Why the TTP is undefeatable

[KaiserX]

Since neither the funds nor the political will nor practical possibility exists to replicate the Israeli barrier at Gaza at the Afghanistan border - the only way is to increase education while targeting extremists both in society (removing extremist preachers) and a combination of reeducation camps and basic “removal” of the fringe elements. Kinetic operations against elements operating both in and out of Afghanistan while addressing immediate needs of people impacted by those influences in KP(Fata areas) and Balochistan.

Part of the issue is the “moral lines” where people are abducted en masse without understanding who is capable of being rehabilitated and who is not. A great example of using people’s fears and traditions against them is Brig Gen Bliss’s use of pigs blood and pigs skin to quell the idea of martyrdom within the local population. Use the same fears with the TTP because while their senior leadership will see through this their foot soldiers are dumb enough to be convinced that just getting killed and meeting this fate would make their martyr situation unholy.

Psyops is practically non existent - there arent any commando solos in the air broadcasting consistent anti TTP and anti BLA propaganda and instead handled all by word of mouth or corrupt civil servants.
This in turn requires tackling corruption because executing such programs is not doable if the grass roots system to execute it is corrupt as well. The military’s budget(which is now a hobsons choice) Will have to be reduced, convey a message plain and simple to India - send one airplane beyond the border and the nuclear weapons go alert 5 - public facilities for state functions reduced while white elephants like Pakistan International Airlines sold off.

Pakistan has more losses in ghost employees than anyone else but then I am dithering towards utopian ideals.

Long story short - this is a very complex mess that may or may not be beyond saving

I am sick and tired of hearing that education is the issue. Sorry for being blunt but that is incorrect. Its not an educational issue. Many many terrorist are well educated. Bin laden, Zawahiri, etc were more educated than you or I. Many foreign fighters are extremely educated. Many suicide bombers are very well educated.

It is not an educational issue. It is a religious and Islamic issue. Why is it that since the time of the prophet our first 4 caliphas were assasinated? A certain segment of the muslim population has always resorted to extremism. At that point it becomes our responsibility ti question things further than just simpleton excuses.

Islamic society today is more prone to violence, more prone to extremism and more prone to fraud/corruption. Is it because we can easily use Islam to make ourselves feel better as if we are washing away our sins? We must introspect at the messages that mullahs are teaching us and our children. Islam is a powerful belief held by weak petty men.

I am not saying that is the source, infact I might not even know the reason for so much extremism in muslim countries today, but excuses such as oh its lack of education lack of funds or colonialization just doesnt cut it at this point. There needs to be a large degree of interospection especially for Pakistani muslims. Example i can give is that pakistani sunnis will be most extreme sunnis and pakistani shias will be most extreme shias. Why do pakistanis always tend to lean towards extreme beliefs? Rather than moderate middle of the road path?

 

[TheSolution]

I have a solution but it is not easy and will cost the lives og possibly upto hundred thousand BUT it will help pakistan achieve its full development potential in 1-2 generation. The solution is to implement same attaturk policies as were implemented in turkey.

Ban islam in public. Including burka and headscarvs. Ban all religious groups/parties. Ban all religious education ezcept in select institutions ran by govt.

Dealing with terrorist. Bomb afghanistan. Within pak publically hang dozens of ttp fighters along with there families. Execute anyone with any involvement in terror. Execute all mullah or deport them to afghanistan.

Make urdu mandatory. Get rid of arabic alphabet to be replaced by english. Presidential system with governors in each province. Get rid of every british era colonial law. Get rid if every shariah islamic law. A single uniform law will be followed equally by everyone.

How to destroy Pakistan at the fastest pace

TTP would gain hundreds of thousands, even millions of fighters within a month, and Pakistan Army wouldn't even exist because soldiers would join them.

You would have to commit genocide apart from some parts of Islamabad, Lahore and Karachi to win this war.

Basically you'd have to kill 98% of the population just to implement this lmao

@Sayfullah

 

[Wolfhunter]

It has worked in turkey in china in many of the stans today. In quiet a few nations.

Except it’s not worked in China. I would recommend if you ever get the chance to speak to someone who hails from Urumqi - I’ve had the pleasure to meet a few in the UK over the years.

I mean me as a Protestant can testify that King Henry and the then rebel arch bishops decided to part ways with the Catholic Church in England to establish the Anglican Church through the readings of Martin Luther (not the black guy) and the King James Bible - the goal was to do away with Catholicism in England - never worked out.

Despite Kalam Ataturk’s grand vision- turkey has seen a resurgence of rose tinted oldies to remembrance the ottoman past of the Islamic Ottoman Empire in Turkey. Speaking to people outside Istanbul you get the impression- people in Turkey now more than ever want to bring back the “Islam”.

As for stans - even those nations born out of the collapse of the Soviet Union seem to have a pivot towards Islam - albeit a far more subdued version than the one we see in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh et.al.

Part of the reason is because of Saudi Influence in the latter counties. Which could be a point of exploitation for future debate.

 

[KaiserX]

How to destroy Pakistan at the fastest pace

TTP would gain hundreds of thousands, even millions of fighters within a month, and Pakistan Army wouldn't even exist because soldiers would join them.

You would have to commit genocide apart from some parts of Islamabad, Lahore and Karachi to win this war.

Basically you'd have to kill 98% of the population just to implement this lmao

@Sayfullah

Again I am not saying that is the solution. Maybe the reason for so much extremism in pak/afghanistan is due to zias extreme policies and to counter act that we need “extreme enlightenment” was my point.

Regardless there is 0 political will in our leadership infact they have gone back to begging TTP for negotiations while they kill our jawan every day. So this discussion is just for the sake of discussion. Our pathetic govt will run just like ghani regime did.

Except it’s not worked in China. I would recommend if you ever get the chance to speak to someone who hails from Urumqi - I’ve had the pleasure to meet a few in the UK over the years.

I mean me as a Protestant can testify that King Henry and the then rebel arch bishops decided to part ways with the Catholic Church in England to establish the Anglican Church through the readings of Martin Luther (not the black guy) and the King James Bible - the goal was to do away with Catholicism in England - never worked out.

Despite Kalam Ataturk’s grand vision- turkey has seen a resurgence of rose tinted oldies to remembrance the ottoman past of the Islamic Ottoman Empire in Turkey. Speaking to people outside Istanbul you get the impression- people in Turkey now more than ever want to bring back the “Islam”.

As for stans - even those nations born out of the collapse of the Soviet Union seem to have a pivot towards Islam - albeit a far more subdued version than the one we see in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh et.al.

Part of the reason is because of Saudi Influence in the latter counties. Which could be a point of exploitation for future debate.

I agree, but did turky remember its glorious islamic past until religion was weakened? Even today tirkey doesnt even see 1% of terrorism that pak does. So something must have worked. A

 

[Wolfhunter]

Again I am not saying that is the solution. Maybe the reason for so much extremism in pak/afghanistan is due to zias extreme policies and to counter act that we need “extreme enlightenment” was my point.

Regardless there is 0 political will in our leadership infact they have gone back to begging TTP for negotiations while they kill our jawan every day. So this discussion is just for the sake of discussion. Our pathetic govt will run just like ghani regime did.

I am definitely not qualified to offer any reasonable comment on this issue - but if Pakistan truly wanted to defeat the Taliban and completely break the spine of the militant fringes within its borders it certainly has all the wherewithal to do so.

After all Pakistan has one of the most battle hardened armies experienced in dealing with irregular warfare and counter insurgency operations anywhere on the planet.

The problem is the lack of will.

 

[SQ8]

I have a solution but it is not easy and will cost the lives og possibly upto hundred thousand BUT it will help pakistan achieve its full development potential in 1-2 generation. The solution is to implement same attaturk policies as were implemented in turkey.

Ban islam in public. Including burka and headscarvs. Ban all religious groups/parties. Ban all religious education ezcept in select institutions ran by govt.

Dealing with terrorist. Bomb afghanistan. Within pak publically hang dozens of ttp fighters along with there families. Execute anyone with any involvement in terror. Execute all mullah or deport them to afghanistan.

Make urdu mandatory. Get rid of arabic alphabet to be replaced by english. Presidential system with governors in each province. Get rid of every british era colonial law. Get rid if every shariah islamic law. A single uniform law will be followed equally by everyone.

While removing religious control from the masses makes sense, you can no longer replicate a Turkey in Pakistan. The state of culture is too rotten now to accept any of it. More importantly, Turkey still had a lot of European influence to it and could adapt due to it’s generally unified ethnicities and replacing them with a common language - Pakistan isn’t much of a single nation to begin with to try and implement this.

The religious monster that began with the Deobandi and other mullah migrants (of the napakistan variety) in the 50s have now fully gripped the uneducated and mostly ignorant educated classes of Pakistanis as well. You might as well burn half of Pakistanis alive if you want to get rid of that cancer. The best hope is to slowly take hold of this system and finish off this multiple school of thought aspect to confine it to scholarly studies only.

I am definitely not qualified to offer any reasonable comment on this issue - but if Pakistan truly wanted to defeat the Taliban and completely break the spine of the militant fringes within its borders it certainly has all the wherewithal to do so.

After all Pakistan has one of the most battle hardened armies experienced in dealing with irregular warfare and counter insurgency operations anywhere on the planet.

The problem is the lack of will.

Military solutions cannot fix a broken system and culture

 

[TheSolution]

I agree, but did turky remember its glorious islamic past until religion was weakened? Even today tirkey doesnt even see 1% of terrorism that pak does. So something must have worked.

The first thing about our case is that you need to understand the root causes of the insurgencies.

TTP is NOT purely an Islamic insurgency, it has Pashtun ethnofacism mixed into it, they have personal goals regarding their regions around ex-FATA and their tribal cultural codes.

The other groups like BLA/BRA are ethnic insurgencies - not rooted in religion at all.

Also about my religious policy suggestions - religious insurgencies their initial goal to gain support and recruitment is to convince people the state is anti-Islamic or murtad. If you are normalising things that even an average Muslim refuses to accept, you legitimise their narrative and give them power. This is where LGBT, Joyland, etc comes in.

Pakistan should not be giving such ammo like the above, because what else do you expect from an Islamic nation but to lash out against blatantly anti-Islamic laws. I think it's foolish not to recognise this.

 

[Wolfhunter]

While removing religious control from the masses makes sense, you can no longer replicate a Turkey in Pakistan. The state of culture is too rotten now to accept any of it. More importantly, Turkey still had a lot of European influence to it and could adapt due to it’s generally unified ethnicities and replacing them with a common language - Pakistan isn’t much of a single nation to begin with to try and implement this.

The religious monster that began with the Deobandi and other mullah migrants (of the napakistan variety) in the 50s have now fully gripped the uneducated and mostly ignorant educated classes of Pakistanis as well. You might as well burn half of Pakistanis alive if you want to get rid of that cancer. The best hope is to slowly take hold of this system and finish off this multiple school of thought aspect to confine it to scholarly studies only.


Military solutions cannot fix a broken system and culture

I’ve done some study of the deobandi school of thought and I have to agree, that you don’t have to look far to see where the problems for Pakistan started.

The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.

 

[KaiserX]

The first thing about our case is that you need to understand the root causes of the insurgencies.

TTP is NOT purely an Islamic insurgency, it has Pashtun ethnofacism mixed into it, they have personal goals regarding their regions around ex-FATA and their tribal cultural codes.

The other groups like BLA/BRA are ethnic insurgencies - not rooted in religion at all.

TTP/Taliban/ISIS and its off shoots including islamist parties are all extremist groups and terrorist. Stop sugar coating their association with islam. Certainly they may have some nationalistic pashtun vibes but in the end they dont die for their ethnicity.

Again pakys will always blame others or anything rather than themselves or their beliefs. Until the root of the problem is identified and dealt with terrorism will destroy pak. At this point I dont see pak surviving the next few years. Education isnt the issue, money isnt the issue, only religious terrorism is issue. Once thats resolved everythimg else can be

 

[Wolfhunter]

The first thing about our case is that you need to understand the root causes of the insurgencies.

TTP is NOT purely an Islamic insurgency, it has Pashtun ethnofacism mixed into it, they have personal goals regarding their regions around ex-FATA and their tribal cultural codes.

The other groups like BLA/BRA are ethnic insurgencies - not rooted in religion at all.

An excellent point and one that is often overlooked here on PDF. TTP can largely be negated by “onboarding” the pashtun community along the border with Afghanistan, although this is easier said than done.

Back in the 1800’s anywhere past what is present day Mardan was a no go zone where miscreants roamed and soldiers “go carefully”

Taken from my Great Grandfathers Album.

Balochistan is a different beast entirely. The reasons behind the emergence of the BLA and similar groups is fundamentally the genuine grievances of the local people, marginalised and ignored by the powerful centre.

The state allowed a vacuum to build which was quickly filled by the powerful local lords (or whatever you call them) and nothing was done to correct this.

What little I know, the killing of Bugti actually made matters worse. Balochistan is one area where the Pakistani state has truly failed a large segment of her people from inception.

 

[TheSolution]

The problem is the lack of will.

Pakistan completely fails at the narrative war which I touched upon in the post above.

If they could gain legitimacy on the religious narrative as stated above by the vast majority of people and scholars - TTP would be destroyed and their recruitment would significantly decrease.

 

[Wolfhunter]

TTP/Taliban/ISIS and its off shoots including islamist parties are all extremist groups and terrorist. Stop sugar coating their association with islam. Certainly they may have some nationalistic pashtun vibes but in the end they dont die for their ethnicity.

Again pakys will always blame others or anything rather than themselves or their beliefs. Until the root of the problem is identified and dealt with terrorism will destroy pak. At this point I dont see pak surviving the next few years. Education isnt the issue, money isnt the issue, only religious terrorism is issue. Once thats resolved everythimg else can be

At this point I dont see pak surviving the next few years.

Non of my business, but I’ve always maintained- Pakistan is too big to fail or collapse in the traditional sense.

 

[TheSolution]

TTP/Taliban/ISIS and its off shoots including islamist parties are all extremist groups and terrorist. Stop sugar coating their association with islam. Certainly they may have some nationalistic pashtun vibes but in the end they dont die for their ethnicity.

Again pakys will always blame others or anything rather than themselves or their beliefs. Until the root of the problem is identified and dealt with terrorism will destroy pak. At this point I dont see pak surviving the next few years. Education isnt the issue, money isnt the issue, only religious terrorism is issue. Once thats resolved everythimg else can be

You're just being ignorant here, study the history of the specific region and talk to the locals.

If you think I'm sugar coating then you're being straight up ignorant and foolish to disregard my points.

TTP has majorly tribal Pashtun recruitment, their demands are based on primarily the ex-FATA regions and they prioritise their tribal cultural code.

TTP is NOT purely Islamic. ISIS, Al Qaeda, etc are, but TTP has ethnic linkage.

And if you think BLA/BRA is Islamic then there's nothing to discuss and you have no clue what you're talking about.

At this point I dont see pak surviving the next few years. Education isnt the issue, money isnt the issue, only religious terrorism is issue. Once thats resolved everythimg else can be

Anyone looking at the demographics of Pakistan can tell you that ETHNO-NATIONALISM poses a significantly larger risk to Pakistan than religion.

 

[Wolfhunter]

You're just being ignorant here, study the history of the specific region and talk to the locals.

If you think I'm sugar coating then you're being straight up ignorant and foolish to disregard my points.

TTP has majorly tribal Pashtun recruitment, their demands are based on primarily the ex-FATA regions and they prioritise their tribal cultural code.

TTP is NOT purely Islamic. ISIS, Al Qaeda, etc are, but TTP has ethnic linkage.

And if you think BLA/BRA is Islamic then there's nothing to discuss and you have no clue what you're talking about.


Anyone looking at the demographics of Pakistan can tell you that ETHNO-NATIONALISM poses a significantly larger risk to Pakistan than religion.

ETHNO-NATIONALISM

 

[KaiserX]

You're just being ignorant here, study the history of the specific region and talk to the locals.

If you think I'm sugar coating then you're being straight up ignorant and foolish to disregard my points.

TTP has majorly tribal Pashtun recruitment, their demands are based on primarily the ex-FATA regions and they prioritise their tribal cultural code.

TTP is NOT purely Islamic. ISIS, Al Qaeda, etc are, but TTP has ethnic linkage.

And if you think BLA/BRA is Islamic then there's nothing to discuss and you have no clue what you're talking about.

TTP isnt only issue. If you think TTP isnt the ideological twin of taliban/AQ/Isis then you need help. They are all terrorist with different names who follow same ideology. I never said bla was islamic. My point was like other extremist groups much of BLAs leadership and cadre are very well educated and many from affluent families. Thus refuting the claim that the lack of education is due to terrorism.

Just last year a very educated female suicide bomber blew herself up with chinese in karachi. Her whole family was extremely well educated. Dr afia siddique was extremely well wducated yet was roaming with terrorist in afghanistan.

Pakistan used to be to big to fail but at this poijt key allies like ksa and usa have almost given up. Bangladesh has a lot more economic valye than you. How many suicide bombings or terrorism does bangladwsh have??? Are you going to waie up when bangladeshs GDP is 2-4 times paks size? For you people to finqlly realize how much extremism has penetrated your brains that you dont know right from wrong.

Again many years ago i warned that if terrorism isnt resolved soon even BD will surpass pak in economy within a few years. That was 8 years ago. Today i am telling u BD will have double our economy if you dont mend your ways. No one wants to build a factory only for a stupid terrorist to blow themselves up with it.