Why Muslims should avoid Northern Sweden during Ramadan

[qamar1990]

There is grand agreement on this by scholars of Islam , that in those counties the Fasting should be observed for 16 hours only..

is there any links or reference for this?

 

[Leviza]

is there any links or reference for this?

I dont have reference to it, but i was in Noman Ali khan lecture and after the even someone asked this question and that is the answer he gave ... if you dont know him. see his videos on you tube and he is a student of Dr. Israr Ahmad ...

 

[Dubious]

As I was talking about Jewish rulings:

Rabbi Israel Lipschutz, who lived in Danzig (now known as Gdansk) in Poland in the early 19th century distinguished between places like Copenhagen, where it may never get really dark out at night, but where the sun does actually set every day, and places further north where the sun stays above the horizon for months at a time. He ruled that in places where the sun does set, Shabbat begins when the sun sets, even if it never gets fully dark, and even if sunset is well after midnight. Shabbat ends 25 hours later regardless of whether it gets dark enough to count three stars.

But in places where the sun doesn't set at all, Rabbi Lipschutz ruled that a traveler should adopt the clock of the place from which he departed. The obvious question, then, is from which he departed when, exactly? From his hometown? From the last village he was in before he entered the all daylight zone?

In places where this ruling was relevant, it seems that communities had the custom not of holding Shabbat based on each individual's port of embarkation, but based on the nearest significant Jewish community. At the time the practice was first instituted in the 19th century, that happened to be Hamburg, Germany (one rabbi has suggested that the first community that needed to do this adopted Hamburg time because their rabbi was from Hamburg, and all other communities just followed their lead).

Rabbi Lipschutz's ruling aside, there are some different practices that you may find in these northernmost Jewish communities. I consulted with Daniel Reisel, a Jewish friend of mine in Norway to see what his community does. Apparently the Norwegian custom in the summer months (based on a teaching from the Baal Shem Tov that says we are all always walking towards Jerusalem) is to bring in Shabbat at the same time Shabbat begins in Jerusalem. So if candle-lighting time in Jerusalem is at 7:45pm, Shabbat in Oslo begins at 7:45pm local time. Shabbat ends the next day when the sun is at its lowest place on the horizon.

During the times of year when the sun does set, some people bring Shabbat in early. (According to Jewish law, you can't begin Shabbat as early as you want. Typically, the limit is about 90 minutes before sunset.) Others wait to light candles on time, which may be after midnight. Regardless of when you light candles, Shabbat does not end until the sun has gone down the next day, which can sometimes be very early Sunday morning. Many people do havdalah upon waking up on Sunday morning.

If you choose to go with Rabbi Lipschutz's ruling of going by the nearest Jewish community, you may find that that candle-lighting time in that city is not until after midnight on Friday night, and Shabbat doesn't end until a few hours into Sunday. So, waiting to have your Shabbat dinner until after candle-lighting time may be a challenge (especially if you have small children).

If you can't or don't want to wait up in order to begin Shabbat on time, you may want to consider having a festive meal with your family on Friday at dinnertime, and simply lighting candles without saying a blessing. Instead of the Shabbat Kiddush, just say the basic blessing over the wine. You can maintain your traditions, even without staying up until one in the morning. This "Shabbat" dinner is a great time to talk to your family about what it means to observe Shabbat. Do they think of Shabbat as strictly tied to a time period, an event, a ritual, a community, or do they think of Shabbat as something that is more spiritual and can happen anywhere at any time, even if it isn't Friday, or doesn't get dark?

There are some Muslim communities who follow such rules:

1) Break fast following the time at their homelands (even if their kids are born and raised in Scandinavia and that is their homeland)
2) Use twilight hours (even if it means fasting 20-22 hrs)
3) Some even follow Saudi
4) Follow the nearest Muslim community or the nearest town where the sun does set or atleast hits twilight!

There is grand agreement on this by scholars of Islam , that in those counties the Fasting should be observed for 16 hours only..

Why so? In Germany today it is 18.5 hrs
In Italy it is close to 17hrs
In UK it is 16 hrs but Scotland it is more
In Helsinki it is 20 + hrs

So why the northern tip gets 16 hrs while the middle of Europe has 16-20 hrs?

I dont have reference to it, but i was in Noman Ali khan lecture and after the even someone asked this question and that is the answer he gave ... if you dont know him. see his videos on you tube and he is a student of Dr. Israr Ahmad ...

I havent seen that video, can you please put the link here?

 

[Leviza]

As I was talking about Jewish rulings:

Rabbi Israel Lipschutz, who lived in Danzig (now known as Gdansk) in Poland in the early 19th century distinguished between places like Copenhagen, where it may never get really dark out at night, but where the sun does actually set every day, and places further north where the sun stays above the horizon for months at a time. He ruled that in places where the sun does set, Shabbat begins when the sun sets, even if it never gets fully dark, and even if sunset is well after midnight. Shabbat ends 25 hours later regardless of whether it gets dark enough to count three stars.

But in places where the sun doesn't set at all, Rabbi Lipschutz ruled that a traveler should adopt the clock of the place from which he departed. The obvious question, then, is from which he departed when, exactly? From his hometown? From the last village he was in before he entered the all daylight zone?

In places where this ruling was relevant, it seems that communities had the custom not of holding Shabbat based on each individual's port of embarkation, but based on the nearest significant Jewish community. At the time the practice was first instituted in the 19th century, that happened to be Hamburg, Germany (one rabbi has suggested that the first community that needed to do this adopted Hamburg time because their rabbi was from Hamburg, and all other communities just followed their lead).

Rabbi Lipschutz's ruling aside, there are some different practices that you may find in these northernmost Jewish communities. I consulted with Daniel Reisel, a Jewish friend of mine in Norway to see what his community does. Apparently the Norwegian custom in the summer months (based on a teaching from the Baal Shem Tov that says we are all always walking towards Jerusalem) is to bring in Shabbat at the same time Shabbat begins in Jerusalem. So if candle-lighting time in Jerusalem is at 7:45pm, Shabbat in Oslo begins at 7:45pm local time. Shabbat ends the next day when the sun is at its lowest place on the horizon.

During the times of year when the sun does set, some people bring Shabbat in early. (According to Jewish law, you can't begin Shabbat as early as you want. Typically, the limit is about 90 minutes before sunset.) Others wait to light candles on time, which may be after midnight. Regardless of when you light candles, Shabbat does not end until the sun has gone down the next day, which can sometimes be very early Sunday morning. Many people do havdalah upon waking up on Sunday morning.

If you choose to go with Rabbi Lipschutz's ruling of going by the nearest Jewish community, you may find that that candle-lighting time in that city is not until after midnight on Friday night, and Shabbat doesn't end until a few hours into Sunday. So, waiting to have your Shabbat dinner until after candle-lighting time may be a challenge (especially if you have small children).

If you can't or don't want to wait up in order to begin Shabbat on time, you may want to consider having a festive meal with your family on Friday at dinnertime, and simply lighting candles without saying a blessing. Instead of the Shabbat Kiddush, just say the basic blessing over the wine. You can maintain your traditions, even without staying up until one in the morning. This "Shabbat" dinner is a great time to talk to your family about what it means to observe Shabbat. Do they think of Shabbat as strictly tied to a time period, an event, a ritual, a community, or do they think of Shabbat as something that is more spiritual and can happen anywhere at any time, even if it isn't Friday, or doesn't get dark?

There are some Muslim communities who follow such rules:

1) Break fast following the time at their homelands (even if their kids are born and raised in Scandinavia and that is their homeland)
2) Use twilight hours (even if it means fasting 20-22 hrs)
3) Some even follow Saudi
4) Follow the nearest Muslim community or the nearest town where the sun does set or atleast hits twilight!


Why so? In Germany today it is 18.5 hrs
In Italy it is close to 17hrs
In UK it is 16 hrs but Scotland it is more
In Helsinki it is 20 + hrs

So why the northern tip gets 16 hrs while the middle of Europe has 16-20 hrs?


I havent seen that video, can you please put the link here?

Its not on video as i was there on the event ... and this question came up after the event when everyone was trying to get pictures with him

you are right in thinking this, but there every year its fixed and for all these countries.. Germany, Italy, UK etc. winter time fasting is really small.. but these places time is fixed ...

But the scenario is as you said is mostly followed, even in UK ..

here are some Muslim communities who follow such rules:
1) Break fast following the time at their homelands (even if their kids are born and raised in Scandinavia and that is their homeland)
2) Use twilight hours (even if it means fasting 20-22 hrs)
3) Some even follow Saudi
4) Follow the nearest Muslim community or the nearest town where the sun does set or atleast hits twilight!

 

[Dubious]

you are right in thinking this, but there every year its fixed and for all these countries.. Germany, Italy, UK etc. winter time fasting is really small.. but these places time is fixed ...

Sorry I didnt understand this ^^
The winter Fast for Scandinavia is the shortest ranging from 6hrs to lesser than that (depending how north you go)...that is way shorter than anything you will find in Germany, Italy or UK (maybe Scotland)

damn thats harsh whats the best place to live for fasting? lol

depends on which month it comes...Right now the best place would prob be NZ or Southern tip of Argentina

For winters the best time is any Scandinavian countries, Iceland or even North Canada/ Russia

Speaking of Russia...not sure why everyone worries soo much about the easy going life in welfare Scandinavia and people forget the hardship of Russians in Russia ...they are fasting for 20 + hrs too

 

[qamar1990]

Sorry I didnt understand this ^^
The winter Fast for Scandinavia is the shortest ranging from 6hrs to lesser than that (depending how north you go)...that is way shorter than anything you will find in Germany, Italy or UK (maybe Scotland)


depends on which month it comes...Right now the best place would prob be NZ or Southern tip of Argentina

For winters the best time is any Scandinavian countries, Iceland or even North Canada/ Russia

time to go to new zealand

 

[Dubious]

time to go to new zealand

or Argentina

Well, in my opinion best place to observe fasting is the equator ...any country lying on the equator will have only 12-13 hrs of fasting irrespective of the season coz equatorial countries have no seasons...

 

[Leviza]

Well, in my opinion best place to observe fasting is the equator ...any country lying on the equator will have only 12-13 hrs of fasting irrespective of the season coz equatorial countries have no seasons...

or Argentina

Well, in my opinion best place to observe fasting is the equator ...any country lying on the equator will have only 12-13 hrs of fasting irrespective of the season coz equatorial countries have no seasons...

you might be right, but question come up, WHY DO MUSLIM FAST ~?
Is it to observe timing ? or it for the sake of Allah SWT ? Answer yourself

 

[qamar1990]

you might be right, but question come up, WHY DO MUSLIM FAST ~?
Is it to observe timing ? or it for the sake of Allah SWT ? Answer yourself

sake of allah swt

 

[Dubious]

you might be right, but question come up, WHY DO MUSLIM FAST ~?
Is it to observe timing ? or it for the sake of Allah SWT ? Answer yourself

I am more of a person who lives in both worlds:

1) for sake of ALLAH (For hereafter, obedience, purify oneself)
2) For Duniyea to humble myself to know the suffering of the world...I believe saying I understand means nothing until you are in their shoes!

We are supposed to be a balance between both worlds...not to tip off on 1 side...We live in this world to earn the other...But living in this world we need to know this world too and so on...and to enter heaven we need to have the obedience bit and also to earn for we are rewarded for every good....

 

[Leviza]

I am more of a person who lives in both worlds:

1) for sake of ALLAH (For hereafter, obedience, purify oneself)
2) For Duniyea to humble myself to know the suffering of the world...I believe saying I understand means nothing until you are in their shoes!

We are supposed to be a balance between both worlds...not to tip off on 1 side...We live in this world to earn the other...But living in this world we need to know this world too and so on...and to enter heaven we need to have the obedience bit and also to earn for we are rewarded for every good....

I 100% Agree with you , even your 2nd point is for Allah swt, As HE made it compulsory for us to maintain the duniyea with halal earnings and what ever being given by him, we say Alhamdolila ..

 

[Dubious]

Now to understand this world we fast, know the feeling of being hungry, dehydrated, tired, fatigue...

In reality this should humble us...there is a saying one who can tolerate their hunger or can hold back desires (smoking, intercourse, food) can fight anything!

Next for the hereafter, the prayers that come in, the discipline and obedience comes in....hence, according to discipline...we should at least try to follow what is given to us...follow the twilight and if people in Southern Finland (same country as Northern Finland) or South of Sweden (same country with Northern Sweden) can fast some 20-22 hrs....then why does a portion of the same country get to fast for 16 hrs? what was that calculated based on? Wont countries where people are fasting for 18-19 hrs want the same? When do you get to choose you can do 16 hrs? When does that rule apply to you?

While the same norther Sweden and Finland get to fast for 4-6 hrs or even less during winter, why isnt this bestowed on Australia which was fasting for some 16-18 hrs?

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

@Akheilos @Zarvan @RAMPAGE
what is the ruling on this matter/?
if a muslim was is the northern hemisphere where the sun doesn't set how would we go about with fasting or praying?
according to the hadiths and the quran and only shahih hadiths..

Don't worry, when you are in trouble following the Qur'aan, God is a forgiving God!

In Denmark a friend told they are fasting about 20 hours wondering what would happen in case of northern Sweden. Chances are 50/50 either it can be very long or very short

In Denmark the Sun goes down just below the horizon, so they are still OK.

 

[Dubious]

I 100% Agree with you , even your 2nd point is for Allah swt, As HE made it compulsory for us to maintain the duniyea with halal earnings and what ever being given by him, we say Alhamdolila ..

True...sorry if I am not making much sense.... I have too many thoughts coming in at once...and I didnt seem to have collected them and arranged them neatly...

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

you might be right, but question come up, WHY DO MUSLIM FAST ~?
Is it to observe timing ? or it for the sake of Allah SWT ? Answer yourself

I think it is fore pure health reason. It is not bad for you to eat during Ramadan,
but food decays much more quickly in the hottest part of the year.
If you don't eat, you can keep the food in a better place.
If this is correct, this means Ramadan should be in January on the Southern Hemisphere.

There is grand agreement on this by scholars of Islam , that in those counties the Fasting should be observed for 16 hours only..

But admittedly, it is CHEATING, LOL.
They need to hold off for a MONTH.