Why do you accept Nagorno-Karabakh to be part of Azerbaijan, when you don't accept the State of Israel?

[Foinikas]

Yep. Armenians though they will never lose to Azeris. Don't you know how Armenian civilians reacted to Russia brokered peace deal?

If you're talking about the 2020 war,the peace deal was a disaster for the Armenians. That's why they reacted like this. They were also enraged at the government,because information and evidence started coming out,proving that Pashinyan basically betrayed NKR.

And Armenians always try to gain sympathy by bringing up Armenian Genocide everywhere. Just like jews...

Don't Palestinians do the same?

 

[hyperman]

Now we are stretching it? I mentioned this forum too. Do you selectively see what you want and ignore the rest?

Ok, and I have seen comments here from users professing that BS christians good, evil muslims bad dichotomy, when professing their support for Armenia's past occupation so what exactly is your point? I didn't ignore anything, my initial response was "pot calling kettle black". and you started getting emotional with the "Did I say that", and then randomly bringing up youtube.

Armenians have lived in those lands,what is now Armenia,NKR and the areas around them,continuously for thousands of years. That constitutes as Armenian homeland.

ok? and Azeris(and their predecessors, they are culturally turkish today, ethnically they are of mixed origins similar to anatolians) and Kurds and persians have lived in those regions as well. what exactly was the point? You keep talking in generalities but you don't spell out the point you are trying to make. regardless I'm not even sure why you and the the other guy who started the thread are discussing, what is the point here with regards to modern states and the modern conflict? its just a victimhood tirade that keeps jumping from point to point.

 

[hyperman]

the peace deal was a disaster for the Armenians. That's why they reacted like this.

What was disastrous was the fact that they kept on carrying out the occupation, when literally everyone kept telling them to give back the surrounding areas, but they got greedy and hyper nationalistic, so even when sensible people like Petrossian wanted to give it back, the dashnak clowns overthrew him. They were shouting at Pashinyan, but if Pashinyan didn't agree to give back the surrounding districts and withdraw and accept the terms of the ceasefire, they would have likely lost more.

 

[Ssan]

Just because the Abbasids conquered Armenia,doesn't mean there were mass migrations or mass islamizations there. Your point doesn't stand. What's your origin? I want to give you an example.

I didn’t say that Armenia was majority muslim for a thousand years. I said there have been muslims there for a thousand years. And that the process of the Muslim population increasing until it became a majority was smooth and slow.

This is incidentally the case in most Muslim countries too- a slow long drawn out conversion process that took centuries. The single exception to this is probably Persia which converted in 50 years. And because they were converting so fast and becoming the majority of the overall Muslim population, the Arabs were actually trying to stop them from converting to Islam (Umayyad and early Abbasid era).

What's your origin? I want to give you an example.

Pakistani American.

I didn't say Persians and Arabs tried to eliminate them. It wasn't me.

Ok fair enough, lehrasap the .

The Ottomans and later Young Turks did try and largely succeeded,but that was from the early 20th century onwards.

True the ottomans did for some area. The Armenians did too for some areas as well. The Russians did probably the most in the whole caucus.

 

[Abu Shaleh Rumi]

If you're talking about the 2020 war,the peace deal was a disaster for the Armenians. That's why they reacted like this. They were also enraged at the government,because information and evidence started coming out,proving that Pashinyan basically betrayed NKR.

Pashniyan isn't a superman to fix Armenian problems quickly and without money. His fault was, he didn't share true information with Armenians.

Don't Palestinians do the same?

Palestinians are systematically genocided by jewynazis with direct western backing and funding. Except Islamic world they don't have anywhere to cry.

 

[retaxis]

So, you are changing the discussion from ACCEPTANCE of the CREATION of the State of Israel to a later occurring issue, i.e. the right to return.

But you first have to openly agree to the creation of Israel.




Again you are playing a game of deception.

You are directly jumping to 1990s, while the problem started with the colonization of Nagorno-Karabakh and making it a part of Azerbaijan. It was only then that Azeri were sent there to be settled, otherwise earlier it was 99% Armenian.

It is the same like China now sending Chinese people to Uyghur areas and changing the demographics.
Muslims condemn China for that, but these same Muslims support the same act when it was done by Turkic Muslim Azeris.

Chinese people lived in Xinjiang thousand years before Uyghurs. You should learn to use the right examples if you want to make a point. The Chinese allowed the Uyghurs to settle there in the first place as an act of kindness.

Its also Armenia fault for being weak and unprepared that they lost. You have only yourself to blame especially when you have no sanctions or propaganda aimed at you from the East or West.

 

[Kamil_baku]

Wasn’t it Stalin who made Nagorno-Karabakh part of Azerbaijan?

Its a big lie, no such thing, the name itself is Turkish. Armenians came only after 19th century there

Azerbaijani map in 1920, how can Stalin give it to Azerbaijan when Karabagh was always part pf Azerbaijan.
I see soo many double face people here that their breathe is lie. Thats why their destiny is as shameful as Armenia which lost war within 44 days

 

[Kamil_baku]

Armenia didn't exist as a State?

Do you know how many kingdoms and principalities the Armenians had since antiquity?

Even during Safavid rule,they had Armenian nobles installed as governors.


Do you know how many Muslims I've seen online,here and on youtube and on Facebook,saying nonsense like "Qarabagh is Azeri land,they just took it back" and things like that? Heck,even Pakistanis.


I showed you maps from diffferent time periods and you're stuck with "Tigran". Tigran's empire was the largest expansion in Armenian history. It's not the point,as you saw on other maps,the Armenian heartland always remained that area in the Caucasus and around it,extending almost to Lake Van.

But instead of thinking,you just saw the map that contains ALL the territorial expansion of Armenia through the ages...and instead of AGAIN thinking and checking the dates and States contained on that map....you went full retard.

Armenians was never a part of history there and never ruled those lands, show me a single history or proof then every single kingdom there for last thousand year since the Selcuks came in 1071 and won Bizantin in famous war, those land were ruled by Turks.
I want you to ban this account for sharing lies

 

[tower9]

Armenians are pure idiots. First they won Nagorno Karabakh and committed ethnic cleansing on Azeris. Then, they had a good long 30 years time to make a give and take deal with Azerbaijan and have a formal border with parts of Nagorno Karabakh. But, they were too high on their jew like superiority complex. Azerbaijan became stronger than Armenia very recently.

Not a fan of isreals friend Azerbaijan. But, Armenians deserve this bamboo shoved into their arse by the Azeris...

Armenians are a foolish lot and have little grasp of the stark realities they face.

Europe is largely the same way now and will bear the consequences of their decisions in the coming decade.

 

[Lehrasap]

Where? source? Right of Return is something that unconditional and enshrined into international law.

And once again, accepting the resolutions of UN is also an International Law, but you/Arabs have not accepted the State of Israel, and you are jumping directly to the right of return.

Buddy Armenia didn't even exist as a state until the very same "colonial powers"(Russians) collapsed and made way for successor states in the form of Azerbaijan and Armenia in the 1900s, only to be reabsorbed into the soviet union.

It is not about existing as a state, but it is about the Original Population of that area for thousands of years.
It didn't exist as a state due to the same problem of colonialism by Iran and Turks and then Russians.

Are you able to see the Double Standards:

• Arabs blame the colonial rule of British.
• Palestine also didn't exist as a state .

But still Arabs/Muslims deny existence of Israel, but at the same time consider Nagorno-Karabakh to be a part of Azerbaijan.

Wut? Soviets/Russian if anything were pro Armenia.

Russia may be pro-Armenian, but in the case of Nagorno-Karabakh, it used it for its own interests i.e. to keep good relations with Azerbaijan.
The fact does not change that the heavy majority of Nagorno-Karabakh were Armenians, and they didn't want to have anything with Azerbaijan, but still Russia kept the status-co. Thus, Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh started struggle against it too.

lol and yes, azeris and armenians did at one time live in a cohesive state harmoniously under the soviets. idk wtf that has to do with India or your example. it would be more like If I said at on time under British Rule people from different religions lived side by side in kashmir, which is also true. your analogy is flawed.

And I told you that use of power for brining temporary peace doesn't change the rights of the people. Armenian population were doing the armed struggle against Azerbaijan before the colonial Russains took them by force. And while such fake peace through the use of power was TEMPORARY, thus Armenians again started the struggle as soon as they got rid of USSR.

And all examples fit perfectly. Either it is peace in Kashmir under India where it is now try to settle more Hindus in Kashmir valley, or the example of British colonial power where Hindus and Muslims were living in peace in India. Or Chinese example under which Chinese and Uyghur lived in peace for decades. Or Serbian example where Serbs and Albanians lived in peace for decades under USSR.

You out here doing some weird *** grievance politics about stuff from before the modern era like literally 500 years ago.

You are now running from the original post. It were your Muslim buddies who brought that Yervan was Muslim majority 500 years ago, and then I have to show them multiple genocides by Turks and Iranians for centuries before they turned Yerevan to Muslim majority. But since it was an Armenian land for centuries, thus they returned there under Russian and there was no Muslim genocide.
Strange double standards you have. You keep on crying for the right to return for Palestinians, but when Armenians were returned to their land, then you have problems with it.

bringing all sorts of things into it, you started the conversation regarding nagorno karabakh, I i showed you the earliest available demographics survey of the region.

And I showed you how that happened through multiple genocides.
Hell, I showed you Turkey's genocide of Western Armenia in 1915, but still you are ok with it while your Muslim brothers did that genocide.
Yes, it was a genocide, after which no Armenians were left who could have asked for the right to that so-called return.
And all available demographics show that Armenians were in huge majority in 20th century. So, who is going in the past now? Yes, you are going now in the further past when Muslims became majority through genocides.
Why is it Halal for you to go in the past and use the example of Muslim demographics in that earlier centuries, but when we point out the real past of thousands of years of history with Armenian majority, then it becomes HARAM? What kind of double standards are they?

 

[Sineva]

False equivalence. One has nothing to do with the other.

Well,one certainly gets the feeling based on this weird thread that the op is either a card carrying zionist or a closet zionist,and we all know know how much zionists of all stripes love their hasbara,preferably served up with lashings of delicious "false equivalence",and huge steaming double helpings of "whataboutisms".

 

[Lehrasap]

Armenians are pure idiots. First they won Nagorno Karabakh and committed ethnic cleansing on Azeris. Then, they had a good long 30 years time to make a give and take deal with Azerbaijan and have a formal border with parts of Nagorno Karabakh. But, they were too high on their jew like superiority complex. Azerbaijan became stronger than Armenia very recently.

Not a fan of isreals friend Azerbaijan. But, Armenians deserve this bamboo shoved into their arse by the Azeris...

If we follow your logic, still Armenians are lesser idiots than Palestinians and Arabs and the majority of Muslims who firstly didn't accept the existence of Israel, and then kept on waging failed wars and didn't make a good enough give and take deal.

 

[Sineva]

And once again, accepting the resolutions of UN is also an International Law, but you/Arabs have not accepted the State of Israel, and you are jumping directly to the right of return.

Last time I looked israel was never a big fan of either international law or un resolutions,funny that,eh?
Unless of course it served its purpose of occupying/colonizing palestine,oh and stifling any criticism or condemnation of its actions in this regard.

 

[Lehrasap]

yes, in times of antiquity not with regards to modern times. Amenians haven't been sovereign for centuries.

I already told you that being a sovereign state in the past against the colonial powers is not the criteria.
Even India stayed as a non-sovereign state over century under British rule, till the resistance started.
This same resistance also started in Nagorno-Karabakh too, but you deny it and make it Haram in the name of lame excuses like sovereign state etc, neglecting the fact that this was an Armenian majority land for thousands of years.

But Palestine was also not a sovereign land for centuries, but then it became Halal for Palestinians to become a state and demand their rights, but it stayed Haram for Armenians.

PS: Armenia indeed became an independent State, which never happened to Palestine

Armenia indeed became an independent State in 1917, when the Russian Empire ended. But then Turks captured them.
By the end of May 1918, Armenians were able to defeat the Turkish army in the battles of Sardarabad, Abaran and Karakilisa. Thus, on 28 May 1918, the Dashnak leader Aram Manukian declared the independence of Armenia. Subsequently, Yerevan became the capital and the center of the newly founded Republic of Armenia, although the members of the Armenian National Council were yet to stay in Tiflis until their arrival in Yerevan to form the government in the summer of the same year.[67] Armenia became a parliamentary republic with four administrative divisions. The capital Yerevan was part of the Araratian Province. At the time, Yerevan received more than 75,000 refugees from Western Armenia, who escaped the massacres perpetrated by the Ottoman Turks during the Armenian genocide.

After the signing of the Treaty of Sèvres in 1920, Armenia was granted formal international recognition. The United States, as well as many South American countries, officially opened diplomatic channels with the government of independent Armenia. Yerevan had also opened representatives in Great Britain, Italy, Germany, Serbia, Greece, Iran and Japan.

However, after the short period of independence, Yerevan fell to the Bolsheviks, and Armenia was incorporated into Soviet Russia on 2 December 1920.

 

[Lehrasap]

Let me ask you a simple question- the Russians took Yerevan in the mid 1800s. Was it 20% at that time as you indicate in your next paragraph or 20% after shah Abbas deported people? You want to tell me that Shah Abbas would deport thousands of Armenians to Persia and leave 20% still.

So, you want to deny genocides and deportation of Armenians by Muslims while Shah Abbas left 20% Armenians there?
It is like questioning why India has left Kashmir to be Muslim majority still and why it does not kick out or kill all Kashmiris to make it a pure Hindu area again.
Go and read history how 20% Armenians were necessary for economy of that area and the Muslim colonial powers wanted to make money.

Yerevan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Shah Abbas I of Persia who ruled between 1588 and 1629, ordered the deportation of hundreds of thousands of Armenians including citizens from Yerevan to mainland Persia. As a consequence, Yerevan significantly lost its Armenian population who had declined to 20%, while Muslims including Persians, Turks, Kurds and Tatars gained dominance with around 80% of the city's population. Muslims were either sedentary, semi-sedentary, or nomadic. Armenians mainly occupied the Kond neighbourhood of Yerevan and the rural suburbs around the city. However, the Armenians dominated over various professions and trade in the area and were of great economic significance to the Persian administration.[55]

Why not take it to zero like the Armenians did in the 20th century? Armenia seems to have been successful in doing so within 70 years and discounting Soviet rule, even faster.

You have to bring your proof that Russians or Armenians did any genocide of Muslims in that area during that period.
Russia brought the original displaced people of Armenia back to those areas, which brought Armenian population to become a majority.

Yerevan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Russians sponsored the resettlement process of the Armenian population from Persia and Turkey. Due to the resettlement, the percentage of the Armenian population of Yerevan increased from 28% to 53.8%.

The population of Yerevan under Muslim rule was tiny (only about 29000). Muslims displaced the original population, but were themselves unable to populate that area on a big scale.

And then in 1917, after the Turkish genocide in Western Armenia, again thousands of Armenian fled to Yerevan.

Yerevan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

At the time, Yerevan received more than 75,000 refugees from Western Armenia, who escaped the massacres perpetrated by the Ottoman Turks during the Armenian genocide.

No wonder that few thousand Muslim population disappeared during that period, while they were only the rulers and didn't have much skills to survive. In short, there is no historical record present of any genocide of that tiny Muslim population.

How many Muslims percentage wise are part of Armenia. Within 70 years or so, this number went from 80% to 0%. But you have trouble believing that after 600 so years of muslim rule, local Armenians wouldn’t convert to Islam slowly leading to 80% Muslim and 20% Christian population?

We don't want you assumptions, but proofs.
Yes, Armenians didn't accept Islam on mass level, and that 80% happened due to the genocides and deportation of local Armenians, as has been recorded in the history books and I provided you with the links. You just have to read them, in order to come out of your fantasy conjectures.