Why the hatred for India is so sublime than vice versa...are Pakistanis more civilized

[Politico]

If what you say is true then it means that indians are a slave/worker race with a hive mentality. Petulant children who always need to be told what to do.

In a simplistic manner that would aptly apply to the poor and working class Indians. Then again, look at the USA. Isn't that the perils of a large democracy? I would certainly think so

 

[Nilgiri]

You mean Bangladesh? People of Bangladesh love Pakistan more than India LOL

Yes whatever floats your boat. I will now have a relook (maybe you can too) at their mobs jeering your POWs loaded into trains and boats from distance (thanks to indian army enforcing seperation as terms of PA surrender...otherwise who knows what would happen). BBC footage, have a look sometime and think to yourself when you compare basic discourse in BD.

They are celebrated mobs, many are their political leadership and bureaucracy now....many guaranteeing a 95% verdict in election too for current BD govt. But you can focus in on whichever other groups and extrapolate to total to your hearts desire....but we know you wont visit BD to actually go and ask enough people on ground.

But no (to your question), I am talking about Indian muslims specifically in India.

Who was the leader in Indian Kashmir before and after 1971...and how did his bargaining position change specifically (with federal Indian PM) because of it (muslim army doing that to muslim people in Bengal)?...what did he do afterwards specifically? You know any of this? Doubt you do.

It has lingering and permanent imprint on larger indian muslims today. Muhajir snooping and stronk-extrapolation and reporting back in some echo chamber does not factor into this, sorry.

Where it actually shows in the actual final foot movement prevalence of "oppressed" in both sides of border....and how those political entities themselves changed name all so "neatly" too. Lot of psyche underneath it all.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Indian Muslims would have only been able to form governments in the provinces that now comprise Pakistan.

Almost all of them under Congress Rule

 

[Politico]

Imran Khan came to power because the Pakistan military wanted him to come to power. They stage-managed everything, from getting 'electables' to move to his party, to damaging PML-N in savoury and unsavoury ways.

You have no central organization that can do those things in India. All the PMs, except for Gandhis, have risen because of great political skills, cunning and managing electorate (bad aspect).

Let's not comment based on rumours about PM Khan. There's no tangible evidence about those claims as there remains no tangible evidence that India killed 2 000 Kashmiris today. The rest of your post is effectively what I said earlier

 

[Robbie]

Let's not comment based on rumours about PM Khan. There's no tangible evidence about those claims as there remains no tangible evidence that India killed 2 000 Kashmiris today. The rest of your post is effectively what I said earlier

If you go by those rules then nothing will ever be proven in Pakistan and even direct military dictatorships would become legitimate because officially elections were conducted.

With Pakistan, most intellectual commentators of calibre have pointed out that the military has chosen and successfully executed a new way to rule - soft coup againt Nawaz Sharif. The video of the judge who sentenced Nawaz was enlightening.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Imran Khan came to power because the Pakistan military wanted him to come to power. They stage-managed everything, from getting 'electables' to move to his party, to damaging PML-N in savoury and unsavoury ways.

This is really interesting @AgNoStiC MuSliM . I have seen this phenomenon among our Indian friends where they all pretend to be experts on Pakistan compared to people like us who actually live on the ground. I remember meeting an Indian in Dallas 2015 and he was absolutely obsessed with Pakistan. He was telling me how my views were completely wrong on Pakistan's politics and that he knows more about our politics because he researches online. Upon inquiring what all his online sources were, he said they were all Indian newspapers and commentators. I literally had no response to that and just looked at his face. The same attitude is prevalent on Twitter and this Forum.

@Robbie Don't take this the wrong way but you need to do research, and by research i mean independent research rather then listening to what Arnab Goswami or General Bakshi say. Fire up those creative juices in your brain, and take away the Indian lens you wear on your glasses.

With Pakistan, most intellectual commentators of calibre have pointed out that the military has chosen and successfully executed a new way to rule - soft coup againt Nawaz Sharif. The video of the judge who sentenced Nawaz was enlightening.

And who are those intellectual commentators? Arnab Goswami or General Bakshi?

 

[Nilgiri]

I think that you are overstretching the reality. Pakistan has expressed regret over its actions in Bangladesh as correctly pointed out earlier by Agnostic Muslim. If not the political leadership in uncertain terms then certainly a large portion of its academics and its ruling elite. Even my father in law, a rabid Pakistani hater, believes that the Pakistani Hindus who came into India were being opportunistic with unrealistic expectations.

I appreciate the bridge you provide in this forum...and lot of insight you give (love reading lot of it, and hope you do share more).

Expressing regret is not really substitute for declassifying the commission report and coming clean (based on your own state's investigation)...that too this downstream in time.

If Pakistani political elite (and these are mostly military fellows in end still when you peel layers away), truly "regret" it...what is there to keep classified then?

If larger Pakistani people also truly regret it (in enough number and are in position to do something)....what is to stop them putting pressure to get the full story released from own state investigation?

I am just telling you what are basic preconditions (its my opinion) to have something of a moral ground shaped up for further analysis on this matter, given Pakistan is first of all now a 95% homogeneous (by religion its founded on) and officially allies itself with this religion (Islam) whereas India by same religious standard is 78% homogeneous (at best) and allies itself with nothing religion-wise (It is Secular republic).

Otherwise we simply rather (and frankly ought to) listen more to our actual peers in the world....for actual consistency and credibility in the argument.

As for why Pakistani Hindus did come and set up, maybe there is some opportunism there sure...but there is also actual grievance with Pakistani society and state too.

And why none of the reverse for even 1 indian muslim (of the minority of them that supposedly, and I stress the supposedly.... love/ally with Pakistan more than India)....if things have been so bad, are so bad or going to get so bad for them (relatively speaking as they see it).

Neither do they flee to BD (in fact from BD given looser porous border situation we see tons of BD muslims having come to India illegally).

They (Indian muslims) always in the end make their stand in India.

A cursory examination of their best leaders like Owaisi will tell you why quite quickly.

 

[Politico]

If you go by those rules then nothing will ever be proven in Pakistan and even direct military dictatorships would become legitimate because officially elections were conducted.

With Pakistan, most intellectual commentators of calibre have pointed out that the military has chosen and successfully executed a new way to rule - soft coup againt Nawaz Sharif. The video of the judge who sentenced Nawaz was enlightening.

Why do Indians insist that everything relating to Pakistan, including the time which Pakistanis claim that the sun rises in their country, must be some military inspired conspiracy ?

That judge in the Sharif matter was an embarrassment. His ill founded verdict certainly doesn't indict PM Khan now does it?

@Robbie Don't take this the wrong way but you need to do research, and by research i mean independent research rather then listening to what Arnab Goswami or General Bakshi say

Hilarious. Simply hilarious

 

[Nilgiri]

@Joe Shearer @scorpionx @jbgt90 you may want to give your opinions on last few pages discussion if you feel like it.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Imran Khan came to power because the Pakistan military wanted him to come to power. They stage-managed everything, from getting 'electables' to move to his party, to damaging PML-N in savoury and unsavoury ways.

You have no central organization that can do those things in India. All the PMs, except for Gandhis, have risen because of great political skills, cunning and managing electorate (bad aspect).

The ‘electables’ are electables for a reason. They shift loyalties to whichever political party the winds appear to be blowing more favorably for.

Sharif has only himself to blame for being disqualified, and once he was disqualified, there was only one other party that could give it a fight in Punjab - the PTI. The PTI’s decent performance in KP meant a re-election there was a solid bet.

The PPP has long been relegated to its feudal stronghold of Sindh so there was little it could do. Karachi, with Altaf Hussain out of the picture, gave the PTI more seats from Sindh.

The PTI won fair and square. The opinion polls in Pakistan leading up to the elections forecast the same results. The election observers declared the elections just as, if not more, fair as the previous ones.

Yes there were some complaints about issues during voting (there always are) but nothing significant enough to change the results. Dawn made a huge deal out of its ‘newspapers being blocked in various neighborhoods’, but it’s absurd to think that blocking an English language newspaper in a few neighborhoods changed the voting results in a country where the number of people reading the English language Dawn is ridiculously small.

 

[Robbie]

@Robbie Don't take this the wrong way but you need to do research, and by research i mean independent research rather then listening to what Arnab Goswami or General Bakshi say. Fire up those creative juices in your brain, and take away the Indian lens you wear on your glasses.
And who are those intellectual commentators?

Thank you for that. I don't consume my Pakistani information from Indians. Of the top of my head, international institutes like Hudson Insitute, Heritage foundation or for Pakistanis, Najam Sethi, Cyril Almeida, Shuja Nawaz among many others.

My views have been formed by collation of views of Pakistani journalists, international scholars. You are free to dismiss them because some Indian you met in Dallas got his information from x/y/z.

EDIT: My apology, I wasn't accurate in saying that I don't consume my Pakistani information from Indians. I do consume information about Pakistan from Indian think tank ORF.

@Politico

Why do Indians insist that everything relating to Pakistan, including the time which Pakistanis claim that the sun rises in their country, must be some military inspired conspiracy ?

Because of the great work done by people like Ayesha Siddiqa, journalists who have not toed the establishment line have been shot at. These paint us a very detailed picture of the Pakistani Army and its primacy in Pakistan. There are many Indians who take the time to do research - both in the Government and outside. We do have a well-growing think tank culture in India (finally).

You are making the mistake of generalizing Indians.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Why do Indians insist that everything relating to Pakistan, including the time which Pakistanis claim that the sun rises in their country, must be some military inspired conspiracy ?

The Indian hatred for Khan is more due to him being pro-military and unabashedly nationalistic/patriotic, with the speaking skills to promote Pakistan’s case and criticize India.

They were much more comfortable with corrupt, mumbling, dissembling Pakistani leaders like Sharif & Zardari, especially because both of them were seen as having issues with the military. Allowed a lot of untarnished spinning by the Indian commentators (and Anti-Army Pakistani ones) about how the machinations of the Pakistani Army against the civilian government, therefore allowing a broader anti-Army narrative to be built up.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

In a simplistic manner that would aptly apply to the poor and working class Indians. Then again, look at the USA. Isn't that the perils of a large democracy? I would certainly think so

The USA along with China are superpowers. india is anything but.

 

[Robbie]

The Indian hatred for Khan is more due to him being pro-military and unabashedly nationalistic/patriotic, with the speaking skills to promote Pakistan’s case and criticize India.

They were much more comfortable with corrupt, mumbling, dissembling Pakistani leaders like Sharif & Zardari, especially because both of them were seen as having issues with the military. Allowed a lot of untarnished spinning by the Indian commentators (and Anti-Army Pakistani ones) about how the machinations of the Pakistani Army against the civilian government, therefore allowing a broader anti-Army narrative to be built up.

If you are referring to me, it would be quite a tragedy if you mistook my pointing out that Imran Khan has not been fairly elected for any hatred. I don't have any hatred or love for Imran Khan any more than Nawaz Sharif or Zardari or Z.A Bhutto.

The context of their rise and workings, IoU's, among other aspects gives a better ability to judge their capacity, dependencies, and limitations. This is valuable information.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

If Pakistani political elite (and these are mostly military fellows in end still when you peel layers away), truly "regret" it...what is there to keep classified then?

Reports are kept classified by various nations based on their determination of the impact on national security and national interest. In this case, Pakistan's history of military intervention and conflicts with elected governments, in conjunction with the continued threat posed by India, has meant that parts of the report have remained classified to protect the military.

Keeping the report classified has not changed the coverage of the events in 1971 in the Pakistani media, academia etc. It has not changed the fact that people regret the events that happened and that the lessons from 1971 continue to be debated and discussed in Pakistan.