Who Will Win Asia's Fifth-Generation Fighter Race?

[GS Zhou]

Sorry, I forget China never made a stealth fighter before.

these must be cartoons...

 

[BoQ77]

these must be cartoons...

View attachment 279972
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Ok you got the experience to manufacture the stealth fighter. Ok?
So how you translate the success of Kawasaki for P1, Mitsubishi for MRJ ?
Remember, Mitsubishi made F15J back to 1981.

Don't they have technology and skill?

Read more http://www.sjac.or.jp/common/pdf/hp_english/07.pdf

Kawasaki C1

Kawasaki XC-2

 

[GS Zhou]

There would be thousand F-35 manufactured

A thousand F35? Would you pay for it? Do you have any idea how expensive F-35 is???

Look at CNBC's report on F-35:
"A single Air Force F-35A costs a whopping $148 million. One Marine Corps F-35B costs an unbelievable $251 million. A lone Navy F-35C costs a mind-boggling $337 million. These are just the production costs. Additional expenses for research, development, test and evaluation are not included"

Remember, this is the price for Pentagon! If for export, how much additional premium is likely to be added!!!

 

[FlyCheatter]

 

[tanlixiang28776]

Whether some members like it or not China and Russia are at the end of the prototype stage with China at 8 prototypes and Russia at 5 and are heading into the LRIP stage and then serial production. None of the other countries in question even have a true size prototype with Japan having a miniature prototype so far.

China and Russia will win the race outside of divine intervention.

 

[GS Zhou]

Ok you got the experience to manufacture the stealth fighter. Ok?
So how you translate the success of Kawasaki for P1, Mitsubishi for MRJ ?
Remember, Mitsubishi made F15J back to 1981.

Don't they have technology and skill?

Kawasaki C1

Kawasaki XC-2

For the Kawasaki C2, do you know how many units Japan procured in the last four Fiscal Years (2013 to 2016)? Only 3 units in total!!

So, either Japan government is short of the money (Kawasaki is running for profits! It's not charity!), or C2 could not meet the expectations of the Japan Military Force.

 

[BoQ77]

For the Kawasaki C2, do you know how many units Japan procured in the last four Fiscal Years (2013 to 2016)? Only 3 units in total!!

So, either Japan government is short of the money (Kawasaki is running for profits! It's not charity!), or C2 could not meet the expectations of the Japan Military Force.

You may not know that when Chinese airliners buy V2500 engines, the biggest part of profit went to Japan
PARIS AIR SHOW, Paris, June 17, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- China Eastern Airlines has signed a 12-year V-Services Fleet Hour Agreement (FHA) for its 10 Airbus A320ceo aircraft. The V2500 engine service is offered through IAE International Aero Engines AG, a multinational aero engine consortium whose shareholders comprise Pratt & Whitney (NYSE: UTX), Pratt & Whitney Aero Engines International GmbH, Japanese Aero Engines Corporation and MTU Aero Engines.

JAEC means : IHI, KHI, MHI

The Japanese Aero Engine Corporation, consisting of:

• Kawasaki Heavy Industries
• Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries
• Mitsubishi Heavy Industries

BOC Aviation Announces More Orders For V2500 Engines To Power A320 Aircraft
15 JUN 2015

BOC Aviation is pleased to announce the signing of a new agreement for firm orders of V2500®engines to power 14 new Airbus A320 family aircraft, the second order for this engine type this year.

The V2500 engine is offered through IAE International Aero Engines, an aero engine consortium led by Pratt & Whitney (NYSE: UTX) in collaboration with Pratt & Whitney Aero Engines International GmbH, Japanese Aero Engines Corporation and MTU Aero Engines.

“This order further underscores our confidence in the V2500 engine as a fuel-efficient workhorse for more than 150 aircraft in our history, and a significant portion of our A320 family fleet on order,” said Robert Martin, Managing Director & Chief Executive Officer of BOC Aviation. “Our longstanding relationship with IAE enables us to provide an attractive airframe and engine solution for our global A320 family customer base.”

“We are pleased that BOC Aviation has selected the V2500 engine for additional A320ceo family aircraft,” said Greg Gernhardt, President of Pratt & Whitney Commercial Engines. “The V2500 engine has a strong track record of superior performance and has been chosen again as a reliable power plant for the A320ceo family aircraft for BOC Aviation, as well as its airline customers for many years.”

BOC Aviation is a leading global aircraft leasing company with a portfolio of 251 owned and managed aircraft operated by 60 airlines worldwide in 30 countries, with commitments to acquire 196 aircraft, as of 31 March 2015. The Company has one of the youngest fleets in the industry with an average owned aircraft age of less than four years. BOC Aviation, owned by Bank of China, is based in Singapore with offices in Dublin, London, Seattle and Tianjin.

For the Kawasaki C2, do you know how many units Japan procured in the last four Fiscal Years (2013 to 2016)? Only 3 units in total!!

So, either Japan government is short of the money (Kawasaki is running for profits! It's not charity!), or C2 could not meet the expectations of the Japan Military Force.

They don't need to be hurry. They have a lot of C1 and C130

 

[GS Zhou]

You may not know that when Chinese airliners buy V2500 engines, the biggest part of profit went to Japan
PARIS AIR SHOW, Paris, June 17, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- China Eastern Airlines has signed a 12-year V-Services Fleet Hour Agreement (FHA) for its 10 Airbus A320ceo aircraft. The V2500 engine service is offered through IAE International Aero Engines AG, a multinational aero engine consortium whose shareholders comprise Pratt & Whitney (NYSE: UTX), Pratt & Whitney Aero Engines International GmbH, Japanese Aero Engines Corporation and MTU Aero Engines.

JAEC means : IHI, KHI, MHI

The Japanese Aero Engine Corporation, consisting of:

• Kawasaki Heavy Industries
• Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries
• Mitsubishi Heavy Industries

BOC Aviation Announces More Orders For V2500 Engines To Power A320 Aircraft
15 JUN 2015

BOC Aviation is pleased to announce the signing of a new agreement for firm orders of V2500®engines to power 14 new Airbus A320 family aircraft, the second order for this engine type this year.

The V2500 engine is offered through IAE International Aero Engines, an aero engine consortium led by Pratt & Whitney (NYSE: UTX) in collaboration with Pratt & Whitney Aero Engines International GmbH, Japanese Aero Engines Corporation and MTU Aero Engines.

“This order further underscores our confidence in the V2500 engine as a fuel-efficient workhorse for more than 150 aircraft in our history, and a significant portion of our A320 family fleet on order,” said Robert Martin, Managing Director & Chief Executive Officer of BOC Aviation. “Our longstanding relationship with IAE enables us to provide an attractive airframe and engine solution for our global A320 family customer base.”

“We are pleased that BOC Aviation has selected the V2500 engine for additional A320ceo family aircraft,” said Greg Gernhardt, President of Pratt & Whitney Commercial Engines. “The V2500 engine has a strong track record of superior performance and has been chosen again as a reliable power plant for the A320ceo family aircraft for BOC Aviation, as well as its airline customers for many years.”

BOC Aviation is a leading global aircraft leasing company with a portfolio of 251 owned and managed aircraft operated by 60 airlines worldwide in 30 countries, with commitments to acquire 196 aircraft, as of 31 March 2015. The Company has one of the youngest fleets in the industry with an average owned aircraft age of less than four years. BOC Aviation, owned by Bank of China, is based in Singapore with offices in Dublin, London, Seattle and Tianjin.

You may not know that when Chinese airliners buy V2500 engines, the biggest part of profit went to Japan
PARIS AIR SHOW, Paris, June 17, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- China Eastern Airlines has signed a 12-year V-Services Fleet Hour Agreement (FHA) for its 10 Airbus A320ceo aircraft. The V2500 engine service is offered through IAE International Aero Engines AG, a multinational aero engine consortium whose shareholders comprise Pratt & Whitney (NYSE: UTX), Pratt & Whitney Aero Engines International GmbH, Japanese Aero Engines Corporation and MTU Aero Engines.

JAEC means : IHI, KHI, MHI

The Japanese Aero Engine Corporation, consisting of:

• Kawasaki Heavy Industries
• Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries
• Mitsubishi Heavy Industries

BOC Aviation Announces More Orders For V2500 Engines To Power A320 Aircraft
15 JUN 2015

BOC Aviation is pleased to announce the signing of a new agreement for firm orders of V2500®engines to power 14 new Airbus A320 family aircraft, the second order for this engine type this year.

The V2500 engine is offered through IAE International Aero Engines, an aero engine consortium led by Pratt & Whitney (NYSE: UTX) in collaboration with Pratt & Whitney Aero Engines International GmbH, Japanese Aero Engines Corporation and MTU Aero Engines.

“This order further underscores our confidence in the V2500 engine as a fuel-efficient workhorse for more than 150 aircraft in our history, and a significant portion of our A320 family fleet on order,” said Robert Martin, Managing Director & Chief Executive Officer of BOC Aviation. “Our longstanding relationship with IAE enables us to provide an attractive airframe and engine solution for our global A320 family customer base.”

“We are pleased that BOC Aviation has selected the V2500 engine for additional A320ceo family aircraft,” said Greg Gernhardt, President of Pratt & Whitney Commercial Engines. “The V2500 engine has a strong track record of superior performance and has been chosen again as a reliable power plant for the A320ceo family aircraft for BOC Aviation, as well as its airline customers for many years.”

BOC Aviation is a leading global aircraft leasing company with a portfolio of 251 owned and managed aircraft operated by 60 airlines worldwide in 30 countries, with commitments to acquire 196 aircraft, as of 31 March 2015. The Company has one of the youngest fleets in the industry with an average owned aircraft age of less than four years. BOC Aviation, owned by Bank of China, is based in Singapore with offices in Dublin, London, Seattle and Tianjin.

Business is business. China currently still can not make an A320-level engine, and we never deny it.

Nevertheless, V2500 is still an American engine that developed and made by US. Japan's stakes in the engine partnership doesn't mean Japan obtained the engine technology. Pls remember, Mitsubishi MRJ is using the PW1200G engine from P&W.

BTW, for the Mitsubishi MRJ that you look to be very proud of (although I couldn't understand why a VN guy could feel proud of a JP stuff), here is the supplier list for your reference.

They don't need to be hurry. They have a lot of C1 and C130

Wow, what a perfect explanation!

Japan doesn't get any new fighters since 2011. So it must be that Japan has plenty of F15, F2, and all the F15, F2 are in perfect status. Am I right?

Japanese News about "parts falling while the F15J flying over the sky". The Chinese character highlighted means "fall"

F2 during the 2012 tsunami.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

China has pretty much already won. Japan will take the lead after.

 

[BoQ77]

Business is business. China currently still can not make an A320-level engine, and we never deny it.

Nevertheless, V2500 is still an American engine that developed and made by US. Japan's stakes in the engine partnership doesn't mean Japan obtained the engine technology. Pls remember, Mitsubishi MRJ is using the PW1200G engine from P&W.

Mitsubishi MRJ uses the engines partly made by JAEC which incl. of Mitsubishi Heavy Industry.

PRESS RELEASE

Pratt & Whitney, JAEC and MTU to Collaborate on PurePower® PW1100G-JM for Airbus A320neo Program

EAST HARTFORD, CONN., WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 28, 2011
Today, Pratt & Whitney, Japan Aero Engines Corporation (JAEC) and MTU Aero Engines AG announced they will collaborate to provide the PurePower PW1100G-JM engine for the A320neo program. Pratt & Whitney is a division of United Technologies Corp. (NYSE:UTX).

"We have been long-standing partners with JAEC and MTU in International Aero Engines' (IAE) V2500 program. The three parties plan to build upon their successful experience in the current IAE V2500 collaboration to help shape their new alliance," said Todd Kallman, president, Commercial Engines & Global Services for Pratt & Whitney. "We have reached an agreement with JAEC and MTU to join Pratt & Whitney's already launched PW1100G engine program for Airbus' newest aircraft program and added the "JM" designation recognizing JAEC and MTU on formally joining this PurePower engine program."

Under the collaboration agreement, MTU will hold an 18 percent share and be responsible for the low pressure turbine (LPT) and participate jointly with Pratt & Whitney in the high pressure compressor (HPC). JAEC will hold a 23 percent share and be responsible for the fan, low pressure compressor (LPC) and combustor/diffuser. Pratt & Whitney will be responsible for the remainder of the engine and systems integration.

The PurePower PW1000G series engines use an advanced gear system allowing the engine's fan to operate at a different speed than the low-pressure compressor and turbine. The combination of the gear system and an all-new advanced core deliver double-digit improvements in fuel efficiency, environmental emissions and noise.

Pratt & Whitney is a world leader in the design, manufacture and service of aircraft engines, space propulsion systems and industrial gas turbines. United Technologies, based in Hartford, Conn., is a diversified company providing high technology products and services to the global aerospace and building industries.

- See more at: Story

PRESS RELEASE

Pratt & Whitney Concludes PurePower® Geared Turbofan® Engine Partnering with Recent Kawasaki Heavy Industries Agreement

EAST HARTFORD, CONN., THURSDAY, DECEMBER 18, 2014
Pratt & Whitney and Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd. (KHI) met recently to commemorate the signing of a risk and revenue-sharing collaboration agreement for KHI to provide key hardware modules for Pratt & Whitney's PurePower Geared Turbofan (GTF) engines. Pratt & Whitney is a division of United Technologies Corporation (NYSE:UTX).

An example of a successful partnership is Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Aero Engines, which performs engine assembly and test on the PW1200G engine for the MRJ as well as MTU Aero Engines AG (MTU), which performs assemble and test on some of the PW1100G-JM engines for the Airbus A320neo.

-

- See more at: Story

 

[GS Zhou]

Mitsubishi MRJ uses the engines partly made by JAEC which incl. of Mitsubishi Heavy Industry.

PRESS RELEASE

Pratt & Whitney, JAEC and MTU to Collaborate on PurePower® PW1100G-JM for Airbus A320neo Program

EAST HARTFORD, CONN., WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 28, 2011
Today, Pratt & Whitney, Japan Aero Engines Corporation (JAEC) and MTU Aero Engines AG announced they will collaborate to provide the PurePower PW1100G-JM engine for the A320neo program. Pratt & Whitney is a division of United Technologies Corp. (NYSE:UTX).

"We have been long-standing partners with JAEC and MTU in International Aero Engines' (IAE) V2500 program. The three parties plan to build upon their successful experience in the current IAE V2500 collaboration to help shape their new alliance," said Todd Kallman, president, Commercial Engines & Global Services for Pratt & Whitney. "We have reached an agreement with JAEC and MTU to join Pratt & Whitney's already launched PW1100G engine program for Airbus' newest aircraft program and added the "JM" designation recognizing JAEC and MTU on formally joining this PurePower engine program."

Under the collaboration agreement, MTU will hold an 18 percent share and be responsible for the low pressure turbine (LPT) and participate jointly with Pratt & Whitney in the high pressure compressor (HPC). JAEC will hold a 23 percent share and be responsible for the fan, low pressure compressor (LPC) and combustor/diffuser. Pratt & Whitney will be responsible for the remainder of the engine and systems integration.

The PurePower PW1000G series engines use an advanced gear system allowing the engine's fan to operate at a different speed than the low-pressure compressor and turbine. The combination of the gear system and an all-new advanced core deliver double-digit improvements in fuel efficiency, environmental emissions and noise.

Pratt & Whitney is a world leader in the design, manufacture and service of aircraft engines, space propulsion systems and industrial gas turbines. United Technologies, based in Hartford, Conn., is a diversified company providing high technology products and services to the global aerospace and building industries.

- See more at: Story

PRESS RELEASE

Pratt & Whitney Concludes PurePower® Geared Turbofan® Engine Partnering with Recent Kawasaki Heavy Industries Agreement

EAST HARTFORD, CONN., THURSDAY, DECEMBER 18, 2014
Pratt & Whitney and Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd. (KHI) met recently to commemorate the signing of a risk and revenue-sharing collaboration agreement for KHI to provide key hardware modules for Pratt & Whitney's PurePower Geared Turbofan (GTF) engines. Pratt & Whitney is a division of United Technologies Corporation (NYSE:UTX).
-

- See more at: Story

Not sure about your intention to post the news here. Maybe you want to say that given JP's stakes in the engine joint venture, as well as the business for engine parts exports, Japan must thereof gain strong aero-engines technologies.

Look at China side:

Joint venture example:
Safran and AVIC signed today, through their respective companies Snecma and SAIC, a framework agreement on the creation of a common entity in China in the field of turboprop engine for commercial aircraft. The aim of this cooperation is to design, test and produce power turbines and flame tubes for the two parent companies. Snecma and SAIC will hold respectively 50% of total stock right in this new common entity located in China.

Can I thereof follow your logic that China gets the aero-engine technology from the JV?

Aero-Engine parts export business

Original news in Chinese:
前不久，公司与美国GE公司在签订了1.18亿美元新型发动机零件转包生产合同。公司董事长张民生与GE航空全球采购总经理梅利莎•戴维斯签署了标的1.18亿美元的新型发动机零件的订单。

Translation for you: AVIC Xi'an Aero Engine (XAE) signed a USD 118 million contract with GE to supply parts to the GE aero engines. The contract is signed between the XAE Chairman and GE Engine Global Sourcing Director.

Can I follow your logic again that China could make GE-standard aero-engines now?

XAE to supply engines parts to GE

 

[BoQ77]

Not sure about your intention to post the news here. Maybe you want to say that given JP's stakes in the engine joint venture, as well as the business for engine parts exports, Japan must thereof gain strong aero-engines technologies.

Look at China side:

Joint venture example:
Safran and AVIC signed today, through their respective companies Snecma and SAIC, a framework agreement on the creation of a common entity in China in the field of turboprop engine for commercial aircraft. The aim of this cooperation is to design, test and produce power turbines and flame tubes for the two parent companies. Snecma and SAIC will hold respectively 50% of total stock right in this new common entity located in China.

Can I thereof follow your logic that China gets the aero-engine technology from the JV?

Aero-Engine parts export business

Original news in Chinese:
前不久，公司与美国GE公司在签订了1.18亿美元新型发动机零件转包生产合同。公司董事长张民生与GE航空全球采购总经理梅利莎•戴维斯签署了标的1.18亿美元的新型发动机零件的订单。

Translation for you: AVIC Xi'an Aero Engine (XAE) signed a USD 118 million contract with GE to supply parts to the GE aero engines. The contract is signed between the XAE Chairman and GE Engine Global Sourcing Director.

Can I follow your logic again that China could make GE-standard aero-engines now?

XAE to supply engines parts to GE

Yeah. Ring and bearing

AVIC Xi’an Aero-Engine (Group) Ltd. announced on November 15 that the company has signed a manufacturing contract on aircraft engine components with General Electric Co (GE) worth 118 million dollars. The order spans six years from 2015 to 2020, during which GE will purchase a total of 11 specifications including rings and bearings.

REad this
http://www.sjac.or.jp/common/pdf/hp_english/07.pdf

 

[GS Zhou]

Yeah. Ring and bearing

AVIC Xi’an Aero-Engine (Group) Ltd. announced on November 15 that the company has signed a manufacturing contract on aircraft engine components with General Electric Co (GE) worth 118 million dollars. The order spans six years from 2015 to 2020, during which GE will purchase a total of 11 specifications including rings and bearings.

Eleven specifications and you just mentioned two. Can an aircraft fly safely without qualified engine bearings or rings?

XAE is just a small example. In addition to XAE, many other Chinese companies are involved in aero engine parts export as well, like Liming, Guizhou or Hongdu. Besides GE, they also supply engine components to RR, PW or Boeing. But even though, we still couldn't say China now has the capabilities for aero engines used by large commercial aircraft. China could only prove himself when C929 could use china-developed engines. This logic is not only applicable to China, but also applicable to Japan.

 

[BoQ77]

A thousand F35? Would you pay for it? Do you have any idea how expensive F-35 is???

Look at CNBC's report on F-35:
"A single Air Force F-35A costs a whopping $148 million. One Marine Corps F-35B costs an unbelievable $251 million. A lone Navy F-35C costs a mind-boggling $337 million. These are just the production costs. Additional expenses for research, development, test and evaluation are not included"

Remember, this is the price for Pentagon! If for export, how much additional premium is likely to be added!!!

Thousands F35 would be made. that enrich the skills and enrich the participants of the projects including subcontractors

The price would be lower when F35 was mass produced.

By the end of 2015 the price down 57% since LRIP 1.

New F-35 Prices: A: $95M; B: $102M; C: $116M
By Colin Clark on November 21, 2014 at 5:01 PM

WASHINGTON: Lockheed and the government made it official today, signing the $4.7 billion eighth Low Rate Initial Production contract for the F-35.

Here’s the full price and the official language: “Lockheed Martin Corp., Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co., Fort Worth, Texas, is being awarded a $4,123,746,486 modification to a previously awarded fixed-price-incentive firm-target contract (N00019-13-C-0008) for the production of 43 Low Rate Initial Production (LRIP) Lot VIII F-35 Lightning II aircraft. The contract includes $500 million for advance procurement.”

As Breaking D readers already know, this pays for 43 airframes: 29 for the United States and 14 for five international countries. The average cost per airframe (engines are a separate contract) costs are roughly “3.5 percent lower than the LRIP 7 contract signed in 2013 and a 57 percent reduction since LRIP 1,” according to a Joint Program Office statement.

The airframe prices (read the headline) should be read in light of the bold pledge made last Decemberby the general manager for the JSF, Lorraine Martin. She said that by 2019, the F-35A (the Air Force version) will cost $75 million a copy in current dollars ($85 million in good ole then-year dollars, i.e. counting future inflation), which will be “less than any fourth generation fighter in the world.”

The breakdown of the US buy is: 19 F-35As for the Air Force; six F-35Bs for the Marines and four F-35Cs for the Navy. Israel gets it first two F-35As and Japan gets it first four. Norway gets another two F-35As and Italy gets two. The Brits get four F-35Bs. First deliveries come in early spring next year. After they are all delivered eight countries will be flying 200 F-35s.

 

[cnleio]

Kawasaki XC-2

I like the engine, where to get it ?