 years...if BD has thrice the GDP per capita than India then, and is committed to secularism then situation may look extremely different in West Bengal...Kolkata is the home of bengali renaissance....Upper class bengalis just cannot stand the bhaiyya types whose world begins with Ram mandir and ends with gaumutra.....whereas a significant portion of upperclass Bengalis are very much conversant with european enlightenment ideals, european scientific revolution, marxism etc...there is absolutely no such class in the bhaiyya belt...upper class means selling land to have custom lifted fat offroad tyred 4x4s there....if the cow belt keeps holding India back and Bangladesh becomes thrice or four times as rich as the average Indian...pandemonium will start happening in eastern wing....


@Baibars_1260 @Bilal9 @KedarT @yuba

Please open a separate thread for this discussion. Would join you there.

 

[Viva_Viet]

Sad but very true. How do we change or even try to correct this weakness/fallacy?

Keep asking your Gov't: "since when we can make 5G phone, morden electric vehicles like VN even they were destroyed during wars against France-US and CN in 1979 ?"

 

[Indus Pakistan]

When Pakistan becomes a secular, democratic country with scientific temper,

This will happen. It is not a question of "if" but when. Time has it's own dynamic. Even if it takes another century it will happen. My angst is that this does not need to be the long route. We could get to the destination faster but seeing the way things are it will take time. And yes what you said about India does carry traction.

At end of the day the clash is between reason and belief. That is what this is all about. If you have a society that places belief above reason the result will be what you see. If I am a Christian and I see Jesus in my prayers nobody can say to me otherwise. It is my belief. You can't reason with that. If I then decide to impose that on everybody all I am doing is impose my belief on others. I can dress that up as Islam or Christianity or Judaism. But at end of the day it is my belief. Religion in fact is from scientific PV a collective delusion. Where we all buy into this pyschosis.

You see this with the recent TLP thing. Everybody is at it. Trying to prove they are bigger lovers of the prophet [pbuh] then the rest. Saad Rizvi of course believes it is he who carries burden of Islam, PM IK thinks he does, Fawad Chaudry thinks he does and it all goes on and on. Non can prove or reason it. Some take the gun up like TTP.

When I saw the TLP supporters the first thing came in my mind was their equivalent in East Asia would probably be on the streets articulated by some socialist or communist movement asking for a new order for the poor and oppressed. That sort of movements would bring about change in the social order that you have seen in China, Vietnam and laid the foundation for a modern scientific society that places reason above beliefs, myths, supersitions etc.

But I saw some hope in sea of madness. I just read this

FIR lodged for 'dishonouring' Priest King at Mohenjo Daro

Case registered after photo of three visitors dishonouring the sculpture at archaeological site goes viral

FIR lodged for 'dishonouring' Priest King at Mohenjo Daro

Case registered after photo of three visitors dishonouring the sculpture at archaeological site goes viral

Three visitors can be seen 'dishonouring' King Priest at a site of Mohenjo Daro. PHOTO: EXPRESS

This gives hope to a more objective and open society in the future.

FIR lodged for 'dishonouring' Priest King at Mohenjo Daro | The Express Tribune

The case was registered after a photo of three visitors dishonouring the sculpture at archaeological site went viral on social media

tribune.com.pk

 

[Ghost Hobbit]

We r still communist nation, we r applying Lenin new economy policy now.

------'xx
Lenin characterized the NEP in 1922 as an economic system that would include "a free market and capitalism, both subject to state control," while socialized state enterprises would operate on "a profit basis."

New Economic Policy - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I think we should all stop pretending. Socialism does not work. We've suffered enough. We have liberalized and moving forward.

 

[Paul2]

Here is a interesting fact. Vietnam lost nearly million dead to US bombs and guns. That is more dead then any Muslim country has lost in the last 70 years. In other words Vietnam is the single biggest victim of US military power than any other country since WW2.

On the other hand Vietnam killed nearly 60,000 American military personnel. More Americans have died at the hands of Vietnamese then in any other war since WW2. If you count every American killed by every single Muslim country since WW2 the number is still 10 times less.

This means Vietnanese fought like lions and killed Americans on epic scale and the defeated them. No Muslim country has done this damage or fought so well or defeated the USA like Vietname did.

Although the other side of coin is Americans killed million Vietnames. By this measure the Vietnamese would be entitled to nurse the biggest hatred for America then any other. On the American side with 60,000 lost I could understand if America despised the Vietnames.

But why is it today the Vietnamese are such good friends with Americans who in turn also have a soft spot for Vietnam. Contrast this to the hate you see by many Pakistani's against USA when there is no historty of bloodbath like Viet/USA war.

The only thing Americans "got" right was their luck of not being Chinese.

 

[Dalit]

Keep asking your Gov't: "since when we can make 5G phone, morden electric vehicles like VN even they were destroyed during wars against France-US and CN in 1979 ?"

View attachment 735297
View attachment 735298

Pakistan has China on its side. We got nothing to worry. If our leaders stop pretending that the US is our savior we can get everything and anything we like through China.

Pakistan as a country was doing very well after its independence. Pakistan was industrialising very fast. When South Korea and Vietnam were literally poor as dirt. You know very little about Pakistan other than what Western and Indian media tells you. Unfortunately the US/West came along and we were short sighted. We joined the Western Cold War Jihad against USSR and we paid the price.

Luckily all that is changing now. Do you know why Western media lectures Pakistan on Chinese debt trap? It is because it is not debt trap, but investment that is beneficial for Pakistan.

Pakistan is going to prove to the world that regional cooperation can change fate.

 

[crankthatskunk]

Here is a interesting fact. Vietnam lost nearly million dead to US bombs and guns. That is more dead then any Muslim country has lost in the last 70 years. In other words Vietnam is the single biggest victim of US military power than any other country since WW2.

On the other hand Vietnam killed nearly 60,000 American military personnel. More Americans have died at the hands of Vietnamese then in any other war since WW2. If you count every American killed by every single Muslim country since WW2 the number is still 10 times less.

This means Vietnanese fought like lions and killed Americans on epic scale and the defeated them. No Muslim country has done this damage or fought so well or defeated the USA like Vietname did.

Although the other side of coin is Americans killed million Vietnames. By this measure the Vietnamese would be entitled to nurse the biggest hatred for America then any other. On the American side with 60,000 lost I could understand if America despised the Vietnames.

But why is it today the Vietnamese are such good friends with Americans who in turn also have a soft spot for Vietnam. Contrast this to the hate you see by many Pakistani's against USA when there is no historty of bloodbath like Viet/USA war.

This analysis is wrong on so many counts.
First of all on bravery part. Two things to consider. At the time of Vietnam war, the technology was basic.
Therefore, the Americans had air advantage, but nothing more than that.

Air Advantage was mitigated with the thick jungle terrain.
Most Americans died in the jungle terrain taken down by the Viet in Guerilla warfare.

Do you think the Iraq's have that chance!! Especially with very advance technology USA posses now.
The Iraqi had been siting ducks in the open deserts , picked by the air power.

If we look at the Taliban, they had little advantage of Mountain hideouts, they did better.
But barren mountains can still not hide you from air combat. It may shield you but not to the degree thick jungle terrain.
The Taliban still did lot of damage to the Americans to the degree they are leaving, may be not as many killed as in Vietnam but defeated in their purpose nevertheless.

Now to answer your second question about hatred of Americans or Americans hatred towards Muslims.
You have to remember USA is a Christian country, To a degree that they are ready to go with the Jews for the second coming of Jesus despite them blaming the Jews of hanging the "first coming" on the cross.
Despite knowing that Jewish Messiah is entirely different from Christian Messiah, that's why they rejected Jesus in his "first coming".

This factor alone is enough to explain the attitude. USA and to the same degree Europe would always be against Muslims, no matter what. it goes back to over 1000 years.

 

[KurtisBrian]

But why is it today the Vietnamese are such good friends with Americans who in turn also have a soft spot for Vietnam. Contrast this to the hate you see by many Pakistani's against USA when there is no historty of bloodbath like Viet/USA war.

perhaps the Vietnamese, like the Catholics, understand that the best way to kill your enemy is to get close to them. Catholics destroyed at least 3 civilizations in the Americas. Got nice and close to those people so they could poison them.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Pakistan has China on its side. We got nothing to worry. If our leaders stop pretending that the US is our savior we can get everything and anything we like through China.

Pakistan as a country was doing very well after its independence. Pakistan was industrialising very fast. When South Korea and Vietnam were literally poor as dirt. You know very little about Pakistan other than what Western and Indian media tells you. Unfortunately the US/West came along and we were short sighted. We joined the Western Cold War Jihad against USSR and we paid the price.

Luckily all that is changing now. Do you know why Western media lectures Pakistan on Chinese debt trap? It is because it is not debt trap, but investment that is beneficial for Pakistan.

Pakistan is going to prove to the world that regional cooperation can change fate.

Again you are mistaken ...Pakistan is faraway from the population centres and the GDP rich areas of China...faraway than even India...Land trade between Pakistan and China's Eastern seaboard would be prohibitively expensive....The only place with whom Pakistan can have a modicum of land trade is Xinjiang.....and the population of Xinjinag is too small and declining to support a nation of 220 million+ with imports.......I willing to bet that even now the sea trade between Pakistan and China far outstrips the land trade between Pakistan and China .....yes regional trade can transform Pakistan....but that regional trade will come from Iran,Afghanistan,India and Xinjiang....even the population of the stans is too small to support Pakistan's rise as an exporting superpower...look around you, instead of being blinkers on, and you will find plenty of eager overland trading partners

 

[Dalit]

Again you are mistaken ...Pakistan is faraway from the population centres and the GDP rich areas of China...faraway than even India...Land trade between Pakistan and China's Eastern seaboard would be prohibitively expensive....The only place with whom Pakistan can have a modicum of land trade is Xinjiang.....and the population of Xinjinag is too small and declining to support a nation of 220 million+ with imports.......I willing to bet that even now the sea trade between Pakistan and China far outstrips the land trade between Pakistan and China .....yes regional trade can transform Pakistan....but that regional trade will come from Iran,Afghanistan,India and Xinjiang....even the population of the stans is too small to support Pakistan's rise as an exporting superpower...look around you, instead of being blinkers on, and you will find plenty of eager overland trading partners

Blah blah blah. You think China and Pakistan are crazy to focus their energy on multi billion projects such as CPEC if the cons outweigh the pros? China Pak geography advantage couldn't be more economical and efficient. Stop being delusional. You Indians have another agenda. You simply don't like the idea of Pakistan having a strong ally like China on its side.

Who says that Xinjiang would be the only city in China that would conduct business with Pakistan? Stop daydreaming. China will use as many cities to conduct business with Pakistan. China Pakistan cooperation isn't confined to one city or region.

LOL at sea trade outstrips land trade between China and Pakistan. Stop ranting like a donkey. You don't even know the facts and are arguing with a Pakistani about Pak China related matters. It is like a Pakistani lecturing an Indian about his own country. Stop acting like a donkey. Your thoughts are wrong. First learn the facts before letting your mouth lose.

What can India possibly give to Pakistan that China cannot? China can give so much more to Pakistan and is already giving plenty. CPEC is living proof of that.

There is no doubt in my mind that Pakistan China trade through CPEC routes is going to transform the region. Let alone Pakistani fortunes.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Blah blah blah. You think China and Pakistan are crazy enough to focus their energy on multi billion projects such as CPEC if the cons outweigh the pros? China Pak geography advantage couldn't be more economical. Stop being delusional. You Indians have another agenda. You simply don't like the idea of Pakistan having a strong ally like China on its side.

50 Billion Dollars worth of infra projects cannot even start to make a dent in a country like Pakistan...Heck even 500 Billion dolars worth of Infra may not be enough....Pakistanis themselves have admitted, being a transit point can make a city state extremely advanced, but cannot make a huge nation extremely advanced




on top of that the trade between Pakistan and China is 90 percent tilted in favour of China


According to the same source, from January to December 2020, China’s imports from Pakistan stood at $2.12 billion whereas China’s exports to Pakistan were recorded at $15.36 billion.

Pakistan-China relations: Increasing bilateral trade | Special Report | thenews.com.pk

Pakistan and China have been historical trade partners with the balance of trade overwhelmingly in the favour of the latter

www.thenews.com.pk

Hahahaha if China really cared about Pakistan it would have set up manufacturing units in Pakistan to export back to China

 

[Azadkashmir]

I don think its secular or religious conservative but due to corruption/imf loans and ability to print your own currency debt free and barter trade international will bring up prosperity but then banks will not like it then west will target you.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

50 Billion Dollars worth of infra projects

To be honest most of that has gone on power projects. Transport infra has only been at best about $15 billion and I am being liberal. The trade between China and Pakistan on the KKH is so small that even a bunch of Indian cycle rickshawallahs would not be kept busy. The few trucks that ply the KKH almost always go back to China carry more fart gas in the trailers then and goods. This is fact.

The real potential is with West Asia and Central Asia. Meaning in order Iran, Afghanistan, Tajikstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kirghiztan, Azerbaijan. However for reasons of geo-politics and Islam that avenue is almost blocked. That is the real tragedy. Khyber Pakhtunkwa and Balochistan should have been gateways to the west like they were in history rather than frontiers.

And most of China lives on the Chinese Pacific seaboard which makes it even closer to India then Pakistan. Which is why 95% of trade with China will remain through sea ports.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

The real CPEC has alreasdy failed. The potential of CPEC was never in the hard concrete and tarmac. The real potential was soft. The possibility of Chinese cultural ingress into Pakistani society that would reshape Pakistani's into modern global citizens who would give priortry to trade. But the pseudo-religion mixed with the elite capture will not make space for this. Thus Chinese have not descended into Pakistan to invest, start companies or move their manufacturing units.

Certainly with TLP goons demanding jihad is not exactly what will attract China. Any doubts there are plenty of Chinese here. Ask them. Islam to the Chinese is as digestible as pork is to a Muslim. That is the brutal truth that they won't say but say in private in the present time.

@Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8

 

[Viva_Viet]

Pakistan has China on its side. We got nothing to worry. If our leaders stop pretending that the US is our savior we can get everything and anything we like through China.

Pakistan as a country was doing very well after its independence. Pakistan was industrialising very fast. When South Korea and Vietnam were literally poor as dirt. You know very little about Pakistan other than what Western and Indian media tells you. Unfortunately the US/West came along and we were short sighted. We joined the Western Cold War Jihad against USSR and we paid the price.

Luckily all that is changing now. Do you know why Western media lectures Pakistan on Chinese debt trap? It is because it is not debt trap, but investment that is beneficial for Pakistan.

Pakistan is going to prove to the world that regional cooperation can change fate.

CN is on your side ?? My friend, CN investors only care abt making profit like any investors in the World. CN investors are not even on CN side, they only want money. That's why CN Gov't has to punish Alibaba, Tencent etc now.

Stop deluding yourself. No one in your side if u can't help them get enough money. That's why Xiaomi is in India instead of Pakistan now bcs India market is much bigger than Pak.