Who gets to be a Muslim in Pakistan?

[Thor]

I have posted this once before and wish to do so again and hope that Muslims here come to some understanding and not be fooled by religious leaders of today

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The biggest problem here is the lack of education within all communities/sects/Jamaats. If, and I stress that word IF the people followed the path as laid by the Almighty as based on the Quran and Sunnah, you would not have been having these problems today.

The religious leaders of today remind me of the mushriks of Makkah......... they housed 360 idols in and around the Kaabah, each idol worshipped by different tribes from all over Arabia, who visited Makkah every year and this bought in revenue and captial for the leaders like Abu Sufyan..... he like other powerful elite believed that if they got rid of the idols in order to worship one God, then they will loose their income and wealth and as such played a strong role in their early stance against Islam. It was only when Islam conquered that those who survived realised the face of Makkah would change forever as it is today.

These religious leaders of today fear the same, power....... if they allowed Muslims to think for themselves then they would no longer have the control and the wealth they scrounge off their "mureed's" today.

All Muslims should remember one thing, if there are any differences between us then refer to the Quran... as it has stated

“O you who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger and those of you who are in authority. If you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination.” (4: 59)

Everything, upto the time and death of our beloved prophet Muhamad (PBUH) is what Islam is.........all other issues that have arisen after that are political differences, not religious.....why.......because again

"This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion." (5:3)

All the differences between Shiite and Sunni for example, regardless of the viewpoints is all political.....in todays terms, who would be the next Prime Minister or President. A companion of the Prohet (Sunni viewpoint) or the family of the Prophet's household (Ahl-e-bait - Shiite viewpoint)........ regardless of the views, the matter is political and not religious.....The mere fact that you separate yourself into different groups/Jamaats/Sects, the instance you do that you move away from the teachings of the beloved.....why, the following are verses not quoted often by these religious figures as they stand against them........

"And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided." (3:103)

and He further warns the Prophet

"Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only

to Allah ; then He will inform them about what they used to do."​

​

​

(6:159)

Here Allah warns the Prophet NOT to associate with such people........... Such is the glory of the Almighty, that He does not throw such people out of the fold of Islam, but warns that their affair with Him and he will show them their wrongs. Why, because people like me who do not believe in any Sect, as taught by the Prophet does not hate any Muslim regardless of him being Sunni or Shiite. I do not hate them or like them, I see them as those who follow the generations before them and need awakening. I pray behind them in Mosques and call them to the true beliefs that WE are all of one body. Maybe this is why Allah did not put that such people will no longer be Muslim there......... to avoid those who believe in unity to move away from their kin....... as Allah says

"And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided." (3:103)

Brothers, all of you please open your hearts........ the very second I denied any Jamaat and sect it was like a burden being lifted off me and all prejudice, ALL just evaporates, it is a weird feeling but all of a sudden ALL Muslims who believe in the finality of the Prophet become your Brothers........... truly....DO NOT LET RELIGIOUS LEADERS PLAY WITH ISLAMIC EMOTIONS TO KEEP YOU IN THIS NEVER ENDING TRAP. Just give it a try and see for yourself​

 

[Jango]

Eid Prayer I could understand but how in God's name does one not realize whether there is a Shi'ite or a Sunni standing next to you during the Friday prayers ? Dude...we pray so differently from each other !

P.S I've only entered into a tussle with a Shi'ite once in my life and that was because I - a Sunni and a Butttt - ate the entire Pizza in the 10 minutes it takes for the fast to be broken as per Fiqh Jafriya !

Otherwise the vast majority of us get along very well with each other !

P.P.S Gooner...? Figures...softies and pansy arsed footballers who end up with a broken something even if you sneeze at them !

For the bolded part: You have no idea how emotional I get for Arsenal!

As for the rest, he could be anyone for all i care, but he is praying, and is a Muslim, good enough for me.

Rest is upto Allah.

 

[Riyadh Haque]

......The simple fact is that anyone who believes that there is no deity worth worship other than Allah and Prophet Muhammad is the messenger of Allah (and the last messenger as per Quran) is a Muslim in the eyes of 99.99% Muslims.....

Shia Is Not Islam !!! - YouTube

Are Shias disbelievers? Answered by my favourite Sheikh Dr. Muhammad Salah. - YouTube

Pakistani Shia sisters cursing Abu Bakr, Omar, Othman (1,2,3) - YouTube

 

[pak-marine]

In my personal experience being a shia i remember in my early days in 90's we use to have niaz at our house and many people from our neighbourhood use to come .. i remember it from years and it was a routine , there were no invitations people knew the dates they use to pop in on the perticular day it self. Than suddenly people stopped coming , there were wall chalkings in the neighbourhood calling food cooked some real bad names calling niaz haram etc etc ... I gues it was zia sunni islamization which took effect. Even our freinds avoid eating at our homes i dont know what is it they are fed but definatly the mosque mulla has a role here

 

[Thorough Pro]

Whats your interest in muslims and Pakistan? Stick to your own problems in india.

I am sure a similar group selection methodology was used as the survey which showed majority of Balochis do not want independence..

About daily life, well a lot of times are not very forthcoming about their real views on such sensitive issues...

 

[Riyadh Haque]

.....Faith and belief is a personal matter..you cannot force me to believe or not to beleive in anything..

Source: Traveling Intolerance: Pakistani passport for Muslims « JOURNAL OF HUMANITARIAN AFFAIRS

 

[PAKBARBIE]

radicalization is going to destroy us all. the sectarian divide has grown and continues to grow. i would say that 20 years ago many sunnis were okay with shias. but now its to the point where they wont even eat at their house. when we first moved to canada we stayed with a shia family. and now my dad refuses to even see their faces...

 

[Riyadh Haque]

In my personal experience being a shia i remember in my early days in 90's we use to have niaz at our house and many people from our neighbourhood use to come .. i remember it from years and it was a routine , there were no invitations people knew the dates they use to pop in on the perticular day it self. Than suddenly people stopped coming , there were wall chalkings in the neighbourhood calling food cooked some real bad names calling niaz haram etc etc ... I gues it was zia sunni islamization which took effect. Even our freinds avoid eating at our homes i dont know what is it they are fed but definatly the mosque mulla has a role here

Good point. This is happening everywhere. But it works the other way, too.....

Shias and Sunnis in Saudi Arabia | Saudiwoman's Weblog

Quote from above: "When my family lived in the US we became good friends with another Saudi family who happened to be Shias from Qatif. Once back in Saudi Arabia, we visited them at their home in Qatif. It was quite fun. The family was liberal and we all sat together men and women. They also introduced us to the man’s brother and we got invited to the brother’s house as well. It was generally a pleasant experience. Qatif itself is similar to Qaseem; lots of old building and a whole bunch of areas that are called villages but to me might as well be one great big city because the distance between them doesn’t qualify them to be separate villages. They returned the visit when they came to Riyadh and the wife did something that my whole family thought was strange. They were over for dinner but she would not eat or drink anything"

 

[pak-marine]

Good point. This is happening everywhere. But it works the other way, too.....

Shias and Sunnis in Saudi Arabia | Saudiwoman's Weblog

Quote from above: "When my family lived in the US we became good friends with another Saudi family who happened to be Shias from Qatif. Once back in Saudi Arabia, we visited them at their home in Qatif. It was quite fun. The family was liberal and we all sat together men and women. They also introduced us to the man’s brother and we got invited to the brother’s house as well. It was generally a pleasant experience. Qatif itself is similar to Qaseem; lots of old building and a whole bunch of areas that are called villages but to me might as well be one great big city because the distance between them doesn’t qualify them to be separate villages. They returned the visit when they came to Riyadh and the wife did something that my whole family thought was strange. They were over for dinner but she would not eat or drink anything"

you are right definatly extremists from both sects are involved in promoting hatred but here we are discusing pakistans case in perticular my example was from personal experience and this practice was a routine from decades and within an year or so things changed. Also i have noticed it while leasing properties both sects perticularly mention that they do not want other sect at all. Its strange that over night people stop mingling with their neighbours just because the God damn mulahs tells them to do so. Mosques have a huge impression on peoples lives in Pakistan. These people needs to be stopped urgently and cermons etc are to be controlled by GOP or these people will declare whatever they want to and there will be no end to the hatred

 

[Rafi]

The vast majority of Pakistanis don't care about sect, my family has both Sunni and Shia in it, this has been achieved because of inter marriage.

 

[rubyjackass]

@KingMamba93: He is the only Nobel winner for Pakistan.
fyi
with respect.

 

[KRAIT]

@KingMamba93: He is the only Nobel winner for Pakistan.
fyi
with respect.

He was the one who initiated and supported Pakistan's space program. If only scientists were rewarded for their works not their sect, Pakistan could have achieved more.......

 

[Riyadh Haque]

In daily life I've never met any sunni who thinks Shias are not Muslim, our laws are not defined in such a way..............

They were "not defined in such a way" before, but they could be so defined at any time now:

CONSTITUTION (TWENTIETH AMENDMENT) ACT, 2012

An Act to amend the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan [Gazette of Pakistan, Extraordinary, Part I, 17th August, 2012]

The following Act of Parliament received the assent of the President on 17th August,2012, and is hereby published for general information:-

Whereas it is expedient further to amend the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan for the purposes hereinafter appearing ;

It is hereby enacted as follows:-

1- Short title and commencement.

(1) This Act may be called the CONSTITUTION (TWENTIETH AMENDMENT) ACT, 2012

(2) It shall come into force at once.


2- Amendment of Article 106 of the Constitution.

In the Constitution of Islamic Republic of Pakistan, hereinafter referred to as the Constitution in Article 106, in clause (3) after the words "communities" the words and brackets "and persons of Jafari, Zaidi, Alevi or related Madhabs or the Ahle Tashi (who call themselves 'Shias')" shall be inserted.

3- Amendment of Article 260 of the Constitution.
In the Constitution, in Article 260, after clause (2) the following new clause shall be added, namely--

(3) A person who does not believe in the rightful succession of Hazrat Abu Bakr, Hazrat Umar and Hazrat Usman, the First Three of the Four Rashidun Khalifas; or claims that Hazrat Ali possessed divine qualities or performed miracles, in any sense of the word or of any description whatsoever; or claims that Hazrat Hussein, Hazrat Hasan and their descendents were infallible with divinely-guided knowledge of the unseen and the future, is not a Muslim for the purposes of the Constitution or law."

Source: The Constitution of Pakistan

The Twentieth Amendment

 

[KingMamba]

@KingMamba93: He is the only Nobel winner for Pakistan.
fyi
with respect.

Thanks, I wasn't sure.

They were "not defined in such a way" before, but they could be so defined at any time now:

CONSTITUTION (TWENTIETH AMENDMENT) ACT, 2012

An Act to amend the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan [Gazette of Pakistan, Extraordinary, Part I, 17th August, 2012]

The following Act of Parliament received the assent of the President on 17th August,2012, and is hereby published for general information:-

Whereas it is expedient further to amend the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan for the purposes hereinafter appearing ;

It is hereby enacted as follows:-

1- Short title and commencement.

(1) This Act may be called the CONSTITUTION (TWENTIETH AMENDMENT) ACT, 2012

(2) It shall come into force at once.


2- Amendment of Article 106 of the Constitution.

In the Constitution of Islamic Republic of Pakistan, hereinafter referred to as the Constitution in Article 106, in clause (3) after the words "communities" the words and brackets "and persons of Jafari, Zaidi, Alevi or related Madhabs or the Ahle Tashi (who call themselves 'Shias')" shall be inserted.

3- Amendment of Article 260 of the Constitution.
In the Constitution, in Article 260, after clause (2) the following new clause shall be added, namely--

(3) A person who does not believe in the rightful succession of Hazrat Abu Bakr, Hazrat Umar and Hazrat Usman, the First Three of the Four Rashidun Khalifas; or claims that Hazrat Ali possessed divine qualities or performed miracles, in any sense of the word or of any description whatsoever; or claims that Hazrat Hussein, Hazrat Hasan and their descendents were infallible with divinely-guided knowledge of the unseen and the future, is not a Muslim for the purposes of the Constitution or law."

Source: The Constitution of Pakistan

The Twentieth Amendment

What the hell I didn't know about this amendment.

 

[KingMamba]

Interesting, could you give me the source plz?

From about the year 1911 Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Ahmad (second khalifa of the Qadiani Movement) started to put forward the doctrine that it is not sufficient for a person to declare belief in the Kalima Shahada in order to be a Muslim because Mirza Ghulam Ahmad had now appeared as a prophet and belief in him must be acknowledged as well.

According to Mirza Mahmud Ahmad, it is no longer sufficient for the existing Muslims to believe in the Holy Prophet Muhammad and all the prophets before him. Now they must also declare that they believe in the prophet Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as well. Otherwise they cannot remain Muslims but become just like those Jews and Christians who believed in the previous prophets but failed to accept the Holy Prophet Muhammad.

Mirza Mahmud Ahmad wrote a book A’inah-i Sadaqat, published in 1921, which was translated into English and first published in 1924 under the title The Truth about the Split. In this book, while acknowledging his beliefs, he writes:

“(3) the belief that all those so-called Muslims who have not entered into his [i.e. Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s] Bai’at formally, wherever they may be, are Kafirs and outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the name of the Promised Messiah. That these beliefs have my full concurrence, I readily admit.”

— The Truth about the Split, Rabwah, 1965, pp. 55–56. The 2007 edition of this book is available on the Qadiani website from the link Islamic Books | Online Islamic Library - Al Islam Online. See page 56 for this extract.

In this book, Mirza Mahmud Ahmad also gives a summary of his first article expressing these views which had earlier appeared in April 1911. He writes regarding this article:

“The article was elaborately entitled — ‘A Muslim is one who believes in all the messengers of God.’ The title itself is sufficient to show that the article was not meant to prove merely that ‘those who did not accept the Promised Messiah were deniers of the Promised Messiah’. Its object rather was to demonstrate that those who did not believe in the Promised Messiah were not Muslims.”

— pages 135–136 of the 1965 edition. In the 2007 online edition at Islamic Books | Online Islamic Library - Al Islam Online see page 144.

“Regarding the main subject of my article, I wrote that as we believed the Promised Messiah to be one of the prophets of God, we could not possibly regard his deniers as Muslims.” (pages 137–138 of 1965 edition; page 146 of online 2007 edition)

“…not only are those deemed to be Kafirs, who openly style the Promised Messiah as Kafir, and those who although they do not style him thus, decline still to accept his claim, but even those who, in their hearts, believe the Promised Messiah to be true, and do not even deny him with their tongues, but hesitate to enter into his Bai’at, have here been adjudged to be Kafirs.” (pages 139–140 of 1965 edition; page 148 of online 2007 edition)

“And lastly, it was argued from a verse of the Holy Quran that such people as had failed to recognise the Promised Messiah as a Rasul even if they called him a righteous person with their tongues, were yet veritable Kafirs.” (p. 140 of 1965 edition; page 148 of online 2007 edition)

According to these views, the only Muslims in the whole world at any time are those who have taken the bai‘at of the Qadiani leader of the time. In the last quotation above, the closing words given as “veritable Kafirs” are “pakkay kafir” in the original Urdu book A’inah-i Sadaqat. The word pakkay conveys the significance of ‘real, true, absolute and full-fledged’, meaning that all other Muslims are kafir in the fullest sense without the least doubt.

Qadianis disallow funeral prayers for other Muslims.

Since the Qadiani belief is that all Muslims outside their community are non-Muslims, just like a Christian or a Hindu is a non-Muslim, the Qadiani leader Mirza Mahmud Ahmad forbade his followers from saying the funeral prayers of other Muslims. This instruction is given by him quite clearly and forcefully in his book Anwar-i Khilafat, published October 1916. At the end of the section where he deals with this question, Mirza Mahmud Ahmad writes as follows:
“Now another question remains, that is, as non-Ahmadis are deniers of the Promised Messiah, this is why funeral prayers for them must not be offered, but if a young child of a non-Ahmadi dies, why should not his funeral prayers be offered? He did not call the Promised Messiah as kafir. I ask those who raise this question, that if this argument is correct, then why are not funeral prayers offered for the children of Hindus and Christians, and how many people say their funeral prayers? The fact is that, according to the Shariah, the religion of the child is the same as the religion of the parents. So a non-Ahmadi’s child is also a non-Ahmadi, and his funeral prayers must not be said. Then I say that as the child cannot be a sinner he does not need the funeral prayers; the child’s funeral is a prayer for his relatives, and they do not belong to us but are non-Ahmadis. This is why even the child’s funeral prayers must not be said. This leaves the question that if a man who believes Hazrat Mirza sahib to be true but has not yet taken the bai‘at, or is still thinking about joining Ahmadiyyat, and he dies in this condition, it is possible that God may not punish him. But the decisions of the Shariah are based on what is outwardly visible. So we must do the same thing in his case, and not offer funeral prayers for him.”

— Anwar-i Khilafat, page 93 of original edition; underlining is ours.
This book is available online at the Qadiani website in the collection Anwar-ul-‘Uloom, v. 3, no. 5 from the link Anwarul 'Ulum : Urdu Books by Hadhrat Mirza Bashir-ud-din Mahmud Ahmad Khalifatul Masih II - Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama'at Urdu Pages. See pages 150–151.

it is quite clear and plain from these instructions that the Qadiani belief is that all other Muslims, including the children of those Muslims and even including those Muslims who believe in the truth of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad but have not taken the pledge to join the Movement, are unbelievers (kafir) and non-Muslims just as people of other religions such as Hindus and Christians.

These books were published by their leaders look at the dates.
Qadiani were declared non muslim by all ulema in 1974.

You can buy the books and read for yourself.

Now since Qadianis reap what they sow they go to the media and cry about being declared non muslims unjustly but they did not realized that their own leaders started the stupidity when they declared the rest of the muslims worldwide as kaffir. There are probably no more than 10-15 million Qadiani in the world (they claim 200 million but that is ludicrous as there are only 3 millionish in Pakistan and 4 millionish in India which are their home countries) and yet they declared the remaining 1 billion or so Muslims as kaffir FIRST.