Where is Islam in Islamic Republic of Pakistan?

[LeGenD]

The issue is in man made legislation based on reps and the majority in Democracy... This is the crux of the problem...

So in a Democracy people can vote on making things permissible or not permissible...

By using this system our regimes across the Muslim world have implemented all sorts of kufr laws upon us...

Brother,

The main problem with current Islamic regimes is that they are implementing western ideologies in all aspects.

Democracy actually gives mandate to people to decide what is best for them. If people want Islamic laws to be implemented, they can do so. Democracy does not stops people from practicing their beliefs. It does not turns a faithful to unfaithful. This is what you need to understand.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Brother,

The main problem with current Islamic regimes is that they are implementing western ideologies in all aspects.

Democracy actually gives mandate to people to decide what is best for them. If people want Islamic laws to be implemented, they can do so. Democracy does not stops people from practicing their beliefs. It does not turns a faithful to unfaithful. This is what you need to understand.

LeGenD...

The reason why western ideology has crept in all aspects of so called "Islamic" regimes is Democracy... I understand what you are saying about the majority wanting Islamic laws but the very act of passing a law thru Parliament by voting on it negates Islam... Halal and Haram are well defined in Islam... An example should clarify the issue...

Riba is forbidden in Islam... There is absolutely no need now for us Muslims to sit in Parliament and vote whether Riba should be allowed or not allowed... This right that Democracy gives to man to legislate without any confines or limitation of Shariah is what is wrong with Democracy... It is a recipe for the rich and powerful to get their way and manipulate and oppress the weak...

The majority actually does nt matter much... Although the impression Democracy gives is that it is the will of the people, in reality it is the Capitalists who are in power... So if the Capitalists want a certain law to be passed because they see benefit in it... they will obviously use their influence, money and power and get what they want because there is room for such manipulation... This is the reason why we have seen certain laws in the west being abolished, changed, changed back, different from place to place... In Islam there are absolutes on which people have no difference of opinion... Democracy does not recognize absolutes in legislation.... This is the key difference...

Another example is that of military industrial complex lobbying the politicians in America... Because war generates profits for them, they favor the party that is more aggressive in its foreign policy... Some decades ago the Capitalists used to pick a favorite and throw all their weight behind one candidate... but now they have become clever and they donate money to election campaigns for both Republicans and Democrats... whoever wins, they ll get their way...

According to CorpWatch.org in 2005 Lockheed Martin made $19.4bn in military contracts while Northrop Grumman received $13.5bn from the government... Both of these firms contribute heavily to political campaigns for both Republicans and Democrats.

I hope I m building a good picture for you there... but lets take the issue of the majority also... InshaAllah once we have Islamic system on our land... India gets stupid ideas and they attacks our state... The Islamic state rises to the challenge and annihilates the Indian forces in Jihad... our armies march into Delhi and we declare victory with the help of Allah... Tell me then... are we going to change our laws because the majority under the dominion of the Islamic forces is Hindu now? No my friend... Riba stays haram even though Hindus are well known for their dealings in Riba... and the system that the Indians had before the war shall be abolished and changed with the Islamic economic system... A point to note here is that Riba is not part of their religion... The only exception for the Hindu population would be that if they want to settle a court case according to their own religious law, they shall be allowed to do it... Even in that certain things will be completely forbidden... There shall be no room for Sati or harassment of Shoodra by Barahman caste etc...

Hope that explains it... Masalam

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Islam also allows muslims to choose a leader for themselves. Now if some part of the population is illiterate, would those people be banned from voting?

Read this carefully:

If Democracy and Islamic laws are almost the same then whats your problem with having a Islamic ruling system in pakistan? Of course not rulled by jahil mullahs.

Btw Prophet Mohammed SAW did not say anything about illiterates but infact leadership is not limited to only elite class (which is happening in Democratic Political parties in Pakistan).

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Brother,

The main problem with current Islamic regimes is that they are implementing western ideologies in all aspects.

Democracy actually gives mandate to people to decide what is best for them. If people want Islamic laws to be implemented, they can do so. Democracy does not stops people from practicing their beliefs. It does not turns a faithful to unfaithful. This is what you need to understand.

It is "OBLIGATORY" for every muslim state to be ruled by Islamic system. Their is no IFs and Buts.

 

[Martian]

If Democracy and Islamic laws are almost the same then whats your problem with having a Islamic ruling system in pakistan?

What are components of "Islamic ruling system" and what is mechanism of "accountability" in such system? I will appreciate a very specific answer. Thanks.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

What are components of "Islamic ruling system" and what is mechanism of "accountability" in such system? I will appreciate a very specific answer. Thanks.

The answer has been provided already on previous pages.

http://www.hizb-pakistan.org/home/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/the_ruling_system_of_islam.pdf

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I think sir you did not watch the video i posted.
Please kindly watch it.
Pakistan is not Mohammed Ali Jinnah's personal property. Neither he was a messenger of Allah whom we have to fallow at all cost. Pakistanis being "Muslims" should fallow the greatest man in history of man kind (Prophet Mohammed PBUH) orders.
Islamic laws should not be confused with jahil mullahs.

Thanks for posting this video.. Especially the Joke about the man immigrating from US to Taliban's Afghanistan pretty much sums up where the democracy is heading.

The speaker also touched upon the difference of Kafir and sinner.. Something we Pakistanis really need to understand and differentiate.. Something that meant a governor of a province can be slain by his own bodyguard followed up by the warning by "moderate" Muslim leaders not ever to express sympathy or sorrow for the incident.. Perhaps a different discussion altogether but something really needed to be understood while trying to make religion and democracy compatible

I won’t go any further but say this.. There are some fundamental beliefs in Islam where there is simply no room for discussion, they have to be taken as they are. Period.
Secondly there are things we call Moamlaat, i.e. our social aspect, here is where Islam is flexible but asks Muslims to use sources of Sheria for their daily lives.. Here there is room for argument and interpretation but limitations are that the basic beliefs are not contradicted.

Muslims fo India were identified as a seperate nation and it was argued that their rights wont be protected under united India, this was the basis for the 2 nation theory and Pakistan.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Muslims fo India were identified as a seperate nation and it was argued that their rights wont be protected under united India, this was the basis for the 2 nation theory and Pakistan.

Pakistan separated because of Islam so it could be practiced in their land NOT DEMOCRACY. Islam is not only about praying to allah when you need something in life, its about way of life and ruling system is one of them.
Today pakistan's meaning looks like Democracy. And allah does not like Hippocrates.

Especially the Joke about the man immigrating from US to Taliban's Afghanistan pretty much sums up where the democracy is heading.

Actually the afghanistan example was a bad one since homosexuality is a common thing in their society.
Islam In Pakistan and Afghanistan has merged with culture resulting in their own version of Islam. If a man with pants shirt walk in a mosque in Pakistan people will automatically think that he is a lesser muslim then us... and funny thing according to many of them if you dont wear shalwar kameez u aint a muslim.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Muhammad Bin Qasim:

I read your posts on the election of a Caliph, and it is very similar to the Presidential System in the US. The candidates engage in a series of debates, and then the people vote for them and the individual with the highest votes wins and appoints a cabinet that is approved by the legislature (providing checks and balances on the kinds of people included in the cabinet).

In essence what you are suggesting is a US style Presidential system of government with the President being called 'Caliph'. Shifting to a Presidential style system is an idea that has been discussed for a long time in Pakistan, and I am personally in favor of it. It would provide an opportunity for the Pakistani Middle Class to select their leader outside of the established political parties - people like Imran Khan for example would have a good chance, though they would likely continue to have little support in the legislature, at least in the beginning.

I am in favor of a limited term however (five years max) for the President/Caliph, after which new elections must be held. But the details can be worked out once people are convinced we must shift to such a system. However, the constitution must stay the same aside from changing the system of government, until there is wide consensus amongst all ethnic, political and sectarian groups over a new constitution.

As far as implementing 'Islamic laws' is concerned, Pakistan is not the 'property of the Sunnis' or any other sect or faith, and therefore any new constitution must only be brought about through consensus amongst all groups, and not just because the majority sect wants it.

One of my parents is Sunni and the other Shia, and I'll be damned if I let people like you argue that the majority Sunni sect has the right to reduce half my family to second class citizens (like has been done with the Ahmadis, Christians and Hindus in our country).

Again, Pakistan is 'not the personal property of Sunnis', and any attempt to enforce a one sided system will only result in the country going down the path of Afghanistan and Iraq.

 

[Patriot]

Growler you attending hiz-ul-tahir lectures by any chance?

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Thanks for posting this video.. Especially the Joke about the man immigrating from US to Taliban's Afghanistan pretty much sums up where the democracy is heading.

The speaker also touched upon the difference of Kafir and sinner.. Something we Pakistanis really need to understand and differentiate.. Something that meant a governor of a province can be slain by his own bodyguard followed up by the warning by "moderate" Muslim leaders not ever to express sympathy or sorrow for the incident.. Perhaps a different discussion altogether but something really needed to be understood while trying to make religion and democracy compatible

I won’t go any further but say this.. There are some fundamental beliefs in Islam where there is simply no room for discussion, they have to be taken as they are. Period.
Secondly there are things we call Moamlaat, i.e. our social aspect, here is where Islam is flexible but asks Muslims to use sources of Sheria for their daily lives.. Here there is room for argument and interpretation but limitations are that the basic beliefs are not contradicted.

Muslims fo India were identified as a seperate nation and it was argued that their rights wont be protected under united India, this was the basis for the 2 nation theory and Pakistan.

The point about sinner and kufr is very vaiid... I did a jummah khutbah on it once (dont ask details... lol)

Kafir is someone who rejects the core concepts of Islam like belief in One God, Prophets, Angels, Revelation thru books like Quran, Torah, Injeel and Judgement Day...

Fasiq is someone who accepts the core concepts however he sins openly like drinking alcohol in public, dealing in riba contracts...

Aasi is someone who sins but hides it and does not proudly tell others of his/her bad deeds... I think this is the category where we all stand as Muslims... may Allah forgive our sins...

 

[Myth_buster_1]

As far as implementing 'Islamic laws' is concerned, Pakistan is not the 'property of the Sunnis' or any other sect or faith, and therefore any new constitution must only be brought about through consensus amongst all groups, and not just because the majority sect wants it.

One of my parents is Sunni and the other Shia, and I'll be damned if I let people like you argue that the majority Sunni sect has the right to reduce half my family to second class citizens (like has been done with the Ahmadis, Christians and Hindus in our country).

Again, Pakistan is 'not the personal property of Sunnis', and any attempt to enforce a one sided system will only result in the country going down the path of Afghanistan and Iraq.

AM

their is no such thing as "second class citizen" in Islam. Minorities have as much rights as the majority.
Pakistan exists because of Islam, without muslims movement for a separate land their would be NO Pakistan. As Muslims its our duty to implement the laws that were permitted by allah and help fellow Muslims to straight path according to Quran Hadis sunnah and separate culture from Islam.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Growler you attending hiz-ul-tahir lectures by any chance?

Tell me is he representing any sort of sects? if no then i will start listening to him.

In fact to be honest with you.. my knowlege of islam is poor. I just started reading quran with translation and watch converts videos on youtube and few more other things. thats it...
I dont even know how i wrote all that in this thread.

allah can guide anyone to straight path whom hi wills. thats all i can say.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM

their is no such thing as "second class citizen" in Islam. Minorities have as much rights as the majority.
Pakistan exists because of Islam, without muslims movement for a separate land their would be NO Pakistan. As Muslims its our duty to implement the laws that were permitted by allah and help fellow Muslims to straight path according to Quran Hadis sunnah and separate culture from Islam.

In Mohammed Bin Qasim's response to Tech-Lahore earlier (which you thanked) he said:

I have to go sleep...

If Tech is Shia then what he fails to realize that Pakistan is majority Sunni and to seek a system based in the Sunni texts is perfectly legitimate... We shall obviously accomodate all Muslims regardless if they are Jafari or Sunni...

That comment is clear in that in seeking to impose 'Islamic Law' you are looking at the Sunni interpretation alone. 'Accommodating all Muslims' means that the rest will be reduced to second class citizen status, whose opinions will not be taken into consideration in implementing such a system.

And if minorities have the same rights as the majority in an Islamic system, then you will have to retract your position on 'seeking a system based on Sunni texts', and agree that any new constitution or system should only be implemented with the consensus of all sects, faiths, ethnicities and political parties in Pakistan - otherwise they do not have the same rights.

In addition, I will assume based on your comment on 'minorities have the same rights as majority in an Islamic System' that the Ahmadis will have the draconian restrictions placed upon them (cannot call themselves what they wish, cannot call their places of worship what they wish) removed, and the 'minorities' will be eligible to run for any public office, including President/Caliph.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

AoA Agnos...

I read your posts on the election of a Caliph, and it is very similar to the Presidential System in the US. The candidates engage in a series of debates, and then the people vote for them and the individual with the highest votes wins and appoints a cabinet that is approved by the legislature (providing checks and balances on the kinds of people included in the cabinet).

Yes the other poster pointed this out the last time as well.. The thing is there are going to be many similarities with different systems however there are differences also... What we should understand is that these similarities are despite their different origins... America has democracy and people have sat down and laid out this system... the founding fathers laying out a constitution etc... whereas for us the system emerges from a different source which is the Quran and Sunnah and consensus of the Sahabah... The Prophet himself at one point stated that he would like to write down the names of a few Sahabah so that Muslims can select their leader from amongst them after he passes away... So this is a key difference between the two systems even though the outcome seems very similar...

Similarly in Islam the Caliph is the commander in chief of the Armed forces and so is the case in the US where the President is the commander...

The cabinet again is the executive branch of the government and in Islam also we have Assistants who used to be called Wazir (it is different from a democratic system however because wazir or ministers are all in all and the heads of their departments in democracy whereas the Islamic system Caliph oversees all assistants)... There are then types of Assistants... Delegated Assistants are like clones of the Caliph i.e have a lot of power and able to work on issues in their own capacity however they still have to report to the Caliph of what they have done and achieved and unless the Caliph stops them from doing something specific, they can carry out their tasks... This again is from the Sunnah because the two delegated assistants of the Prophet saw were Abu Bakr and Umar RA...

There is a type of assistant who is the executive assistant who is assigned a singular task and he goes and fulfills that particular task only... there are lots of details such as these...

In essence what you are suggesting is a US style Presidential system of government with the President being called 'Caliph'. Shifting to a Presidential style system is an idea that has been discussed for a long time in Pakistan, and I am personally in favor of it. It would provide an opportunity for the Pakistani Middle Class to select their leader outside of the established political parties - people like Imran Khan for example would have a good chance, though they would likely continue to have little support in the legislature, at least in the beginning.

Again we should remember that despite all the similarities, it is our own system from Islamic sources and it may be different in many issues as well from the American system or any other system... I can understand the need to compare with different models however because this way humans learn best...

I am in favor of a limited term however (five years max) for the President/Caliph, after which new elections must be held. But the details can be worked out once people are convinced we must shift to such a system. However, the constitution must stay the same aside from changing the system of government, until there is wide consensus amongst all ethnic, political and sectarian groups over a new constitution.

Some Islamic groups also suggest this... My argument is on two issues...

1. What does Islamic text state on the matter...

If we look at the Sahabah RA... They all remained Caliphs for a life term... This was the reason I said leadership for life...

2. Why remove a Caliph and place another one...

If the Caliph is doing a good job... people are satisfied and happy with him... why remove him and waste money on another elections...

YES if people are not happy and/or the Caliph breaks the contract he made upon taking the office of Caliphate... then people use a special court where they can challenge the rule of Caliph... This court is called Maqadmat e Madhalim and the Judge of this court has the right to remove the Caliph from office if the judge deems the Caliph is failing in his objectives...

If however the office of the Caliph is functioning I see no reason why we should not follow the consensus of the Sahabah RA over this matter... I also think that the post of Caliphate is of such headache that once people see how stressful a job it is to look after the affairs of the state, very few people would want to be in such a position... In islamic history also many of the Sahabah declined the offer of the Caliphate even when people offered it to them... It is nt like we have today... 4 Saal Tum Mazay Kar Lo... Aglay Char Saal Hum Mazay Karain Gay!!!

As far as implementing 'Islamic laws' is concerned, Pakistan is not the 'property of the Sunnis' or any other sect or faith, and therefore any new constitution must only be brought about through consensus amongst all groups, and not just because the majority sect wants it.

No sectarian laws shall be in place in the Islamic State... The Islamic state wont be a Sunni or a Shia state...

One of my parents is Sunni and the other Shia, and I'll be damned if I let people like you argue that the majority Sunni sect has the right to reduce half my family to second class citizens (like has been done with the Ahmadis, Christians and Hindus in our country).

All citizens of the Islamic state have equal rights and stand equally before the law... There would be no second class citizens in an Islamic state... the non Muslims like Christians and Hindus shall have their life, dignity, livelihood, property and religion protected by the Islamic State... The Caliph comes down very hard on someone who harms a non muslim citizen... because to harm a Jizya paying non Muslim is like as if someone has harmed Muhammad saw himself (this is in the hadith)

The differences in Fiqh pose no problem to the Unity of Muslims... The Shia is a legitimate school of thought in Islam... Shia are our brothers and although we have disagreements with them (they say Ali RA should have been the first Caliph we say Abu Bakr was the first Caliph) but these disagreements mean absolutely nothing for the coming Caliphate...