Where is Islam in Islamic Republic of Pakistan?

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Mohammad bhai , i agree there r some ppl who just wanna create doubts while they don't have any knowledgy of islam or islamic system let's just ignore them ( i wonder can we ignore admins hope not get banned lol)

TARIQ

You can't ignore admins or moderators.

And why would you want to ignore me? Have you lost the arguments so badly that this is all you have left? To ignore them?

Usually when people lose arguments, the rational thing to do is to reexamine your position and try and look at if from the other perspective to see if it makes sense.

You know my arguments make sense, you know that 'equal rights for all' and 'no compulsion in religion' means your positions on Ahmadis and other non-Muslim minorities are wrong, but the hatred and prejudice, against non-Muslims, inculcated in you throughout your life is so strong that you cannot bring yourself to accept the correct, moral and Islamic position on these issues.

Hatred and prejudice is winning over reason and logic.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Guys I think you are wasting time with him... Let him be... Only discuss with people who are willing to listen and understand... You need to have some calibre in the other person... Someone who creates a fuss over the issue that a "non muslim" cannot become the leader of an "Islamic" state and label others as hypocrites for such a reason does not deserve our energy... You say Salam to such people and look for another person...

We have a good community of believers here... Keep up the good work and avoid silly confrontation...

This is right, and fully agreed.

Let us all not be dragged into right and left.

The more we give heed, the more derailed this thread will be.

Lets all stay focused on our target.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

We have all rights to preserve our religion from being infested by different sects who are nothing but attention seekers.

Sure, through preaching, proselytizing and discussions - not through force and open discrimination through laws.

Remember what Islam commands:

1. Equality for ALL.

2. No compulsion in religion

3. Allah is the only and final judge of an individual's faith.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Uncle/bahi... you are doing a great job.. dont give up... lets just answer them with their own tone.... if we ignore then they may believe they have won the debate. As true muslims its our duty to educate about islam.

No, do not answer any point problems (Ahmedi)

it will drag you down in a hole, and distract

eventually one of us will loose it, and react.

The best treatment is to just let them be.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Muhammad Bin Qasim:


One of my parents is Sunni and the other Shia, and I'll be damned if I let people like you argue that the majority Sunni sect has the right to reduce half my family to second class citizens (like has been done with the Ahmadis, Christians and Hindus in our country).

I have similar case in my family part Beralvis and Shias.. as far as the current definition of a Muslim goes (by Lal Mosque, Sipah Sahabah) both are condemned to death by TTP. so there is no escape for me lol.

I hope this debate doesnt Descend into secterianism.. but I will like to mention Quaid e Azam.. he was a shia but never made a big deal out of it and if I am not mistaken he actually requested his prayers to be led by a Sunni. I will also like to mention Pir Jamat Ali Shah (RA) a famous Beralvi saint who very actively supported Jinnah and Pakistan and requested the Sunnis to look beyond Jinnah's sect.


people will be amazed if they look up the number of "Islamic" parties that stood against Muslim league in the elections. its a whole laundry list of parties that suggests that there was British hand in diluting Muslim league's vote (referring to the time when Muslims in India won the right of exclusive elections "judagana intikhab".)

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

You can't ignore admins or moderators.

And why would you want to ignore me? Have you lost the arguments so badly that this is all you have left? To ignore them?

Usually when people lose arguments, the rational thing to do is to reexamine your position and try and look at if from the other perspective to see if it makes sense.

You know my arguments make sense, you know that 'equal rights for all' and 'no compulsion in religion' means your positions on Ahmadis and other non-Muslim minorities are wrong, but the hatred and prejudice, against non-Muslims, inculcated in you throughout your life is so strong that you cannot bring yourself to accept the correct, moral and Islamic position on these issues.

Hatred and prejudice is winning over reason and logic.

assalam alaikum

AM this is not responce to u and usually i don't reply to personnel attacks but coz u and the other name that u mentioned give wrong examples to create confusion but now i will show our brothers AM became Alim alghaib (Allah) to know what i think and do ( see the bolded part)

TARIQ

 

[Durrak]

The only solution to this problem is to educate the masses.

So according to you education is the solution of every problem but educated people also do crimes because they don't have fear of ALLAH.
I don't see democracy as a problem within this example.

Islam also allows muslims to choose a leader for themselves. Now if some part of the population is illiterate, would those people be banned from voting?
.

Islam allows muslims to choose a leader for themselves but according to Islamic rules and regulations

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

assalam alaikum

AM this is not responce to u and usually i don't reply to personnel attacks but coz u and the other name that u mentioned give wrong examples to create confusion but now i will show our brothers AM became Alim alghaib (Allah) to know what i think and do ( see the bolded part)

TARIQ

TBZ,

I am willing to retract my comments and apologize, provided you look at the following

Remember what Islam commands:

1. Equality for ALL.

2. No compulsion in religion

3. Allah is the only and final judge of an individual's faith.

And accept the fact that imposing any system without the consent of all political, religious and ethnic groups in Pakistan violates one or more of the above, and that the laws against Ahmadis and other non-Muslim minorities violate one or more of the above.

Don't over complicate things - the above three commands in Islam are simple, and if enforced properly and without prejudice, can lead to a prosperous and equitable 'Islamic' society and nation.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

If we were so viloent shia would have been vanished since we r in over whiming majority and ruled a vast land uncontested. The viloence in iraq and elsewhere is for different reasons not only sects.

We take our guidance from quran and sunnah not only from quran, do u know quran also come to us via sunna?

TARIQ

dear borther.. please dont go down that route.
this will be pointless.. he never said that

remember Kharjites were originally siding with Hazrat Ali but then they were the ones who assassinated him and other many Sahabh and unnamed Muslims.. them being firstly with Ali doesnt make Shias wrong because all recited the kalima tought by Prophet Muhammad PBUH would it mean god forbid there was problem with Holy Prophet's teaching? (Astaghfirullah)


the reason why Pakistan is not like Afhganistan where there was a wholesale shia culling by taliban, is that Pakistan is a majority moderate Sunni place of Saints and sufis where the love of the Ahle Baith and their beloved followers and Sahabs is celebrated for centuries.... this is why from Ajmair Sherif to Multan the resting places of the Saints welcome every sect even nonMuslims.

this is why the fanatics are rejected in Pakistan

I wish that the love of the Holy Prophet PBUH removes all secterian hatred from the hearts and the blood from the eyes of everyone who claims to be the follower and reciter of Muhammad's word which is the Word from Allah

Amen

 

[pk8]

Hi Growler
I know yu dont want any indian to participate in ths thread but i cant refrai myself. I wont suggest anything neither will comment on Islam but will ask you some question to understand your insight
1- Who will run the nation and who will decide the ruler?
2- if the ruler mis interpretate the islam who will rectify that?
3- doesn't it will bring dictatorship if some mullah will be assumed to be the voice of islam and he mis use it in its own interest?
4- who will decide who is wrong? E.g. taliban believes in their version of islam and you may believe in yours.
democracy allows you to difrentiate better from goods.
5-Isn't democratical choosen Islamic rule possible?

P.S This is my last post in the thread to respect your appeal but will surely read the replies.

Dear
IND_PAK,
u will not get ur answer from here or some one else,
because every one with his mind setup,social background...,
understand the religion as they think it is the right Ver. of the religious,
or is the right Islam the other is not. i.e
after the death of the last Messenger (Peace upon him),
If we observe the Islamic history with out any privece mind set we will find ur
question's asked at that time, it took over six month's, so that the Islamic Gov first political crises set down,
every khalif ruled by a different idologie's,
every khalif came to power by different way,
till the 5th khalif (Al hassan ibn Ali),
After that the Islamic Gov was changed to Arab Jahilly Kingdom's,
same like u see in the Persian Gulf arab state's,
the Amier , sheik's or the king can do any thing and the people have to obey,
and the king's mullah's justify it as it the order of God,
now u can replace the king and put mullah... in that place u will get Taliban rule...,
every thing is justified for the ruler, because what he thing's is right should be forced over others, if u disagree ur head should be cut because u ar against God, God wish........
this not only in Islam only,
u can find this in Europe when was rolled by the church,
even find it these day's, by people like g.bush ,when he say "he was selected by god to fight a holly war " when invading Iraq .

so i thing all the toll's ar ready for a governor, P.M, president,king, .....
to take power & one of the best tool's is religion.
it is the best way to foul people with,
as majority of people do not know any thing about the religion,
so any one can come and say,people i am religious man and want to impose religious rule so come and fight for that.
it is so simple,
if some one asked a question that he did not liked or can not answer , the better way is that he should be eliminated as the enemy of God.

and last point Islam give's every human being the right to live,respect his personality & property.
No one can force (the other,Muslim or non Muslim) in the name of Islam to change his thinking or religion just because i or the government do not like that.
The right to question is also a human right given by the creator to us ,so if we believe in some thing we believe it my our mind first than heart.

This is my opinion and must not be considered the view of Islam.

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

dear borther.. please dont go down that route.
this will be pointless.. he never said that

remember Kharjites were originally siding with Hazrat Ali but then they were the ones who assassinated him and other many Sahabh and unnamed Muslims.. them being firstly with Ali doesnt make Shias wrong because all recited the kalima tought by Prophet Muhammad PBUH would it mean god forbid there was problem with Holy Prophet's teaching? (Astaghfirullah)


the reason why Pakistan is not like Afhganistan where there was a wholesale shia culling by taliban, is that Pakistan is a majority moderate Sunni place of Saints and sufis where the love of the Ahle Baith and their beloved followers and Sahabs is celebrated for centuries.... this is why from Ajmair Sherif to Multan the resting places of the Saints welcome every sect even nonMuslims.

this is why the fanatics are rejected in Pakistan

I wish that the love of the Holy Prophet PBUH removes all secterian hatred from the hearts and the blood from the eyes of everyone who claims to be the follower and reciter of Muhammad's word which is the Word from Allah

Amen

assalam alaikum

Hor Sir

My response was this to this post

Iraq was peaceful for 25 years because of a dictator, who committed many atrocities against the Shia and Kurds, and any Sunnis who challenged him.

That is hardly an example of harmonious existence.

Saddam Ruled with the ideology of ba'ath and not by islam or any sect of islam. Un vaild example just to creat a doubt for the persons who don't know the exact situation

And He replied to my post that u mentioned in this post and u appreicated him

I did not say that all Sunni were violent - I am merely pointing out what Saddam did.

Again bringing saddam in what context did he rule by the sunni sect iraq?

When a person doesnot come up with a good answer try to mix the expamles to create doubts coz when u mention saddam ( the dracula hungary for blood play with emotions and the audence will accept everything )

Giving example of afghanistan or taliban is not right one coz we all know in civil wars many bad things happens. Yes by the grace of Almighty it will not happen in pakistan and hope not happen anywhere.

regarding ur daua i say ameeeeeeeen ameeeeeen ameeeeeeeeeeen

AM u don't need to apologize neither i demanded it and i will never demand we r just exchanging our thought nothing else.

TARIQ

 

[Irfan Baloch]

assalam alaikum



regarding ur daua i say ameeeeeeeen ameeeeeen ameeeeeeeeeeen

AM u don't need to apologize neither i demanded it and i will never demand we r just exchanging our thought nothing else.

TARIQ

you are a good man. and so is AgNoStIc MuSliM..
you both have your points and the best part is that you two and others are all respectful to each other.. that is the very basis of what we want to show to the world.
Allah's Blessing to all of us

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

I have similar case in my family part Beralvis and Shias.. as far as the current definition of a Muslim goes (by Lal Mosque, Sipah Sahabah) both are condemned to death by TTP. so there is no escape for me lol.

I hope this debate doesnt Descend into secterianism.. but I will like to mention Quaid e Azam.. he was a shia but never made a big deal out of it and if I am not mistaken he actually requested his prayers to be led by a Sunni. I will also like to mention Pir Jamat Ali Shah (RA) a famous Beralvi saint who very actively supported Jinnah and Pakistan and requested the Sunnis to look beyond Jinnah's sect.


people will be amazed if they look up the number of "Islamic" parties that stood against Muslim league in the elections. its a whole laundry list of parties that suggests that there was British hand in diluting Muslim league's vote (referring to the time when Muslims in India won the right of exclusive elections "judagana intikhab".)

Irfan bhai... There is nothing wrong with either Beralvis or Shias... this issue is well understood by educated Muslims... True we have disagreements but nothing of the sort that some people like to exaggerate... Infact sectarian issues are being used by some clever enemies to confuse Muslims... A Caliph has nothing to do with Sects... He is the leader of all Muslims... However a non Muslim is a non Muslim and cannot become the leader of an Islamic state... Its as simple as that...

There are different reasons why Islamic parties opposed Pakistan... If we take just a country for Muslims argument as proposed by the Secularists then most of the Muslims in India (which are btw greater in number than Muslims living in Pakistan) are doing fine in India today... They can even boast a Muslim as President (Abdul Kalam)... Seriously if it was a case for land for the sake of Muslims only (living under all sorts of kufr laws) then why shed the blood of million trying to make Pakistan... we could have lived side by side the Hindus and Sikhs like Muslims live there even today...

You talk about the past, I have even heard modern scholars like Zakir Naik who have huge following in Pakistan etc (even though I have disagreements with some of the things they say) that the experiment for Pakistan was wrong and we should have focussed on living together like we have done so for thousands of years...

---------- Post added at 07:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 PM ----------

you are a good man. and so is AgNoStIc MuSliM..
you both have your points and the best part is that you two and others are all respectful to each other.. that is the very basis of what we want to show to the world.
Allah's Blessing to all of us

Heyyyyy what about me... I m a good man too... urrrgghhhh

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

So according to you education is the solution of every problem but educated people also do crimes because they don't have fear of ALLAH.
I don't see democracy as a problem within this example.

Islam allows muslims to choose a leader for themselves but according to Islamic rules and regulations

The issue described in a nutshell... according to Islamic rules... Not some west inspired equality mantra...

 

[laiqs@mi]

AoA
in this reply i will try to share my view point and sorry in advance if i hurt someones feelings.

1. AM said someone a hypocrite but i being a regular follower of the thread am observing that our moderators few of them are getting involed in same thing. a thread created yeasterday showed they banned very senior members and not letting them to share their point of view. because the members were stick to their point. (what is hypocracy now)
and AM is repeating same thing in 4-5 of his posts so i am trying to reply.
1. Equality for ALL.

Equality to all not means that an educated man and an un-educated man are eligibal for the same post in an office. ( suppose grade 17)
If I am not a phd and i wish people call me doctor i shall be making a fool of myself. neighther will i get a doctors job. Why ??? because i am not a doctor(PHD). and Quraan and sunnah gives us the knoledge to judge some one through his acts.

2. No compulsion in religion

there was no compulsion of religion at the time of Mohammad (PBUH) if we follow the same path QURAAN and sunnah there will be no compulsion.

3. Allah is the only and final judge of an individual's faith
ALLAH Pak will judge at the day of judgment not before that.
but if you leave every one to that day then you are not following Islam and Mohammad (PBUH) path becaus Dawah is must in islam. You must preach islam to non-belivers. and after you convayed your msg to him let him decide what he want. Islam is not by force. BUT if I am not preaching islam and what I know then i should be accountable to ALLAH.