Who Won the 1965 War? India or Pakistan?
- Thread starter RiazHaq
- Start date
AntiToxic
BANNED
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2015
- Messages
- 215
- Reaction score
- -6
- Country
- Location
Below was the actual conclusion of the war.
"Despite the cease-fire rendering the conflict militarily inconclusive, both India and Pakistan claimed victory. Most neutral assessments, however, agree that India had the upper hand over Pakistan when the ceasefire was declared.
Though officially deemed to be militarily inconclusive, the conflict is widely seen as a strategic and political defeat for Pakistan, as it had neither succeeded in fomenting insurrection in Kashmir nor had it been able to gain meaningful support at an international level."
"Despite the cease-fire rendering the conflict militarily inconclusive, both India and Pakistan claimed victory. Most neutral assessments, however, agree that India had the upper hand over Pakistan when the ceasefire was declared.
Though officially deemed to be militarily inconclusive, the conflict is widely seen as a strategic and political defeat for Pakistan, as it had neither succeeded in fomenting insurrection in Kashmir nor had it been able to gain meaningful support at an international level."
dray
BANNED
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2013
- Messages
- 10,853
- Reaction score
- -1
- Country
- Location
"Lahore or Sialkot" were deflections to spread the relatively smaller Pakistani troops thin by opening multiple war front. I see no hope for Pakistan if they couldn't figure out this simple but effective war strategy even after 51 long years.
Yeah, India was annihilated and you are discussing this with the ghosts of Indians from 1965 who later learned computer, forum, etc. in the "Hell's School of Computer Education".
It's not your fault, you know....it's those buggers who smuggle phensedyl into Bangladesh.
Asian.Century
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2010
- Messages
- 10,754
- Reaction score
- -2
- Country
- Location
Are India's plans to celebrate 1965 war 'victory' in 'bad taste'?
India plans to celebrate the 50th anniversary of its "victory" over Pakistan in the 1965 war with a series of events, including a "grand carnival". But critics say it is in bad taste and a waste of money, writes the BBC's Geeta Pandey in Delhi.
The war was fought on the western front after Pakistan launched "Operation Gibraltar" - a covert offensive in which up to 30,000 fighters were pushed across the ceasefire line into Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir. India retaliated by crossing the international border at Lahore.
For over three weeks, more than 100,000 Indian soldiers fought against Pakistan's 60,000 troops.
"The celebrations are set to kick off on 28 August, the day Indian troops captured the strategic Haji Pir Pass," Indian defence ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar told the BBC.
"They will go on until 22 September - the day India and Pakistan agreed to a UN-sponsored ceasefire."
Image copyrightINDIAN MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
Image captionThe 1965 war has been largely forgotten by the Indian people
Image copyrightCOURTESY: WWW.ADITYAARYAARCHIVE.COM
Image captionMore than 100,000 Indian soldiers fought in the war
The main event - a "victory carnival" with a show of military might, song and dance - is planned for 20 September on Rajpath - the wide boulevard in the city centre where the annual Republic Day parade is held and where India recently organised a record-breaking yoga event.
The celebrations will also include seminars, photo exhibitions and a concert.
"The 1965 war has been forgotten by people and this is an effort to revive the memory," said former journalist Nitin Gokhale who has been commissioned by the defence ministry to write a book on the conflict.
Gains and losses
Jump media player
Media player help
Out of media player. Press enter to return or tab to continue.
Media caption1965 Indian Army war veteran, Brig (retired) Arvinder Singh
Image copyrightINDIAN MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
At the end of the war, this is what India said the tally looked like:
India captured the key Haji Pir pass - "a major ingress route for Pakistanis" - and made some big gains in Sialkot and reached the doors of Lahore in Punjab. The Pakistani army managed to repulse a takeover of Lahore, made advances in the deserts of Rajasthan and came perilously close to taking over Akhnoor in the Jammu region.
But the gains were not substantial for either side and after the ceasefire, India and Pakistan met at Tashkent in January 1966 where they agreed to withdraw to their pre-war positions.
Image copyrightCOURTESY: WWW.ADITYAARYAARCHIVE.COM
Image captionMajor Ranjit Singh Dayal led the Indian assault on Haji Pir Pass
Over the years, both sides have claimed victory. Pakistan even celebrates 6 September every year as "Defence of Pakistan Day" with a 21-gun salute and a victory parade.
Indians meanwhile believe that their forces had the clear upper hand.
"This war is important for two reasons - it wiped the humiliation of defeat India faced in 1962 against China and also allowed the Indian army to hone and tweak their strategy. This gave them confidence which led to their decisive victory in the 1971 war against Pakistan," said Mr Gokhale.
"For India, 1965 was not a grand victory, but it can certainly be called a limited victory," he added.
Did India win the war?
Image copyrightCOURTESY: WWW.ADITYAARYAARCHIVE.COM
At least three independent authors believed India had an upper hand in the war:
Pakistan continues to observe 6 September as "defence day", but the zest and gusto associated with the celebrations has dampened in recent decades.
One reason is the passing of the 1965 generation. Secondly, the threat of militant attacks during the last ten years have forced military parades, air shows and armament displays to become more low key.
Another is that an alternative view of the chronology and consequences of the war has gained more currency in Pakistan.
Earlier it was believed that the 1965 war had been initiated by India with a view to capturing Lahore and breaking Pakistan. Celebrations were centred on the "valiant defence" by the Pakistani armed forces defeated that aim.
More recently some influential politicians and members of the armed forces have publicly stated that all wars with India were initiated by Pakistan.
Had the 1965 war been a success, the argument goes, it would not have led to the demise and humiliation of Field Marshal Ayub Khan, Pakistan's first military ruler under whose watch the war was fought.
India has never celebrated any of its wars on such a grand scale, so why this big victory carnival now?
"It's 50 years since we won the war, if you won't celebrate it now then when will you do?" asked the defence ministry's Sitanshu Kar.
Not all Indians, however, are enthusiastic about the celebrations and the defence expert at Delhi-based Centre for Police Research, Srinath Raghavan, says the idea of the "victory carnival" is "absurd".
Image copyrightCOURTESY: WWW.ADITYAARYAARCHIVE.COM
Image captionThe 1965 war was fought in the mountains of Kashmir
"It smacks of bad taste. What do you have a carnival for? It is not a bad idea to commemorate the war, but it should be a solemn occasion, not a frivolous display of song and dance."
He said the government's plans to spend 350m rupees ($5.5m; £3.5m) on the event was "a waste of resources".
A former army soldier who fought in the 1999 Kargil conflict against Pakistan, he said, "the commemoration should not be jingoistic, it should be used to remember all the lives lost - of soldiers and civilians - on the border".
Image copyrightINDIAN MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
Image captionBoth India and Pakistan claim to have won the war
Although Islamabad has not commented officially, the plan for the victory carnival has, as expected, drawn criticism from Pakistan with some saying it could have a negative impact on bilateral ties.
Mr Raghavan also believes that it could lead to "unnecessary unpleasantness" at a time when the two countries have said they want to restart the dialogue process.
"A better way to commemorate the war," he said, "would be to inform people what this war was really about, to get the conversation going and foster a genuine historic dialogue about it."
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-33815204
India plans to celebrate the 50th anniversary of its "victory" over Pakistan in the 1965 war with a series of events, including a "grand carnival". But critics say it is in bad taste and a waste of money, writes the BBC's Geeta Pandey in Delhi.
The war was fought on the western front after Pakistan launched "Operation Gibraltar" - a covert offensive in which up to 30,000 fighters were pushed across the ceasefire line into Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir. India retaliated by crossing the international border at Lahore.
For over three weeks, more than 100,000 Indian soldiers fought against Pakistan's 60,000 troops.
"The celebrations are set to kick off on 28 August, the day Indian troops captured the strategic Haji Pir Pass," Indian defence ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar told the BBC.
"They will go on until 22 September - the day India and Pakistan agreed to a UN-sponsored ceasefire."
Image captionThe 1965 war has been largely forgotten by the Indian people
Image captionMore than 100,000 Indian soldiers fought in the war
The main event - a "victory carnival" with a show of military might, song and dance - is planned for 20 September on Rajpath - the wide boulevard in the city centre where the annual Republic Day parade is held and where India recently organised a record-breaking yoga event.
The celebrations will also include seminars, photo exhibitions and a concert.
"The 1965 war has been forgotten by people and this is an effort to revive the memory," said former journalist Nitin Gokhale who has been commissioned by the defence ministry to write a book on the conflict.
Gains and losses
Jump media player
Media player help
Out of media player. Press enter to return or tab to continue.
Media caption1965 Indian Army war veteran, Brig (retired) Arvinder Singh
At the end of the war, this is what India said the tally looked like:
- India won 1,920 sqkm of territory; Pakistan won 540 sqkm
- 2,862 Indian soldiers were killed; Pakistan lost 5,800 soldiers
- India lost 97 tanks; 450 Pakistani tanks were destroyed or captured
India captured the key Haji Pir pass - "a major ingress route for Pakistanis" - and made some big gains in Sialkot and reached the doors of Lahore in Punjab. The Pakistani army managed to repulse a takeover of Lahore, made advances in the deserts of Rajasthan and came perilously close to taking over Akhnoor in the Jammu region.
But the gains were not substantial for either side and after the ceasefire, India and Pakistan met at Tashkent in January 1966 where they agreed to withdraw to their pre-war positions.
Image captionMajor Ranjit Singh Dayal led the Indian assault on Haji Pir Pass
Over the years, both sides have claimed victory. Pakistan even celebrates 6 September every year as "Defence of Pakistan Day" with a 21-gun salute and a victory parade.
Indians meanwhile believe that their forces had the clear upper hand.
"This war is important for two reasons - it wiped the humiliation of defeat India faced in 1962 against China and also allowed the Indian army to hone and tweak their strategy. This gave them confidence which led to their decisive victory in the 1971 war against Pakistan," said Mr Gokhale.
"For India, 1965 was not a grand victory, but it can certainly be called a limited victory," he added.
Did India win the war?
At least three independent authors believed India had an upper hand in the war:
- Retired American diplomat Dennis Kux: "Although both sides lost heavily in men and material, and neither gained a decisive military advantage, India had the better of the war. Delhi achieved its basic goal of thwarting Pakistan's attempt to seize Kashmir by force. Pakistan gained nothing from a conflict which it had instigated."
- English historian John Keay: "The war lasted barely a month. Pakistan made gains in the Rajasthan desert but its main push against India's Jammu-Srinagar road link was repulsed and Indian tanks advanced to within a sight of Lahore. Both sides claimed victory but India had most to celebrate."
- American author Stanley Wolpert: "The war ended in what appeared to be a draw when the embargo placed by Washington on US ammunition and replacements for both armies forced cessation of conflict before either side won a clear victory. India, however, was in a position to inflict grave damage to, if not capture, Pakistan's capital of the Punjab when the ceasefire was called, and controlled Kashmir's strategic Uri-Poonch bulge, much to [Pakistani president] Ayub's chagrin."
Pakistan continues to observe 6 September as "defence day", but the zest and gusto associated with the celebrations has dampened in recent decades.
One reason is the passing of the 1965 generation. Secondly, the threat of militant attacks during the last ten years have forced military parades, air shows and armament displays to become more low key.
Another is that an alternative view of the chronology and consequences of the war has gained more currency in Pakistan.
Earlier it was believed that the 1965 war had been initiated by India with a view to capturing Lahore and breaking Pakistan. Celebrations were centred on the "valiant defence" by the Pakistani armed forces defeated that aim.
More recently some influential politicians and members of the armed forces have publicly stated that all wars with India were initiated by Pakistan.
Had the 1965 war been a success, the argument goes, it would not have led to the demise and humiliation of Field Marshal Ayub Khan, Pakistan's first military ruler under whose watch the war was fought.
India has never celebrated any of its wars on such a grand scale, so why this big victory carnival now?
"It's 50 years since we won the war, if you won't celebrate it now then when will you do?" asked the defence ministry's Sitanshu Kar.
Not all Indians, however, are enthusiastic about the celebrations and the defence expert at Delhi-based Centre for Police Research, Srinath Raghavan, says the idea of the "victory carnival" is "absurd".
Image captionThe 1965 war was fought in the mountains of Kashmir
"It smacks of bad taste. What do you have a carnival for? It is not a bad idea to commemorate the war, but it should be a solemn occasion, not a frivolous display of song and dance."
He said the government's plans to spend 350m rupees ($5.5m; £3.5m) on the event was "a waste of resources".
A former army soldier who fought in the 1999 Kargil conflict against Pakistan, he said, "the commemoration should not be jingoistic, it should be used to remember all the lives lost - of soldiers and civilians - on the border".
Image captionBoth India and Pakistan claim to have won the war
Although Islamabad has not commented officially, the plan for the victory carnival has, as expected, drawn criticism from Pakistan with some saying it could have a negative impact on bilateral ties.
Mr Raghavan also believes that it could lead to "unnecessary unpleasantness" at a time when the two countries have said they want to restart the dialogue process.
"A better way to commemorate the war," he said, "would be to inform people what this war was really about, to get the conversation going and foster a genuine historic dialogue about it."
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-33815204
meghdut
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2012
- Messages
- 269
- Reaction score
- 0
- Country
- Location
It was a military stalemate. I would call it a tactical draw. None of the two warring nation could conduct successful offensive operation. This is proven by the performance of both countries premier strike force, the 1st Armoured Divisions of both IA and PA. Both failed miserably in their stated goals of securing Chawinda and developing a threat to Amritsar respectively. However both countries succeeded in defensive operations. Both captured each others territory, but that it is mostly meaningless to compare who captured how much.
Politically/Strategically it was a setback for Pakistan. They could not get India to make concessions on the Kashmir Issue. Which was the whole point of the conflict. Rather it hardened India's position on Kashmir and contributed to India's support to Mukti Bahini during 1971 war.
Politically/Strategically it was a setback for Pakistan. They could not get India to make concessions on the Kashmir Issue. Which was the whole point of the conflict. Rather it hardened India's position on Kashmir and contributed to India's support to Mukti Bahini during 1971 war.
The Headache
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2014
- Messages
- 481
- Reaction score
- -2
- Country
- Location
Abu Zolfiqar
Rest in Peace
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2009
- Messages
- 22,555
- Reaction score
- 22
- Country
- Location
The PAF vs. IAF attrition rate speaks wonders WRT to the Air Wars.
On the ground, it was largely a stalemate, the war itself didnt last long enough. On defense of Pakistan especially Lahore and the Punjab the ground forces backed by air power pulverized the enemy and we are proud of that.
On the ground, it was largely a stalemate, the war itself didnt last long enough. On defense of Pakistan especially Lahore and the Punjab the ground forces backed by air power pulverized the enemy and we are proud of that.
Sneaker
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2014
- Messages
- 1,867
- Reaction score
- -30
- Country
- Location
What is the attrition rate of IAF and PAF as per you? Most neutral source I came across put it as IAF-1.5% and PAF-1.82%
My history is not as good as "THE AUSTRALIAN" but wasn't african desert "campain" not a single tank battle? and the biggest tank battle, wasn't battle of Kursk (conveniently fought after aftrican desert campaign?).. jus saying...
Hamza913
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2015
- Messages
- 8,954
- Reaction score
- 11
- Country
- Location
If your not going to say anything useful don't say anything at all.
India's main goal was to take them. If they simply wanted to spread our troops thin, then explain propaganda like this:
India tried to launch a major offensive and take Pakistan's 2nd largest city. It failed.
India couldn't beat a country several times smaller than itself, its own PM died of shock from the ceasefire, and India hastily returned any land it took. And then India claims it won. That's just plain silly.
OrionHunter
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- May 28, 2011
- Messages
- 13,818
- Reaction score
- -5
- Country
- Location
Pakistan started all wars against India and lost all wars. Air Marshal Asghar Khan.
Yep! That's from the horse's mouth - Pakistan's ex Air Chief! What can be more authentic than his report?
And then, if Pakistan had won the 1965 war to capture Kashmir in Op Gibraltar, then Kashmir would have been part of Pakistan by now! But it isn't. Pakistan failed to achieve its strategic objectives as the Pak Air Chief himself said.
So in a nutshell, Pakistan lost the 1965 war against India.
QED.
Yep! That's from the horse's mouth - Pakistan's ex Air Chief! What can be more authentic than his report?
And then, if Pakistan had won the 1965 war to capture Kashmir in Op Gibraltar, then Kashmir would have been part of Pakistan by now! But it isn't. Pakistan failed to achieve its strategic objectives as the Pak Air Chief himself said.
So in a nutshell, Pakistan lost the 1965 war against India.
QED.
AnnoyingOrange
BANNED
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2012
- Messages
- 4,251
- Reaction score
- -27
- Country
- Location
No one won... Pakistan wanted to capture Kashmir via Operation Gibraltar followed by Operation grand Slam.. and could not .. India moved into Pakistan to pressurize and stopped at Lahore.... it ended in a stalemate....
The Headache
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2014
- Messages
- 481
- Reaction score
- -2
- Country
- Location
Ironical though !
Similar threads
