Who has better Air Force India or Pakistan

[PradoTLC]

Indians are incompetent.... they couldnt lead donkeys to a picnic.

 

[Fireurimagination]

If IAF can strike inside Pakistan in Balakot (forget in Pakistan's Kashmir) with Mirage 2000 with such ease and zero resistance from PAF even when the theater was hot, I would say IAF

If Pakistan jumps into India - China conflict then what stops US or other countries to jump in to. In fact being attacked by two countries gives India a great excuse to go nuclear.

 

[Fighting Falcon 01]

If IAF can strike inside Pakistan in Balakot (forget in Pakistan's Kashmir) with Mirage 2000 with such ease and zero resistance from PAF even when the theater was hot, I would say IAF

If Pakistan jumps into India - China conflict then what stops US or other countries to jump in to. In fact being attacked by two countries gives India a great excuse to go nuclear.

IAF never crossed the border just dropped SOWs and ran away like cowards you Indians just don't have any shame in you despite knowing the truth you guys keep on saying the same thing...... meanwhile you lost an su 30 a mig 21 and an mi 17 helicopter in a single day ..... if India goes nuclear you think China and Pakistan will not use theirs this entire region will turn into dust ....and finally the world will be free of this lying cancer called the Indian nation

 

[Invicta]

I was wondering what will be pakistans stand if china and India starts war.Do Pakistan get involved in such war openly by standing besides their all weather friend china or they will remain neutral.What will be best for Pakistan interests

No one can be sure what would happen in all out war as there will be too many variables that could influence the outcome.

Looking purely at the equipment, IAF has every toy that is wants and can have. PAF not so much.

Looking at training, PAF they have instructors in many GCC and train many African nations as well, take part in more multinational exercise with allies (Turkey, USA, China). IAF not in the same league, their exercises with US etc have been lopsided with constraints on using full aircraft capability, their instructors in foreign air forces are few.

Sensor fusion i.e. AWACs and EW platform, at this time its PAF, IAF lacks the sensor fusion that PAF has achieved and this is entirely down to the great number of different platforms IAF has at its disposal. This will change is India gets more AWACs, something they are trying to rectify.

A lot can be said and you can look at number of pilots vs aircraft numbers, maintenance turnaround etc. All this will remain on the paper. What will count is, on the day of reckoning who turns up with their A-Game.

 

[Figaro]

Sensor fusion i.e. AWACs and EW platform, at this time its PAF, IAF lacks the sensor fusion that PAF has achieved and this is entirely down to the great number of different platforms IAF has at its disposal. This will change is India gets more AWACs, something they are trying to rectify.

Hence one of the major reasons the Indians opted for the Rafales. Their Su-30MKIs could not even establish datalink on Feb 27, which really speaks to how far Russia is behind in this regard. The PAF, which is already superior to the IAF in this regard, will take another huge leap once the Block III comes online.

 

[Fireurimagination]

IAF never crossed the border just dropped SOWs and ran away like cowards you Indians just don't have any shame in you despite knowing the truth you guys keep on saying the same thing...... meanwhile you lost an su 30 a mig 21 and an mi 17 helicopter in a single day ..... if India goes nuclear you think China and Pakistan will not use theirs this entire region will turn into dust ....and finally the world will be free of this lying cancer called the Indian nation

Villagers near Balakot say nobody killed or injured by Indian aircraft

We lost a Mig in Pakistani airspace when it successfully intercepted and was chasing away intruders, the story of our SU30 and your F16 are just figment of people's imagination unless concrete proof is there

The whole idea of nuclear war is MAD, no India, no China, no Pakistan

 

[The Accountant]

In a short skirmish like 26 & 27 feb, anyone or both can gain the upper hand.
But in a long war, definitely IAF.

The question is not about who will win but who is better? Long war is highly unlikely in case of India and Pakistan. Look at 27 Feb incident. 2 planes down and India brought in missile batteries.

So while nukes have increased the threshold o war but once a full fledged war starts it has a potential to convert nuclear soon.

So your assumption that India is superior mere on number of aircraft is false assumption.

 

[Invicta]

Hence one of the major reasons the Indians opted for the Rafales. Their Su-30MKIs could not even establish datalink on Feb 27, which really speaks to how far Russia is behind in this regard. The PAF, which is already superior to the IAF in this regard, will take another huge leap once the Block III comes online.

I don't think that even Rafael can provide all the answers for them, if all force multipliers were destroyed on PAF side Rafael in such a scenario will be a game changer. One on one this platform is to be reckoned with, however, the likelihood of that happening is remote. The cost for IAF to achieve total destruction of PAF's force multipliers is too large for them to attempt, even if they were to attempt it the loss in man and material will be too high.

PAF is going in the right direction, the days of buying a one of cutting edge platform and changing the tide of war are long gone. In 65 & 71 era you could buy a new platform and claim to destroy your opponent. Those days are now long gone, force multipliers and sensor fusion is the new game.

As long as your force has all its sensors singing from the same hymn sheet your opponent can throw as many multi million pound platforms as they want, 1-off platforms on their own don't amount to much.

Problem with IAF is that they want to maintain their squadron numbers, for them to have all their aircraft synced together its neigh on impossible. You have Jaguars, Mirage 2000's, Mig29s. Su30's, Mig21 and now the Rafael's. It a nice menu and a fan boys dream but in the real world this many platforms are a logistical and strategic nightmare.

 

[Figaro]

I don't think that even Rafael can provide all the answers for them, if all force multipliers were destroyed on PAF side Rafael in such a scenario will be a game changer. One on one this platform is to be reckoned with, however, the likelihood of that happening is remote. The cost for IAF to achieve total destruction of PAF's force multipliers is too large for them to attempt, even if they were to attempt it the loss in man and material will be too high.

PAF is going in the right direction, the days of buying a one of cutting edge platform and changing the tide of war are long gone. In 65 & 71 era you could buy a new platform and claim to destroy your opponent. Those days are now long gone, force multipliers and sensor fusion is the new game.

As long as your force has all its sensors singing from the same hymn sheet your opponent can throw as many multi million pound platforms as they want, 1-off platforms on their own don't amount to much.

Problem with IAF is that they want to maintain their squadron numbers, for them to have all their aircraft synced together its neigh on impossible. You have Jaguars, Mirage 2000's, Mig29s. Su30's, Mig21 and now the Rafael's. It a nice menu and a fan boys dream but in the real world this many platforms are a logistical and strategic nightmare.

The Indian Air Force's integration is an absolute nightmare to say the least. A part of their airforce (e.g. Rafales) is using the NATO standard while the other is using the Russian standard. I really don't think there would be any datalink/sensor fusion between these platforms in wartime, especially considering the Russian planes cannot even successfully data link amongst themselves. The Indians need to decide which country's aircraft their air force will form the basis of ... either all Russian or all NATO (the latter is looking much more likely now).

 

[Invicta]

The Indian Air Force's integration is an absolute nightmare to say the least. A part of their airforce (e.g. Rafales) is using the NATO standard while the other is using the Russian standard. I really don't think there would be any datalink/sensor fusion between these platforms in wartime, especially considering the Russian planes cannot even successfully data link amongst themselves. The Indians need to decide which country's aircraft their air force will form the basis of ... either all Russian or all NATO (the latter is looking much more likely now).

Well they tried with their first set of AWAC's. They were supposed to provide data link to both Russian and US/Euro platforms but that was a spectacular failure. Not only did they failed in real time when called upon they also realised they did not have the required numbers to provide good coverage in times of crisis. Hence why now the mad dash to get a few more.

What they should be doing is getting Tejas flying and building that as a base platform with sensor fusion in mind. Akin to what PAF has done with JF17. Then phase out the coffins, 29's and 30's.

 

[Cookie Monster]

I was wondering what will be pakistans stand if china and India starts war.Do Pakistan get involved in such war openly by standing besides their all weather friend china or they will remain neutral.What will be best for Pakistan interests

In a short skirmish like 26 & 27 feb, anyone or both can gain the upper hand.
But in a long war, definitely IAF.

Historically even in long wars IAF has never had superiority over PAF in the skies. PAF has gone toe to toe with IAF...and has inflicted equal or more damage to IAF(number of destroyed aircrafts whether on the ground or in the air). The only saving grace of IAF has been its huge numbers...and so even if PAF can match or exceed the number of destroyed aircraft...
...attrition as a percentage of total fighter jets becomes a disadvantage. As things stand now...IAF is operating under strength especially if two front war is considered. So in a scenario the OP is proposing of a two front war...IAF will find itself severely disadvantaged.

 

[Figaro]

Then phase out the coffins, 29's and 30's.

Considering these aircraft form the backbone of the IAF, their air force is indeed doomed IMHO. The fact that they only bought 36 Rafales, instead of the 110 planned, really makes me question the competence of the IAF strategic planners (although to be fair, they had no competence to begin with). As I've said before, the weakest branch of the IAF is the air force, especially with regard to an adversary like China.

 

[Figaro]

In a short skirmish like 26 & 27 feb, anyone or both can gain the upper hand.
But in a long war, definitely IAF.

Not necessarily true at all ... besides the LCA, which are hopeless anyway, the Indians do not produce any fighters domestically (the MKIs have to be assembled using Russian kits). And as the Iranians proved in the Iran Iraq War, skillful tactics can offset long term material advantages to a large extent. If India had a fledgling domestic fighter industry, then I would say you are correct but since it doesn't, even a long war is not guaranteed to be India's favor.

 

[Invicta]

Considering these aircraft form the backbone of the IAF, their air force is indeed doomed IMHO. The fact that they only bought 36 Rafales, instead of the 110 planned, really makes me question the competence of the IAF strategic planners (although to be fair, they had no competence to begin with). As I've said before, the weakest branch of the IAF is the air force, especially with regard to an adversary like China.

I have failed to understand this logic as well, for half my life on this earth I have heard about the MMRCA, it was 120 aircrafts then it became 110 and now its 36. Threat perception in Indian planners is bad, IAF is the weakest however they make it up with numbers. What they should have done was forced IAF to get Tejas and then spend this money to make it better. Then they could have bought 220 pieces.

The days of countries buying 120 odd, state of the art aircraft in one hit are long gone unless of course you have oil wealth.

 

[Figaro]

What they should have done was forced IAF to get Tejas and then spend this money to make it better. Then they could have bought 220 pieces.

Actually, I think this is even worse than acquiring state of the art aircraft like the Rafales. The Tejas are extremely mediocre/poor planes which are not even 4th generation aircraft. Throwing more money into the program is like throwing money into a pit ... the Tejas are flying coffins and no matter what improvements they seek, it will always be like this. Just like the Kaveri or the Arjun, the Indians have truly overestimated their capabilities and are now paying the price since they do not even have a domestic 4th gen fighter.