Why no export-success for the J-10 so far ?

[Deino]

Guys ... honestly, but some are indeed a bit strange: on the one side You feel immediately attacked by such a thread alone, as if the original posted wanted to start a flame war or bashing a Chinese product, while in return You always bring India back to the topic, make provocative statements ... and then are annoyed if Your own statements is repeated !

... what do You really want ?? A rational discussion or chest-thumping for Your own opinion ?

Deino

 

[wiseone2]

But they have alternate engine "WS-10" which is used in J-11b-bh and J-15, as for your information that China offered J-10 to Pakistan, not pakistan wanted to insist China to export it to pakistan

how reliable are Chinese engines ??

I doubt the Chinese offer was real. Why wouldn't the PAF acquire it ? I am sure the J-10 is better than the countless J-7 and Mirage III operated by the PAF.

China offers good financial terms for Pakistani weapon purchases

 

[Brainsucker]

1. I do not know it is crappy for a fact. Just an inference based on the state of the Chinese aircraft program. As I said it is a possibility

2. Pakistan is important to China. Not as important as Taiwan, fighting America. You sell it to Pakistan. The Americans will steal the secrets for good.

3. The JF-17 is powered by RD-93. The AL-31 is Russian engine. Any export would require Russian approval.

4. It is harder to customize aircraft than warships. The F-16 has been customized. Israel has F-16I. The F-16 has different Blocks for different levels of electronic warfare and combat capability. America has been in the fighter aircraft business a little longer.

1. Then you don't know. It's end here
2. And what basis are you using that Pakistan will give the secret to the American? Now, you accuse Pakistan as a cheap / untrustworthy country, by giving Chinese secret to 3rd party. You must give us the proof. It's bad to accuse somebody without basis.
3. RD-93 is also Russian engine, and Russian build a RD-93 factory in Pakistan to support this. If India as Russian's market can lean to US, which is Russian's rival, why couldn't Russia lean to Pakistan in order to sell their engine?
4. And? China has a lot of variant of Aircraft too. For J-10 alone, they have already have 3 variants already. J-10A, J-10B, and J-10C. Don't you say that they are not the customized version of J-10? Now for JF-17. They have already have customized variant too. Called JF-17 block 2 and block 3. So what? As long as the customers can pay, everything can be done.The problem is, can the customer pay for those custom version development? or if they want China pay for the development fee, how many aircraft that they want to buy? 200? 300? Don't say that they can only buy a squadron.

Aircraft is different to warship. You need to redevelop the aircraft if you want to change the system inside. Remember, beggar can't choose.

 

[wiseone2]

1. Then you don't know. It's end here
2. And what basis are you using that Pakistan will give the secret to the American? Now, you accuse Pakistan as a cheap / untrustworthy country, by giving Chinese secret to 3rd party. You must give us the proof. It's bad to accuse somebody without basis.
3. RD-93 is also Russian engine, and Russian build a RD-93 factory in Pakistan to support this. If India as Russian's market can lean to US, which is Russian's rival, why couldn't Russia lean to Pakistan in order to sell their engine?
4. And? China has a lot of variant of Aircraft too. For J-10 alone, they have already have 3 variants already. J-10A, J-10B, and J-10C. Don't you say that they are not the customized version of J-10? Now for JF-17. They have already have customized variant too. Called JF-17 block 2 and block 3. So what? As long as the customers can pay, everything can be done.The problem is, can the customer pay for those custom version development? Aircraft is different to warship. You need to redevelop the aircraft if you want to change the system inside.

Pakistan as a country might not. But what prevents individual Pakistanis from selling secrets ?

There is no RD-93 factory in Pakistan. Russia would prefer to sell entire combat aircraft instead of engines.

China could customize. They are new to the game.That is all I said

 

[Ultima Thule]

how reliable are Chinese engines ??

I doubt the Chinese offer was real. Why wouldn't the PAF acquire it ? I am sure the J-10 is better than the countless J-7 and Mirage III operated by the PAF.

China offers good financial terms for Pakistani weapon purchases

400 inducted by PLAAF and improving J-11D and J-16 have it also, what doubt ? care to explain, yes certainly J-10 is far far more advance than J-7 and Mirgaes, but Paf wanted it to at least on the par with F-16 blk60

Pakistan as a country might not. But what prevents individual Pakistanis from selling secrets ?

There is no RD-93 factory in Pakistan. Russia would prefer to sell entire combat aircraft instead of engines.

China could customize. They are new to the game.That is all I said

my dear friend do you live in your fool paradise now tell us how individual Pakistani can sell it secret to the third party

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

But they have alternate engine "WS-10" which is used in J-11b-bh and J-15, as for your information that China offered J-10 to Pakistan, not pakistan wanted to insist China to export it to pakistan

In fact it is the other way round. Pakistan is interested to induct these effective and advanced J10B fighter into her Air Force but it is basically self-moratorium on the part of China that kept the deal off.

1. It will certainly upset the balance of power in the South and destabilized the region. That is certainly NOT good for China. India will be forced to enter into an ARM RACE with Pakistan. That is also NOT what Pakistan wanted either.

2. But the day India finish selecting and introduce more capable jet-fighters into their military is the day we will see J-10 in Pakistan Air Force color.

3. Right now W10B is now strictly reserved for J11 series and its variants. Chinese pilots have openly voice their preference to WS10B turbofan over the AL31F as they are far more powerful and reliability. No PLAAF warplanes equipped with a WS10 has ever crashed so far.

4. It is an open secret that Pakistan pilots have already received training in both the J10 and J11 in China. If the threat from India become real, China can as easily transfer them to Pakistan from their inventory. Remember the F7P fighters that were transferred from China due to imminent threat of war from India many years ago.

 

[Ultima Thule]

In fact it is the other way round. Pakistan is interested to induct these effective and advanced J10B fighter into her Air Force but it is basically self-moratorium on the part of China that kept the deal off.

1. It will certainly upset the balance of power in the South and destabilized the region. That is certainly NOT good for China. India will be forced to enter into an ARM RACE with Pakistan. That is also NOT what Pakistan wanted either.

2. But the day India finish selecting and introduce more capable jet-fighters into their military is the day we will see J-10 in Pakistan Air Force color.

3. Right now W10B is now strictly reserved for J11 series and its variants. Chinese pilots have openly voice their preference to WS10B turbofan over the AL31F as they are far more powerful and reliability. No PLAAF warplanes equipped with a WS10 has ever crashed so far.

4. It is an open secret that Pakistan pilots have already received training in both the J10 and J11 in China. If the threat from India become real, China can as easily transfer them to Pakistan from their inventory. Remember the F7P fighters that were transferred from China due to imminent threat of war from India many years ago.

Thank you for your kind reply sir, but they started to test WS-10 in J-10c

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

Thank you for your kind reply sir, but they started to test WS-10 in J-10c

Yes. In fact some of the J10A and J10B are already flying with the WS10A powerplants but from what I see the priorities are given to the J11 variants e.g. J16, etc.

 

[Deino]

Thank you for your kind reply sir, but they started to test WS-10 in J-10c

No ... so far all C-models are using the AL-31FN Series 3.

Yes. In fact some of the J10A and J10B are already flying with the WS10A powerplants but from what I see the priorities are given to the J11 variants e.g. J16, etc.

Again NO.
These two birds are the two last batch 01 J-10Bs numbered 1-54 & 1-55 and both went to the FTTC (IMO 170. Brigade) for further testing. All other operational J-10s regardless A, AH, AS, AY, SY and B are using Russian engines.

Besides these two aircraft above only the prototypes J-10a 1004 and J-10B 1035 were flown with the WS-10A.

Honestly, I have no daubts in the WS-10 and I'm sure we will see it soon operationally on the J-10 but so long, we should at least stick to the facts.

Deino

 

[Zhu Rong Zheng Yang]

@Deino

#1) This is J-10B using WS-10B with s/n 1035

#2) What about this J-10B using WS-10B heading Westward
-- How do you know its s/n = ??

#3) What about this J-10B using WS-10B heading Eastward
-- How do you know its s/n = ??

#4) What about this J-10C heading Westward
-- How do you know its engine is NOT WS-10B = ??

#5) What is the difference of Gearbox location between WS-10A and WS-10B ??

Thanks so much in advance for clarifying your WS-10 ( A+B ) assessment.

 

[Ultima Thule]

No ... so far all C-models are using the AL-31FN Series 3.

why you insisting J-10c not have WS-10, just your wishful thinking and your assumptions

 

[Deino]

why you insisting J-10c not have WS-10, just your wishful thinking and your assumptions

It's simply a fact. Show me any single image of a WS-10B-powered J-10C, there is none.
As such it seems as if it is indeed only some sort of whishfull-thinking on Your side and even more a blatant insinuation/
imputation to assume I would like to stick on the AL-31FN. In fact it's the one thing - besides a WS-15-powered J-20 and WS-20-powered Y-20 - I'm most eagerly awaiting, but a fact is a fact and to ignore this only since the own hopes are different, does not make these hopes a fact.

Again; as far as I assume, I know all posted images of all WS-10-powered J-10Bs and so far not a single C is included. Sadly, but true.

Deino

 

[Ultima Thule]

It's simply a fact. Show me any single image of a WS-10B-powered J-10C, there is none.
As such it seems as if it is indeed only some sort of whishfull-thinking on Your side and even more a blatant insinuation/
imputation to assume I would like to stick on the AL-31FN. In fact it's the one thing - besides a WS-15-powered J-20 and WS-20-powered Y-20 - I'm most eagerly awaiting, but a fact is a fact and to ignore this only since the own hopes are different, does not make these hopes a fact.

Again; as far as I assume, I know all posted images of all WS-10-powered J-10Bs and so far not a single C is included. Sadly, but true.

Deino

there is lots post by @ChineseTiger1986, @cirr and @Beast are providing with so many reliable links that shows you are totally wrong

 

[Deino]

@Deino

#1) This is J-10B using WS-10B with s/n 1035

View attachment 331995

#2) What about this J-10B using WS-10B heading Westward
-- How do you know its s/n = ??

View attachment 331993

#3) What about this J-10B using WS-10B heading Eastward
-- How do you know its s/n = ??

View attachment 331997

#4) What about this J-10C heading Westward
-- How do you know its engine is NOT WS-10B = ??

View attachment 332010

#5) What is the difference of Gearbox location between WS-10A and WS-10B ??

Thanks so much in advance for clarifying your WS-10 ( A+B ) assessment.

Thanks for Your post ... and indeed thee are - all but one - WS-10-powered J-10Bs. The #1 is the already mentioned fifth J-10B-prototype, the other two images #2 & #3 are the mentioned two last batch 1 production J-10Bs serialled 1-54 & 1-55. Since they don't have a serial and the c/n too small it can not be identified which one on these images is show.

Concerning #4 this is clearly a C, but also clearly powered by an AL-31FN. Just look at the nozzle, the pedals both in shape and colour its very much different to the nozzle in #2 & #3.

And finally concerning #5:
The difference between the WS-10A and B is the same as to the AL-31F and the FN. Both the AL-31F and the WS-10A are tailored to fit a Flanker and both therefore feature their gearbox on top. In contrast the AL-31FN and the WS-10B as well are both tailored to power the J-10 and as such both have their gear-box relocated to the bottom. On the following two images You can clearly see this difference.

Therefore post claiming WS-10B used by a Flanker are as much nonsense as claiming a J-10 can fit an AL-31F. Both engines are different.

Hope my quite long post was a bit helpful.
Deino


PS Missing in You list of WS-10-powered J-10 is this image showing the no. 104 prototype fitted test-wise with an WS-10B.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

there is lots post by @ChineseTiger1986, @cirr and @Beast are providing with so many reliable links that shows you are totally wrong

China is fitting with the new J-10 squadrons with the WS-10B, but it is not shown right now.

So Deino doesn't know it.