Why the hatred for India is so sublime than vice versa...are Pakistanis more civilized

[Robbie]

Pakistan's actions occurred in the midst of an ongoing war against India and internally against a terrorist organization that was involved in its own atrocities against West Pakistanis, Biharis and pro-Pakistani Bengalis in the span of a few months. I'm not by any means saying those actions were acceptable, but there was a context & limited time frame in which they occurred.

India's occupation of J&K is going on 7 plus decades, and India and many Indians show absolutely no signs of basic human decency in supporting (at least in principle) the peaceful settlement of a dispute by letting the Kashmiris vote in a UN led referendum and choose between independence, India or Pakistan.

Most Pakistanis recognize that any atrocities committed by the Pakistani Army or other pro-Pakistan groups in 1971 were unacceptable and will criticize the refusal of Bhutto and other Pakistani leaders to share power with East Pakistani leaders and accept the election results.

Where is India's acceptance of her wrongs? Where is India & Indian's acceptance of the moral, just and democratic principal of plebiscite to resolve the J&K dispute and an end to occupation?

So long as Indians cannot even bring themselves to support the principle of a UN held plebiscite, you can't talk about basic human decency and compare yourselves to Pakistanis. Most Pakistanis have accepted the mistakes made in 1971 (our media & academic discourse is full of references to 1971 and what repercussions mistakes such as those made in 1971 can bring) - India still has not accepted, let alone rectify, her faults in J&K.

Pakistan's actions did not occur in the midst of a war with India. The war with India started after the, to borrow Pakistanis word, genocide on Bengalis.

I also find the double standards interesting. You mention Pakistan's actions against 'terrorists'. You reject the same statement from Indians. It is literally the same. India acts with lethal force against terrorists who have been involved in atrocities against other Indians (namely Kashmiri Pandits, but also others).

In essence, what I see is that you are quick to pardon your sins and readily come up with 'context' that in your mind justifies the situation without affording others the same courtesy.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I also find the double standards interesting. You mention Pakistan's actions against 'terrorists'. You reject the same statement from Indians. It is literally the same. India acts with lethal force against terrorists who have been involved in atrocities against other Indians (namely Kashmiri Pandits, but also others).

In essence, what I see is that you are quick to pardon your sins and readily come up with 'context' that in your mind justifies the situation without affording others the same courtesy.

No, what is interesting is your distortion of what I said. Let me state it again:

Most Pakistanis recognize that any atrocities committed by the Pakistani Army or other pro-Pakistan groups in 1971 were unacceptable and will criticize the refusal of Bhutto and other Pakistani leaders to share power with East Pakistani leaders and accept the election results.

Where is India's acceptance of her wrongs? Where is India & Indian's acceptance of the moral, just and democratic principal of plebiscite to resolve the J&K dispute and an end to occupation?

So long as Indians cannot even bring themselves to support the principle of a UN held plebiscite, you can't talk about basic human decency and compare yourselves to Pakistanis. Most Pakistanis have accepted the mistakes made in 1971 (our media & academic discourse is full of references to 1971 and what repercussions mistakes such as those made in 1971 can bring) - India still has not accepted, let alone rectify, her faults in J&K.

 

[Robbie]

Adding 'foreigners/people from outside a particular ethnically/religious homogeneous region impacts the demographic balance artificially.

The Maharajah in J&K already altered the demographics significantly by turning the Muslim majority in Jammu to a Muslim minority through his genocide against the Muslim residents there (events which led to the tribal invasion in 1947).

If the ethnic and religious balance is changed in J&K through migration without the consent of the locals, that is demographic genocide.

And even without that particular factor, Indians that do not support the principle of plebiscite have no room to be criticizing Pakistanis over events from 50 years ago. The Indian occupation of J&K is in the present - Indian atrocities, lockdowns and oppression is in the present.

Yes, so long as Indians refuse to support the principle of a UN led plebiscite in occupied J&K, Pakistanis ARE more civilized and more decent human beings.

Allegations of what the Maharaja did is not Indian concern. Nothing special has been done for J&K, there is no targeted effort to bring in people of a particular ethnicity or religion.

What has been done is made J&K open like any other state of India. What the removal of A370 means is that anyone who chooses to can work there and live there. They could be of any religion or ethnicity. Govt. of India does not control migration itself. That is bringing migration in line with what exists in other states. Any Indian from Kerala can choose to work and live in MP, Maharashtra, Delhi, Bihar and now J&K. That is not 'artificially' changing the demography.

There are other benefits as well though I don't think people here care about them - like harmonization of laws, reservations for the poor, removal of J&K's misogynist laws.

Having said that, I don't know whether GoI will be open to a plebiscite in the future. Maybe they will be 5 decades down the line.

 

[Politico]

Could I respectfully ask you some questions and ask for your input?

We have all seen the emerging India, the CAA protests, Babri, Shaheen Bagh, Delhi riots, hindutva police and even a communal pandemic

Not one day goes by without some example of what a communal shithole India has become


Even poor migrants trying to get home becomes a communal battle amongst Indians


I assume your inlaws/husband are affluent or at least middle class

How are they viewing all this?

What do they think about their future?

Have they woken up to the threat of hindutva?

Have they woken up to Jinnahs message??


Across SM Indian Muslims have seemed to have woken up and I and others are very active in trying to formulate a plan and guide them on the next steps


But I would like your inputs on your observance as a outsider on the inside amongst Indian Muslims

Thank you

Salaams.

My family is a rare breed if I might say so myself. I am not entirely Pakistani, which is the mistake @padamchen seems to make. I am a British citizen whose father is of Indian origin and mother Pakistani origin. And before anybody asks, my father is Muslim and so were generations of both my parents. In fact my paternal great grandfather and the founding father of Pakistan, Quaid e Azam were friends whilst Mr Jinnah resided in India. They differed politically but were friends nonetheless.

My parents met and were married in the early 1980s when there was much love between Pakistanis and Indians. Then Mumbai happened and since then my father and his Indian kin and friends hate Pakistan with a passion. My father has done very well in the UK thanks to spices and clothing material from Mumbai which remains in demand in the UK. I am married to a Gujarati Muslim businessman whose family has also done extremely well both in the UK and in India. My father - in - law is a high ranking member of the BJP in Gujarat ..shock shock to my Pakistani friends. Given this background, my observations of Indians and Pakistanis are constrained to the upper middle class and wealthy ones.

I find Pakistanis to be more open with their views on Indians. Put simply they either hate or love Indians. Most fall on the side of love even with the current political scenario. And Pakistanis are open with their views. No bhai-bhai when together and insults when apart. It is either that they like you or they don't and they generally don't disguise their feelings when with you.

Indians on the other hand are duplicitous on most accounts. If they are trading with you, they praise you to the hilt but curse you and your country the moment your back is turned to them, notably with Pakistanis. To them only a fellow Indian matters and all else can go to hell.


Now to answer your questions against the background given to you:-

The communal violence and riots you witness on television are orchestrated in most instances. They are stage manned by those who wish to gain some political advantage in their area using the unemployed, poor or goons from the working class. It is not unusual for Hindus and Muslims or Muslims/Hindus etc to collude with each other to stage a riot or incite violence on the understanding that the area will be split on certain lines of influence. India is not a democracy in the true sense of the word. It is a mafia operation of small political wards or areas which join up to form or support political parties for reward. Internally there remains much religious, ideological or demographic strife but on a state and national basis you would find a ganging up mentality. Muslim organisations such as AIMS would support the BJP for some reward or another.

My husband and in laws are a leading business family in India. They have fared much better under BJP rule than under Congress rule. Then again, my father who is apolitical claims that his business in the UK has done much better under BJP rule due to the relaxation or red tape. Hindutva politics had no effect on them, their workers (including Muslim ones) and their business operations.

My in laws believe that their future is secured in India. To them India is their land.

Jinnah is a contentious discussion amongst Indian Muslims. Many despise him for removing the advantage which Muslims had in British India. They accuse him of having acted selfishly and been outsmarted by Nehru. These are not my views. I don't know much about the man. The circle of Muslims I associate with in India are warmly welcomed at functions which I attended, strangely even by ones predominantly attended by BJP leaders.

I don't know what the abbreviation "SM" is. If you are trying to "help" Indian Muslims by inciting them to rise up against the Indian establishment then good luck to you. They are most likely to gather any arms which you give them and use it to storm the Pakistani embassy. A Christian girl at some political event attended to mostly by Muslims chanted Pakistan Zindabad and the police had to whisk her away from a clearly angry Muslim mob. Such is the mentality of Indians which I referred to earlier. They are divided as broken glass on regional issues but united as glue on national issues.

Hope that helps

No, what is interesting is your distortion of what I said. Let me state it again:

Most Pakistanis recognize that any atrocities committed by the Pakistani Army or other pro-Pakistan groups in 1971 were unacceptable and will criticize the refusal of Bhutto and other Pakistani leaders to share power with East Pakistani leaders and accept the election results.

Where is India's acceptance of her wrongs? Where is India & Indian's acceptance of the moral, just and democratic principal of plebiscite to resolve the J&K dispute and an end to occupation?

So long as Indians cannot even bring themselves to support the principle of a UN held plebiscite, you can't talk about basic human decency and compare yourselves to Pakistanis. Most Pakistanis have accepted the mistakes made in 1971 (our media & academic discourse is full of references to 1971 and what repercussions mistakes such as those made in 1971 can bring) - India still has not accepted, let alone rectify, her faults in J&K.

With respect, Pakistanis accepted their fault lines with regards to Bangladesh after they lost Bangladesh. Hopefully when India relinquishes Kashmir, they will likewise reflect on their past deeds

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Allegations of what the Maharaja did is not Indian concern. Nothing special has been done for J&K, there is no targeted effort to bring in people of a particular ethnicity or religion.

What has been done is made J&K open like any other state of India. What the removal of A370 means is that anyone who chooses to can work there and live there. They could be of any religion or ethnicity. Govt. of India does not control migration itself. That is bringing migration in line with what exists in other states. Any Indian from Kerala can choose to work and live in MP, Maharashtra, Delhi, Bihar and now J&K. That is not 'artificially' changing the demography.

There are other benefits as well though I don't think people here care about them - like harmonization of laws, reservations for the poor, removal of J&K's misogynist laws.

Having said that, I don't know whether GoI will be open to a plebiscite in the future. Maybe they will be 5 decades down the line.

None of which addresses the basic principle of letting the millions of people of occupied J&K vote in a UN led plebiscite to choose between independence, India or Pakistan - a peaceful means to end occupation and conflict for over 70 years.

If you can't support that, then you have no business arguing against Pakistanis for claiming to be more decent and civilized human beings.

 

[Fledgingwings]

And most of them with an expat accent.

Your burger bacchas.

What about indians scattered all across the globe for the Daal roti of their families ?? They indeed have accents too.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

With respect, Pakistanis accepted their fault lines with regards to Bangladesh after they lost Bangladesh. Hopefully when India relinquishes Kashmir, they will likewise reflect on their past deeds

One can only hope - but to correct one's misdeeds one needs to first recognize and accept that one is wrong. I don't see that acceptance of wrongdoing occurring in Indian society.

If anything, they appear to be going in the opposite direction, of perpetrating a demographic genocide in J&K.

 

[Politico]

One can only hope - but to correct one's misdeeds one needs to first recognize and accept that one is wrong. I don't see that acceptance of wrongdoing occurring in Indian society.

If anything, they appear to be going in the opposite direction, of perpetrating a demographic genocide in J&K.

All oppressors, including West Pakistan in then East Pakistan neither recognized their misdeeds when carrying out those misdeeds nor accepted their wrongdoing. Evident from history spanning the beginning of time, regret only sets in upon the oppressor once the oppressed becomes victorious. To expect the Indians to act otherwise is being unfair on them

 

[PakistaniJunior]

Salaams.

My family is a rare breed if I might say so myself. I am not entirely Pakistani, which is the mistake @padamchen seems to make. I am a British citizen whose father is of Indian origin and mother Pakistani origin. And before anybody asks, my father is Muslim and so were generations of both my parents. In fact my paternal great grandfather and the founding father of Pakistan, Quaid e Azam were friends whilst Mr Jinnah resided in India. They differed politically but were friends nonetheless.

My parents met and were married in the early 1980s when there was much love between Pakistanis and Indians. Then Mumbai happened and since then my father and his Indian kin and friends hate Pakistan with a passion. My father has done very well in the UK thanks to spices and clothing material from Mumbai which remains in demand in the UK. I am married to a Gujarati Muslim businessman whose family has also done extremely well both in the UK and in India. My father - in - law is a high ranking member of the BJP in Gujarat ..shock shock to my Pakistani friends. Given this background, my observations of Indians and Pakistanis are constrained to the upper middle class and wealthy ones.

I find Pakistanis to be more open with their views on Indians. Put simply they either hate or love Indians. Most fall on the side of love even with the current political scenario. And Pakistanis are open with their views. No bhai-bhai when together and insults when apart. It is either that they like you or they don't and they generally don't disguise their feelings when with you.

Indians on the other hand are duplicitous on most accounts. If they are trading with you, they praise you to the hilt but curse you and your country the moment your back is turned to them, notably with Pakistanis. To them only a fellow Indian matters and all else can go to hell.


Now to answer your questions against the background given to you:-

The communal violence and riots you witness on television are orchestrated in most instances. They are stage manned by those who wish to gain some political advantage in their area using the unemployed, poor or goons from the working class. It is not unusual for Hindus and Muslims or Muslims/Hindus etc to collude with each other to stage a riot or incite violence on the understanding that the area will be split on certain lines of influence. India is not a democracy in the true sense of the word. It is a mafia operation of small political wards or areas which join up to form or support political parties for reward. Internally there remains much religious, ideological or demographic strife but on a state and national basis you would find a ganging up mentality. Muslim organisations such as AIMS would support the BJP for some reward or another.

My husband and in laws are a leading business family in India. They have fared much better under BJP rule than under Congress rule. Then again, my father who is apolitical claims that his business in the UK has done much better under BJP rule due to the relaxation or red tape. Hindutva politics had no effect on them, their workers (including Muslim ones) and their business operations.

My in laws believe that their future is secured in India. To them India is their land.

Jinnah is a contentious discussion amongst Indian Muslims. Many despise him for removing the advantage which Muslims had in British India. They accuse him of having acted selfishly and been outsmarted by Nehru. These are not my views. I don't know much about the man. The circle of Muslims I associate with in India are warmly welcomed at functions which I attended, strangely even by ones predominantly attended by BJP leaders.

I don't know what the abbreviation "SM" is. If you are trying to "help" Indian Muslims by inciting them to rise up against the Indian establishment then good luck to you. They are most likely to gather any arms which you give them and use it to storm the Pakistani embassy. A Christian girl at some political event attended to mostly by Muslims chanted Pakistan Zindabad and the police had to whisk her away from a clearly angry Muslim mob. Such is the mentality of Indians which I referred to earlier. They are divided as broken glass on regional issues but united as glue on national issues.

Hope that helps



With respect, Pakistanis accepted their fault lines with regards to Bangladesh after they lost Bangladesh. Hopefully when India relinquishes Kashmir, they will likewise reflect on their past deeds

I'd like to ask a question with no malicious intent and it is purely just curiosity. If your father is Indian and your mother is Pakistani, while you yourself are married to a Indian,and most of your involvement is more with India than Pakistan. Then why did you chose a Pakistani flag as your flag of origin?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Salaams.

My family is a rare breed if I might say so myself. I am not entirely Pakistani, which is the mistake @padamchen seems to make. I am a British citizen whose father is of Indian origin and mother Pakistani origin. And before anybody asks, my father is Muslim and so were generations of both my parents. In fact my paternal great grandfather and the founding father of Pakistan, Quaid e Azam were friends whilst Mr Jinnah resided in India. They differed politically but were friends nonetheless.

My parents met and were married in the early 1980s when there was much love between Pakistanis and Indians. Then Mumbai happened and since then my father and his Indian kin and friends hate Pakistan with a passion. My father has done very well in the UK thanks to spices and clothing material from Mumbai which remains in demand in the UK. I am married to a Gujarati Muslim businessman whose family has also done extremely well both in the UK and in India. My father - in - law is a high ranking member of the BJP in Gujarat ..shock shock to my Pakistani friends. Given this background, my observations of Indians and Pakistanis are constrained to the upper middle class and wealthy ones.

I find Pakistanis to be more open with their views on Indians. Put simply they either hate or love Indians. Most fall on the side of love even with the current political scenario. And Pakistanis are open with their views. No bhai-bhai when together and insults when apart. It is either that they like you or they don't and they generally don't disguise their feelings when with you.

Indians on the other hand are duplicitous on most accounts. If they are trading with you, they praise you to the hilt but curse you and your country the moment your back is turned to them, notably with Pakistanis. To them only a fellow Indian matters and all else can go to hell.


Now to answer your questions against the background given to you:-

The communal violence and riots you witness on television are orchestrated in most instances. They are stage manned by those who wish to gain some political advantage in their area using the unemployed, poor or goons from the working class. It is not unusual for Hindus and Muslims or Muslims/Hindus etc to collude with each other to stage a riot or incite violence on the understanding that the area will be split on certain lines of influence. India is not a democracy in the true sense of the word. It is a mafia operation of small political wards or areas which join up to form or support political parties for reward. Internally there remains much religious, ideological or demographic strife but on a state and national basis you would find a ganging up mentality. Muslim organisations such as AIMS would support the BJP for some reward or another.

My husband and in laws are a leading business family in India. They have fared much better under BJP rule than under Congress rule. Then again, my father who is apolitical claims that his business in the UK has done much better under BJP rule due to the relaxation or red tape. Hindutva politics had no effect on them, their workers (including Muslim ones) and their business operations.

My in laws believe that their future is secured in India. To them India is their land.

Jinnah is a contentious discussion amongst Indian Muslims. Many despise him for removing the advantage which Muslims had in British India. They accuse him of having acted selfishly and been outsmarted by Nehru. These are not my views. I don't know much about the man. The circle of Muslims I associate with in India are warmly welcomed at functions which I attended, strangely even by ones predominantly attended by BJP leaders.

I don't know what the abbreviation "SM" is. If you are trying to "help" Indian Muslims by inciting them to rise up against the Indian establishment then good luck to you. They are most likely to gather any arms which you give them and use it to storm the Pakistani embassy. A Christian girl at some political event attended to mostly by Muslims chanted Pakistan Zindabad and the police had to whisk her away from a clearly angry Muslim mob. Such is the mentality of Indians which I referred to earlier. They are divided as broken glass on regional issues but united as glue on national issues.

Hope that helps



With respect, Pakistanis accepted their fault lines with regards to Bangladesh after they lost Bangladesh. Hopefully when India relinquishes Kashmir, they will likewise reflect on their past deeds

Thank you for sharing so much of your background.

I am curious - between your father and your husband, it would appear that your familial links are skewed towards India, yet you display a Pakistani and British flag.

And you didn't mention much about your mother's views, especially given some of the 'hostility' your Indian family members have displayed towards Pakistan since the Mumbai attacks.

All oppressors, including West Pakistan in then East Pakistan neither recognized their misdeeds when carrying out those misdeeds nor accepted their wrongdoing. Evident from history spanning the beginning of time, regret only sets in upon the oppressor once the oppressed becomes victorious. To expect the Indians to act otherwise is being unfair on them

But in the absence of any expectation that Indians & the Indian State will engage in introspection and come to recognize their follies, is it not true that the only way forward is violence? Violence by the Kashmiris and/or Pakistan instigated?

I'd rather look towards the example of Quebec or Scotland - referendums were allowed by both Canada and the UK, and it didn't take a massive amount of violence to get there.

 

[Politico]

I'd like to ask a question with no malicious intent and it is purely just curiosity. If your father is Indian and your mother is Pakistani, while you yourself are married to a Indian,and most of your involvement is more with India than Pakistan. Then why did you chose a Pakistani flag as your flag of origin?

I choose the flag before I met my husband. I retained it to irk him after I met him. As a young girl at the time when I joined this forum, I was more fond of my mother (as her only daughter amongst her 5 children) and enjoyed listening to her countless tales of her growing up in Karachi and her youth in Pakistan. When she spoke and speaks to me of the greenery of Pakistan and the enthusiasm of its people, my heart fell in love with Pakistan

I must tell you that I also spent time in Pakistan before my marriage.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

My father - in - law is a high ranking member of the BJP in Gujarat ..shock shock to my Pakistani friends.

What does he think about 1969 and 2002 Gujrat Riots?

A Christian girl at some political event attended to mostly by Muslims chanted Pakistan Zindabad and the police had to whisk her away from a clearly angry Muslim mob.

That was the event of AIMIM. LOL

 

[Politico]

Thank you for sharing so much of your background.

I am curious - between your father and your husband, it would appear that your familial links are skewed towards India, yet you display a Pakistani and British flag.

And you didn't mention much about your mother's views, especially given some of the 'hostility' your Indian family members have displayed towards Pakistan since the Mumbai attacks.


But in the absence of any expectation that Indians & the Indian State will engage in introspection and come to recognize their follies, is it not true that the only way forward is violence? Violence by the Kashmiris and/or Pakistan instigated?

I'd rather look towards the example of Quebec or Scotland - referendums were allowed by both Canada and the UK, and it didn't take a massive amount of violence to get there.

I answered a portion of your question in response to @PakistaniJunior

My mother is a typical conservative Pakistani woman. Capable of commanding her husband when she needs to yet retaining his dignity in public. The most tormentous years of my youth and that of my siblings were when India played Pakistan at cricket. Our home became the LoC with slurs thrown each way. We learned an immense lot about Indo-Pakistani conflict during those times and even more, many curse terms against Indians and Pakistanis

Unfortunately whilst the military weight of the Kashmiris and the Pakistanis vis a vis the Indian military weight remains skewd in favour of the Indians, violence will remain the only form of communication unless the Kashmiris and the Pakistanis start accepting with reluctance the Indian pov.

The level of civilisation in Europe including in the UK took thousands of years to achieve after millions of tons of their forefathers' blood flooded those lands. Why are you so optimistic that Indians and Pakistanis can reach such maturity in less than 80 years ?

 

[Nilgiri]

Ahem. I live in India quite frequently

Nice to see you back in forum

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The level of civilisation in Europe including in the UK took thousands of years to achieve after millions of tons of their forefathers' blood flooded those lands. Why are you so optimistic that Indians and Pakistanis can reach such maturity in less than 80 years ?

Allow me a level of facetiousness, but the Indians have been claiming an ancient civilization thousands of years old, one so old that it invented (and apparently forgot) the internet, space travel, plastic surgery and various other assorted advanced technology.

Surely a nation this 'advanced' and 'ancient' doesn't need yet more time to reach the level of those unhygienic Western savages.