Which Submarines should the RSNF go after?

[Imran Khan]

First a bit of correction, contrary to what my friend @Imran Khan has been saying the French Submarine is actually called "Scorpene Class " and not Scorpion. Secondly , it has three models so far and the biggest model purchased by Brazil is almost same size as our Augusta ( Which is roughly 2000 Long tons of Water Displacement ). The smallest Scorpene model is 1575 long tons of water displacement.

It is however more advanced and has better Sensors than Augusta. It includes Diesel Propulsion+ Air Independent Propulsion giving it a 50+21 days at sea.

The price tag is a hefty $ 500,000,000 a boat. India just paid 3 Billion USD for Six Scorpene Class Submarines which is a bit more than a German Type 214.

The good thing with French is they are a bit more open to sharing Technology than the Germans, especially with their Propulsion systems.

sir we were typing in English and use same here on forum . for sure we are talking abut Scorpène-class submarine and not USS Scorpion (SSN-589)of 50s era

 

[Banana]

Japanese Soryu Class could be given a look. Ocean going subs.

 

[kalu_miah]

@Yzd Khalifa @Arabian Legend

I think the competition is between Scorpene vs Type 214.

1. Scorpene: new French design
TYpe 214: new German design
for SSI class sub (SSK with AIP)
2. Scorpene: used by Malaysia, Brazil and Chile
now being built for India
Shipyards: France, Spain and India
3. 214: used by Greece, South Korea and Portugal
going to be used by Turkey and Indonesia
shipyards: Greece, South Korea, Turkey (future) and Indonesia (future)
Greek shipyard is owned by UAE, in partnership with German Thyssen Krup and HDW

214 had a lot of problems initially, the first unit was not accepted by Greek Navy. Germans accused Greeks of unfairly trying to get a discount using minor problems as an excuse, which were fixed, apparently. This is available for sale at a discount. Later productions in Greece and in Korea are in operation. It seems that the problems have been corrected for all later units. Germans claim that the problems for the first unit, Papanikolis, have also been fixed.

First models of Scorpene in Malaysia also had teething problems, but they were fixed as well.

Considering the countries that are going for Scorpene platform and the countries that are going for 214 platform, I would recommend going with 214, as KSA has good relations with both Turkey and Indonesia. The Greek shipyard owned by UAE made at least 3 (2nd, 3rd and 4th units) and may make more in the future. South Korea who currently makes these, will produce most of these tech in house soon and they also have a more advanced sub program KSS-III:
Korean Attack Submarine program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So my recommendation, both are good, but if 214 is chosen:

- look at Papanikolis (made in Germany), as it is available for sale, and see if experts can verify that all problems have been fixed. The price I am sure will be discounted
- if the above is no good, then make the first one in South Korea or Greece shipyard owned by UAE
- later units should be made in Turkey, if their production is proven to be flawless or in Indonesia with Korean tech collaboration

Reference:

List of submarine operators - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Scorpène-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Indonesian Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Type 214 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Royal Malaysian Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Type 214
Germans may find it hard to sell their subs
S.Korea's first U214 class has been troubled for 20 months
Problems for Korea's First Type 214 Submarine?
Submarines: South Korea Strives To Be A Contender
Germans may find it hard to sell their subs - The Hindu
Germans may find it hard to sell their subs
ROKN’s Submarine Problems
Military Nuts -> Swedish submarines for S'pore
Submarine technology | Armada
KSS-II: South Korea Orders 6 More U-214 AIP Submarines
KSS-II: South Korea Orders 6 More U-214 AIP Submarines
U212 / U214 Submarines - Naval Technology
DSME Launches 4th Type 214 1,800-ton SSK Submarine for ROK Navy
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-navy/36119-type-212-vs-type-214-explained.html
Abu Dhabi MAR - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gotland-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

First a bit of correction, contrary to what my friend @Imran Khan has been saying the French Submarine is actually called "Scorpene Class " and not Scorpion. Secondly , it has three models so far and the biggest model purchased by Brazil is almost same size as our Augusta ( Which is roughly 2000 Long tons of Water Displacement ). The smallest Scorpene model is 1575 long tons of water displacement.

It is however more advanced and has better Sensors than Augusta. It includes Diesel Propulsion+ Air Independent Propulsion giving it a 50+21 days at sea.

The price tag is a hefty $ 500,000,000 a boat. India just paid 3 Billion USD for Six Scorpene Class Submarines which is a bit more than a German Type 214.

The good thing with French is they are a bit more open to sharing Technology than the Germans, especially with their Propulsion systems.

I hear a lot about this sub; it looks amazing and capable of carry out the duties the RSNF executes. Yes, I believe that the French are way flexible than the Germans, I wouldn't underestimate France's military machines, some people do, but I totally disagree especially when it comes to France's militray industry V.S. Germany's.

yes thry wil be built in Mumbai
You should go for french they give TOT more easily than the Germans

Thanks a bunch Sir, I'm positively sure that France will offer what we exactly demand.

Japanese Soryu Class could be given a look. Ocean going subs.

Japan won't sell a damn thing.

 

[Ceylal]

Thanks for coming by, your opinion is highly appreciated



Despite the fact that I happen to be a Riyadh(ian), I was taught how swim swiftly.

I don't think we should put the Israeli navy in par with far superior ones like India's which procured the Scorpion sub. [/img]
Appearances are often misleading friend. I won't count them out...The had their first sub before India.

The Scorpion sub entered service less than a decade ago, while T-209 entered service in the mid 70s. The Dolphin class sub is extensively modified from the export version of the T-209.

German know how in building sub is well known. If the Daulphin has shown technical problems due mostly to client's requirement, it is still one of the best ever made.

The US hasn't built a conventional submarine since the early 80s.

It does not mean they can retrofit some of them...like their M1A1, or F16...

Algeria is a rich country, she can procure whatever she wishes as long as she can afford the cheese ..

and the grapes and the bread and the wine

PLUS

PLUS

PLUS

P.S.

There is no such thing as Dolphin class sub; these subs were especially built for the Israeli navy.

It is called the Dolphin for Israel, You can call yours the EEL, it will have Saudis Specs

As @flamer84 stated earlier, the Germans are subsidizing every weapon Israel picks out of their industry, it is highly unlikely that the Germans will propose the Dolphin's to any country including theirs but again only to Israel.

Not true, Egypt , Algeria.just to name the two are interested.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

@kalu_miah

Hey bro

Thanks for posting fully-detailed response and analysis.

Each kind has its own pros and cons, however, it'd be nice to hear from people on this and that.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

@Ceylal

German know how in building sub is well known. If the Daulphin has shown technical problems due mostly to client's requirement, it is still one of the best ever made.

Of course Germany is well-known for its technological advancement, not only in subs but definitely beyond. Similarly, France is no different.

It does not mean they can retrofit some of them...like their M1A1, or F16...

Yep, with the influence the Saudis have they might do it for one reason or another.

It is called the Dolphin for Israel, You can call yours the EEL, it will have Saudis Specs

Can we call it Al-Qadisyah?

Not true, Egypt , Algeria.just to name the two are interested.

Egypt had bought 2 T-209 already, Algeria is richy rich they can purchase the F-35 or whatever

 

[kalu_miah]

@kalu_miah

Hey bro

Thanks for posting fully-detailed response and analysis.

Each kind has its own pros and cons, however, it'd be nice to hear from people on this and that.

You are welcome bro.

Yes they are both excellent subs, state of the art and both have their own strengths and weaknesses.

Essentially these are 2nd or even 3rd level subs, below SSBN (Balistic Missile capable + nuclear propulsion) and SSGN (Guided Missile capable + nuclear propulsion).

The SSN is just another attack sub that has nuclear propulsion. The advantage of nuclear propulsion is that you could stay underwater for long periods 90-100 days as opposed to 15-20 days for AIP, but it is not good for countries with no experience with nuclear reactors. Nuclear subs are much bigger to accommodate the propulsion reactor and its expensive as well. For smaller attack subs that do not have to stay under water for really long periods without snorkeling, Diesel + AIP can substitute for the nuclear propulsion:
AIP vs nuclear submarines « Defense Issues

Nuclear AIP option is discussed here for Australia's Collins class, this is supposed to be equipped with new tiny reactor, but they will not sell this to KSA:
Our View: Explore the Nuclear Option | Defense News | defensenews.com

Another great sub for KSA would be the Dolphin class from Type 214 designer:
Dolphin-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Israel Deploys Nuclear Weapons on German-Built Submarines - SPIEGEL ONLINE
This costs about 500 -700 million, as opposed to the 300-350 million for Type 214 and 450 million for Scorpene, but since it is mainly built for Israel Navy, I do not think it will be sold to a third country by Germany.

There is a new class of small nuclear reactor being researched:
TerraPower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Traveling wave reactor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bill Gates and some Indians are investing in it. This has great potential, I think even as AIP battery propulsion for subs, not to mention pollution free power for many developing country using mainly depleted Uranium, a waste from conventional nuclear reactors.

 

[anonymus]

If I may ask, how good the Augusta is? Can it carry nukes?

Well it cannot.

Agosta could only carry torpedoes and Exocet anti-ship missile and since this submarine is French, there is no chance of pakistan modifying it in secret to provide it with capability to fire cruise missiles.

+ Pakistan as of now does not have a missile capable of being launched from a submarine.

Even if one day they get that capability, it would be very unwise to put nukes on sub as India has been supplied with 12 P8i Poseidon which is a mortal threat for any submarine force.



Coming to the question at hand.

Since you are not buying from russians ( amur and s-1000 are good sub, though ) and US does not manufacture them,you are left with a choice of only French and German subs.


But even an important question would be; why do you need subs at all?

Job of an SSK is to protect littoral waters and go head to head against surface ship or other subs; it cannot interdict traffic on high seas as it lacks range.(theoretically it could do that but surface vessel for most of the time)

Now

Only countries against whom Saudi Arabia could use these Submarine are Iran, Pakistan and Part of India. Rest of the countries do not have a Navy to speak of.

Out of them Pakistan is pretty much guaranteed to not go on an offensive against you and even if they do, Pakistan Navy is in a pathetic shape. It is a product of step motherly treatment that PN has got at expense of PA and PAF. They do not have even have a Destroyer in their navy.

India has too big a coastline to cover and even at it maximum range, an SSK would not be able to cover more than 20% of Indian coastline and that too in Northern Arabian sea.

+ Indian navy is too big and too strong for Saudi's.

That leaves you with Iran.

The problem with fielding proper subs against Iran is that you will not be able to utilize them properly due to bottom topography of Persian gulf.

so why not buy submarine hunters like Poseidon and Orion and frigates.

The advantage of having surface assets like frigates is that once you are done with Iranian Navy, you could use them to enforce blockades and bombing Iran's coastline which a submarine would be incapable of doing.

Flexibility is the reason that most of Navies prefer surface vessels over submerged one's.

 

[Pakistanisage]

Well it cannot.

Agosta could only carry torpedoes and Exocet anti-ship missile and since this submarine is French, there is no chance of pakistan modifying it in secret to provide it with capability to fire cruise missiles.

+ Pakistan as of now does not have a missile capable of being launched from a submarine.

Even if one day they get that capability, it would be very unwise to put nukes on sub as India has been supplied with 12 P8i Poseidon which is a mortal threat for any submarine force.



Coming to the question at hand.

Since you are not buying from russians ( amur and s-1000 are good sub, though ) and US does not manufacture them,you are left with a choice of only French and German subs.


But even an important question would be; why do you need subs at all?

Job of an SSK is to protect littoral waters and go head to head against surface ship or other subs; it cannot interdict traffic on high seas as it lacks range.(theoretically it could do that but surface vessel for most of the time)

Now

Only countries against whom Saudi Arabia could use these Submarine are Iran, Pakistan and Part of India. Rest of the countries do not have a Navy to speak of.

Out of them Pakistan is pretty much guaranteed to not go on an offensive against you and even if they do, Pakistan Navy is in a pathetic shape. It is a product of step motherly treatment that PN has got at expense of PA and PAF. They do not have even have a Destroyer in their navy.

India has too big a coastline to cover and even at it maximum range, an SSK would not be able to cover more than 20% of Indian coastline and that too in Northern Arabian sea.

+ Indian navy is too big and too strong for Saudi's.

That leaves you with Iran.

The problem with fielding proper subs against Iran is that you will not be able to utilize them properly due to bottom topography of Persian gulf.

so why not buy submarine hunters like Poseidon and Orion and frigates.

The advantage of having surface assets like frigates is that once you are done with Iranian Navy, you could use them to enforce blockades and bombing Iran's coastline which a submarine would be incapable of doing.

Flexibility is the reason that most of Navies prefer surface vessels over submerged one's.

I don't know what kind of stuff you are smoking that is making you wonky but you should lay off that stuff.

Why the heck would RSNF ever feel the need to fight PN, one of its closest Ally ?

 

[anonymus]

I don't know what kind of stuff you are smoking that is making you wonky but you should lay off that stuff.

Why the heck would RSNF ever feel the need to fight PN, one of its closest Ally ?

Uncle,


Don't you know that in a balanced analysis, even hypothetical threats are considered and were you blind to not read next line.

Out of them Pakistan is pretty much guaranteed to not go on an offensive against you

 

[kalu_miah]

@Yzd Khalifa @Arabian Legend

In earlier post I recommended type 214, but I overlooked the most important factor, the close relationship between Pakistan Navy and RSNF. Since Pakistan Navy has 3 Agosta 90B and built 2 of them, both Pakistan shipyard and sailors should be quite familiar with French submarine technology and may even be able to build the Scorpene in their shipyard. So considering these factors, it would make much more sense to go with Scorpene rather than type 214 and have them built preferably in Pakistan shipyard.

@Pakistanisage @Imran Khan

Can Karachi Shipyard make the Scorpene, if RSNF decided to go with this? The yard already built two Agosta 90B and is going to build 2 of the 6 Chinese Yuan class Type-041 subs.
Karachi Shipyard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

Well-said

Very deep analysis like always. So you would rather recommend that the Saudi should go after submarine killers and frigates due to the topography of the Gulf?

What about the Red Sea?

Uncle,


Don't you know that in a balanced analysis, even hypothetical threats are considered and were you blind to not read next line.

I wouldn't see India's navy as a threat to KSA either.

I guess the Saudis will eventually go after the French as Pakistan Navy happens to be so closed to them. Anther thing you mentioned is that the PN happens to have a great experience.

@Yzd Khalifa @Arabian Legend

In earlier post I recommended type 214, but I overlooked the most important factor, the close relationship between Pakistan Navy and RSNF. Since Pakistan Navy has 3 Agosta 90B and built 2 of them, both Pakistan shipyard and sailors should be quite familiar with French submarine technology and may even be able to build the Scorpene in their shipyard. So considering these factors, it would make much more sense to go with Scorpene rather than type 214 and have them built preferably in Pakistan shipyard.

@Pakistanisage @Imran Khan

Can Karachi Shipyard make the Scorpene, if RSNF decided to go with this? The yard already built two Agosta 90B and is going to build 2 of the 6 Chinese Yuan class Type-041 subs.
Karachi Shipyard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[al-Hasani]

The average depth of the Arabian Gulf is 50 m (160 ft) and the maximum depth is 90 m (300 ft). In other words it is very shallow.

The Red Sea on the other hand has a average depth of 490 m (1,610 ft) and a maximum depth of 2.211 m (7,254 ft)

 

[anonymus]

Well-said

Very deep analysis like always. So you would rather recommend that the Saudi should go after submarine killers and frigates due to the topography of the Gulf?

What about the Red Sea?






I wouldn't see India's navy as a threat to KSA either.

Red sea is too narrow and shallow (comparatively) and your submarine would be easily detected.


The only country that could ever fight a war with you unless you have declared war over them is Iran.Management of Mecca and medina and assorted $hit that would come someone's way means that occupying Saudi is too much of a headache for any country.


Only Iran and if you want to count, Iraq has a passable justification for doing so; namely " liberating holy cities from American stooges".