Why do you accept Nagorno-Karabakh to be part of Azerbaijan, when you don't accept the State of Israel?

[altafahmed]

It was Armenian land for thousands of years.
It were Armenians who were living there.

And the British is not the only colonial power, but it were also Iran and Turkey who captured Armenia and then declared Nagorno-Karabakh a part of Azerbaijan, and ruled there through their puppet Governor. And then Russia took over the colonial role.

And then finally came UN, who was in its infancy, and accepted the things in the light of resolutions that were passed by its member states (i.e. the colonial powers in this case).

Armenians were also protesting and making struggles against it, They never accepted this solution. But Muslim States all together accepted this resolution of colonial powers.

Hell, even the Palestinian government also accept Nagorno-Karabakh to be a part of Azerbaijan.

Nevertheless, when this same UN, also passed a resolution for the creation of the state of Israel, then these same Muslim States were not ready to accept it.

Is it not Double Standards of Muslims?

Actually, Turkey also did a genocide of Armenians in 1915 and took the whole Western Armenian. Today it is a part of Turkey and Muslims also happily accept it. This is also one of the reasons that Turkey supports the capture of Armenian lands by Azerbaijan.

If you gladly play might is right for your own advantages, then someone other stronger than you will also come, and he will also play might is right with you too.

Israel is playing this same game of might is right with Arabs now. I don't think Arabs and Muslim states have any right to cry crocodile tears now.

You are wrong on factual bases, yes Armenians were in majority in Nagorno-Karabakh but what about people of all the 7 surrounding districts? There were roughly 75000 Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh and more than 700000 Turks in the surrounding areas which were forced out by Armenians.

 

[Lehrasap]

You are wrong on factual bases, yes Armenians were in majority in Nagorno-Karabakh but what about people of all the 7 surrounding districts? There were roughly 75000 Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh and more than 700000 Turks in the surrounding areas which were forced out by Armenians.

Please cite your source.
And also tell about which century you are talking about.
And also tell why you neglected the genocides by Muslims of Armenians which lasted for centuries?

If you go this way, then there were millions of Christians and Jews in Israel, which were driven away by Umar Ibn Khattab and later coming Muslim Caliphates. But it becomes Halal when genocides and forced conversions and deportations are done by Muslims, but it becomes Haram vice-versa.

 

[Foinikas]

when professing their support for Armenia's past occupation so what exactly is your point?

It's not an occupation. That's what I'm trying to tell you. For them,they retook their lands and united them with Armenia proper. The problem was that the Soviets gave NKR to Azerbaijan. The Soviets always had a habit of giving parts to other Republics and you see what happened after the USSR collapsed. Crimea ended up in Ukraine,Transnistria in Moldova,South Ossetia in Georgia etc etc.

ok? and Azeris(and their predecessors, they are culturally turkish today, ethnically they are of mixed origins similar to anatolians) and Kurds and persians have lived in those regions as well. what exactly was the point? You keep talking in generalities but you don't spell out the point you are trying to make. regardless I'm not even sure why you and the the other guy who started the thread are discussing, what is the point here with regards to modern states and the modern conflict? its just a victimhood tirade that keeps jumping from point to point.

You're still not getting what I'm telling you. Armenians lived more on those lands than Persians or Kurds. Persians,Kurds,Arabs or Turks didn't live in majority Armenian and Georgian areas up in the Caucasus and immidiately around them. They didn't live in at least big numbers.

What's the point? The point is that some people go around saying "Azerbaijan retook their lands",based on recent history. They don't see beyond the point of NK being an Azerbaijani province since the Soviet era.

 

[Foinikas]

True the ottomans did for some area. The Armenians did too for some areas as well. The Russians did probably the most in the whole caucus.

Trust me,Armenians did the least when it comes to that. The Turkish campaign to exterminate Armenians,Greeks and Assyrians was disproportionate,it was massive. Now,Russians? They did some nasty things when they entered at some point during WWI,from what I've read.

Pashniyan isn't a superman to fix Armenian problems quickly and without money. His fault was, he didn't share true information with Armenians.

I have a whole thread of why Pashinyan's government is traitorous. You could check it out. Where do we begin? From decisions that were dumb to deliberately not sending reinforcements,to constantly trying to pursue a pro-Turkish agenda to even jailing or sacking politicians,officials,veterans and journalists who speak against him and criticize the government.

Armenians was never a part of history there and never ruled those lands, show me a single history or proof then every single kingdom there for last thousand year since the Selcuks came in 1071 and won Bizantin in famous war, those land were ruled by Turks.
I want you to ban this account for sharing lies

With your logic,Arabs,Greeks,Serbs,Bulgarians,Jews and basically everyone who was under the Seljuks and Ottomans eventually,were "never a part of history" at their respective homelands....

There you go:

 

[Abu Shaleh Rumi]

If we follow your logic, still Armenians are lesser idiots than Palestinians and Arabs and the majority of Muslims who firstly didn't accept the existence of Israel, and then kept on waging failed wars and didn't make a good enough give and take deal.

Sir we Muslims don't negotiate with anyone on our religious matter. Isreal is a western backed crusader state and like previous crusader colonizers, when time comes isrealis will also fertilize Palestinian soil. As of now we're weak, but we're here for eternity...

And about Armenians, they aren't getting Nagorno Karabakh back. Hopefully they won't lose ground from their mainland either.

Armenians are ethnoreligious group like jews. We Muslims are global religious group with almost every known ethnicity. We aren't comparable...

 

[Tomcats]

Pashinyan basically betrayed NKR.

At this point what Armenia has got post peace treaty is probably the best outcome all things considered which shows how dire the situation is there. Also w.r.t reinforcements, how is Pashinyan going to deny reinforcements, heck why did they even mobilize in the first place then? He isn't stupid, the military failed here and so did the government but for different reasons.

 

[Tornado23]

At this point what Armenia has got post peace treaty is probably the best outcome all things considered which shows how dire the situation is there. Also w.r.t reinforcements, how is Pashinyan going to deny reinforcements, heck why did they even mobilize in the first place then? He isn't stupid, the military failed here and so did the government but for different reasons.

Finally someone actually understands why Pashinyan stopped fighting. His military would have collapsed horribly, and a lot more lives would have been lost.

 

[Foinikas]

He isn't stupid, the military failed here and so did the government but for different reasons.

The military failed and the Armenian government also did little to help Artsakh.

At this point,we need to stress that Artsakh (NKR) has different Armed Forces from the Republic of Armenia,at least de jure.
Pashinyan,in various cases,didn't send reinforcements or equipment when needed and asked by the forces in Artsakh. There was also misuse or no use of some big weapons Armenia had,as became evident right after the war.

Would they have won? In a total war,no. But they could have slowed down the Azeris and/or caused much heavier casualties to them,probably long enough for a ceasefire to be brokered and some big countries to mediate. That could have prevented Armenia from signing such a devastating agreement.

However,what you should also note,is that Pashinyan was extremely eager to sign Russia's "peace plan",which gave almost all of Artsakh to Azeri control,even the areas they never reached. And after the war,Pashinyan was quick to start taking a diplomatically pro-Turkish and pro-Azeri stance. That's all very suspicious.

Finally someone actually understands why Pashinyan stopped fighting. His military would have collapsed horribly, and a lot more lives would have been lost.

Bro,check my reply to Tomcats. And ...let me repost some stuff that I've kept since the war

 

[Lehrasap]

Sir we Muslims don't negotiate with anyone on our religious matter. Isreal is a western backed crusader state and like previous crusader colonizers, when time comes isrealis will also fertilize Palestinian soil. As of now we're weak, but we're here for eternity...

And about Armenians, they aren't getting Nagorno Karabakh back. Hopefully they won't lose ground from their mainland either.

Armenians are ethnoreligious group like jews. We Muslims are global religious group with almost every known ethnicity. We aren't comparable...

That's it.
This is the real face of your side, where everything is Halal for you but Haram for others.
These are the double standards where Turkish genocide and capture of Western Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh are permissible in the name of UN resolution, but the creation of Israel is Haram despite the UN resolution.

These are the Double Standards for which the whole world has started hating you.

I don't agree with your lame excuse that Muslims have the right to do all crimes against humanity in the name of being a GLOBAL Religious Group, while Jews and Armenians don't have equal human rights, while they are so-called ethnoreligious groups.

With this menatlity, sooner or later, the Jihadists like you will turn regional issue like Nagorno-Karabakh to a CRUSADE too, where all Christians will feel the need to unite against the so-called GLOBAL Religion Group of Muslims, in order to save themselves.

We are already watching the result of this Jihadist Mentality where Rohingya had to pay the price and they were driven out in Myanmar while people fear exactly this Jihadist mindset.

This is the reason we see the rise in Hindutva in India, which we never saw before. People have become aware of this Jihadist mentality and they fear it, and thus ready to genocide Muslims, before they are killed and genocided by Muslims.

 

[Battlion25]

That's it.
This is the real face of your side, where everything is Halal for you but Haram for others.
These are the double standards where Turkish genocide and capture of Western Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh are permissible in the name of UN resolution, but the creation of Israel is Haram despite the UN resolution.

These are the Double Standards for which the whole world has started hating you.

I don't agree with your lame excuse that Muslims have the right to do all crimes against humanity in the name of being a GLOBAL Religious Group, while Jews and Armenians don't have equal human rights, while they are so-called ethnoreligious groups.

With this menatlity, sooner or later, the Jihadists like you will turn regional issue like Nagorno-Karabakh to a CRUSADE too, where all Christians will feel the need to unite against the so-called GLOBAL Religion Group of Muslims, in order to save themselves.

We are already watching the result of this Jihadist Mentality where Rohingya had to pay the price and they were driven out in Myanmar while people fear exactly this Jihadist mindset.

This is the reason we see the rise in Hindutva in India, which we never saw before. People have become aware of this Jihadist mentality and they fear it, and thus ready to genocide Muslims, before they are killed and genocided by Muslims.

What is this gibberish of post..

Muslims aren't out to genocide anyone.. Let bygones be bygones. I just see some people being paranoid for no reasons. Reminds me about the Algerian media that thinks the whole world united will attack them soon..

There has not been a single offensive Jihad by a Muslim since 1707 AD that is exactly 315 years ago the expansion era officially ended and is a far distant memory and it has come and gone. Times have changed and muslims have settled. They aren't out for disruption but only act in accordance with their right to defend their sovereign rights if there territorial boundaries were breached.. All the Muslims withhold the UN charter of territorial integrity as each states rights

 

[Foinikas]

And about Armenians, they aren't getting Nagorno Karabakh back. Hopefully they won't lose ground from their mainland either.

They've ALREADY lost ground from their "mainland" as well. The Azeris occupy kilometers of Armenia proper since 2021 and they won't leave.

Armenians are ethnoreligious group like jews. We Muslims are global religious group with almost every known ethnicity. We aren't comparable...

So....what?

Muslims aren't out to genocide anyone

But unfortunately,Turkish officials warned the Armenians with extermination,a few months ago. That's probably just political rants,but it's also a warmongering rhetoric. Especially when they say it about a people they've already tried to exterminate once.

imagine if the Germans said they'd wipe out some country from the map. How would that sound to the world?

 

[omegared]

It was Armenian land for thousands of years.
It were Armenians who were living there.

And the British is not the only colonial power, but it were also Iran and Turkey who captured Armenia and then declared Nagorno-Karabakh a part of Azerbaijan, and ruled there through their puppet Governor. And then Russia took over the colonial role.

And then finally came UN, who was in its infancy, and accepted the things in the light of resolutions that were passed by its member states (i.e. the colonial powers in this case).

Armenians were also protesting and making struggles against it, They never accepted this solution. But Muslim States all together accepted this resolution of colonial powers.

Hell, even the Palestinian government also accept Nagorno-Karabakh to be a part of Azerbaijan.

Nevertheless, when this same UN, also passed a resolution for the creation of the state of Israel, then these same Muslim States were not ready to accept it.

Is it not Double Standards of Muslims?

Actually, Turkey also did a genocide of Armenians in 1915 and took the whole Western Armenian. Today it is a part of Turkey and Muslims also happily accept it. This is also one of the reasons that Turkey supports the capture of Armenian lands by Azerbaijan.

If you gladly play might is right for your own advantages, then someone other stronger than you will also come, and he will also play might is right with you too.

Israel is playing this same game of might is right with Arabs now. I don't think Arabs and Muslim states have any right to cry crocodile tears now.

The main issue is this:
Iran sided with the Armenians when they went to war with Azerbaijan.
Iran supported Christians in their war of conquest and occupation of a Muslim Country.

We as Pakistanis should ask ourself if Iran would support India in a war of conquest and occupation, against us.
The anser is probably yes, if we are lucky they may remain neutral.

The Iranian regime didn't support Armenia for moral or historical reasons,
They supported the Armenians conquest of clearly Azeri lands, because Iran want's a weaker Azerbaijan.
There are more Azeris in Iran than in Azerbaijan,They are the biggest minority in Iran and Land in Iran used to part of Azerbaijan.
This plus other history makes Iran Suspicious of Azerbaijan and vice versa.
The Azeris Support Israel against Iran for the same reason.

The Pakistanis have always supported the Azeris against the Armenians, as we see it as Muslims vs Christians.
The Azeris love us for this and always support us with Kashmir.
Im proud of way Pakistan alway backed Azerbaijan, we need more of this.
Just so you know, If Iran came under attack from the USA/Israel or puppets,
I would support us standing with Iran as much as possible.
We need unity amongst muslim nations, in particular in times of war.

 

[Lehrasap]

. Let bygones be bygones.

This is what we are telling Muslims in the case of Israel to let bygones be bygones, but they don't accept it in their own case. That is why they are shown a mirror in the case of Azerbaijan and Turkey, so that they can see their double standards.

There has not been a single offensive Jihad by a Muslim since 1707 AD that is exactly 315 years ago the expansion era officially ended and is a far distant memory and it has come and gone.

How can you forget the Armenian Genocide in 1917 by Turkey, and then usurping the WHOLE Western Armenia, which is still the part of Turkey in the name of bygone is bygone.

What about Nagorno-Karabakh, which is again a recent issue and still alive?

I am afraid Muslims are not so innocent, but they were the biggest colonial power of the past.

Times have changed and muslims have settled. They aren't out for disruption but only act in accordance with their right to defend their sovereign rights if there territorial boundaries were breached.. All the Muslims withhold the UN charter of territorial integrity as each states rights

Once again, these sugar-coated words about law-abiding Muslims cannot hide the real issue.

The dangerous Jihadist mentality is still very much present there and a ticking bomb.

This Jihadi mindset is the reason that Muslim community has badly failed in order to integrate in the non-Muslim societies. This failure will sooner or later bring a fight in every country where Muslims are residing as minorities. They want to abolish human friendly and just Secular laws, and want to impose their Sharia even in the non-Muslim countries.

This is a ticking bomb. We have already seen the results of this mindset where people in Myanmar and India reacted and it came in form of killing of Muslims on mass level.

Thus, the Muslim community should be wise enough to understand that they cannot carry on with this Jihadist mind-set, ortherwise they will meet with severe resistance.

 

[hyperman]

The fact does not change that the heavy majority of Nagorno-Karabakh were Armenians, and they didn't want to have anything with Azerbaijan, but still Russia kept the status-co. Thus, Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh started struggle against it too.

This is revisionist BS, you do understand that before the Russians showed up, that gerrymandered district didn't exist right? and that it was just karabagh? and karabagh was majority azeri? they carved out a gerrymandered district inside karabagh that would have have an armenian majority, to the benifit of armenians, and then gave that district an autonomous status, something they didn't do for majority azeri areas inside Armenia.

Russia didn't "keep the status quo", it created nagorno karabagh.


here is how the population outside of those districts existed.

Armenian population were doing the armed struggle against Azerbaijan before the colonial Russains took them by force.

Buddy.. you do realize that if the Soviets/Russians don't invade Baku, then there is no nagorno karabakh and Armenia likely doesn't even have zangezur right? The Soviets/Russians did Armenia a favor in that respect.

 

[hyperman]

It's not an occupation. That's what I'm trying to tell you. For them,they retook their lands and united them with Armenia proper.

Foinikas, its literally an occupation under international law, there is no a single country(armenia included) that recognized the area as a part of Armenia.

Secondly, Idk if you a naive and don't know or playing dumb, but karabakh as a whole(nagorno karabakh + surrounding districts) before the post soviet conflict was majority azeri.

to put this in perspective it would be something like if Turkey decided to annex the blue parts on this map here, but to do that and connect with Turkey, they also took the green parts and the red parts that are there and depopulated them. Now you know you not use the same logic you used above for the greek matter, so be a bit consistent.

The problem was that the Soviets gave NKR to Azerbaijan.

The soviets didn't give anything to anyone, the soviets created nagorno karabakh, if you look at karabakh as a whole, before the gerrymandered district, it was majority azeri, so stick with the greek example above, say if the Soviets took control of greece, and they created "Nagorno Thrace"(blue area), they wouldn't be giving "Nagorno thrace" to greece, they would be creating an autonomous area inside Thrace, and the act wouldn't be viewed as "Pro Greece", b/c they are "giving" greece "Nagorno Thrace", it would be viewed as Pro Turkish, b/c they are creating an autonomous area for Turks..

When the Armenians annexed Nagorno Karabakh, they ethnically cleansed the kurds and azeris living in Kalbajar and Lachin to create their land bridge into the gerrymandered soviet district(which btw, even after the gerrymandering was still 1/3 azeri).