When a single strike reduced IAF by 30%

[Devil Soul]

A Rare photo of Major Raja Aziz Bhatti Shaheed (left)

 

[Screambowl]

Pakistani Military was in 1965 far more advanced than Indian. Their MBT and Air force was one of the best in the regions. Sabres was a damn good fighter in comparison to vampires or gnat. Paf stratfighter was the fastest in the subcontinent.

IAF has suffered the loss no doubt, but PAF has suffered enough loss , which was costly for them.

Indian canbarras made the deepest ever penetration in 65, by bombing Kohat and peshawar, without getting gunned down. Pakistan claims that most of its sabres were lost due to friendly fire.

Pakistan tried to deploy paratroopers 135 (SSG) to capture Halwara, Pathankot and Adampu air bases but they landed in some village and Villagers caught them. out of 135 only 10 returned to Pakistan.


Pakistan'S main fire power concentrated to destroy Indian air force only. And other objectives were lost on the ground when Indians reached LAHORE!

 

[Green Arrow]

Indeed, PAF's finest hours

 

[Windjammer]

Pakistani Military was in 1965 far more advanced than Indian. Their MBT and Air force was one of the best in the regions. Sabres was a damn good fighter in comparison to vampires or gnat. Paf stratfighter was the fastest in the subcontinent.

A big lol to your worthless contribution sir,......did you even bother to read the OP or for that matter what the thread title applies to. ?.....The Vampires and Ouragans were withdrawn from combat after the very first encounter with the PAF thus reducing IAF's overall strength by about 30%..... however the real challenge for the Korean era F-86s were much more modern Hunters as well Mystere IVs and the Gnats......and remember it was in a Hunter that the PAF pilot shot down an Israeli Mirage-3 and a super Mystere during the six day war, one can only imagine going into combat against these supersonic French fighters back in 1967.
As for the Starfighter, India had also received some MiG-21s by the time war started, some were encountered by PAF in the opening days, while most were destroyed during the famous Pathankot strike, IAF still had some at it's disposal towards the closing days........all in all, it wasn't the American equipment but the training, tactics and leadership of PAF which won the battles and war.

 

[Donatello]

Pakistani Military was in 1965 far more advanced than Indian. Their MBT and Air force was one of the best in the regions. Sabres was a damn good fighter in comparison to vampires or gnat. Paf stratfighter was the fastest in the subcontinent.

IAF has suffered the loss no doubt, but PAF has suffered enough loss , which was costly for them.

Indian canbarras made the deepest ever penetration in 65, by bombing Kohat and peshawar, without getting gunned down. Pakistan claims that most of its sabres were lost due to friendly fire.

Pakistan tried to deploy paratroopers 135 (SSG) to capture Halwara, Pathankot and Adampu air bases but they landed in some village and Villagers caught them. out of 135 only 10 returned to Pakistan.


Pakistan'S main fire power concentrated to destroy Indian air force only. And other objectives were lost on the ground when Indians reached LAHORE!

Indians reached lahore? You mean the famous tea party? B**ch please.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Indian losses on the whole 10%

 

[Bouncer]

Squadron Leader Peter Christy was a jolly, hard working and dedicated officer. He served as a B-57 Navigator and flew a number of successful operational missions in 1965.

Off topic but three cheers for Mr. and Mrs. Christy!!
Mrs. Christy was our headmistress in PAF School & College, Masroor Karachi. She was an amazing person and I hope she is happy where ever she is!

Anyone else from PAF Masroor?

 

[Windjammer]

Pathetic propaganda from our humble neighbors

India lost 99.1971% of its airforce.

Below is the proof-

Nonsensical attitude seems to be the forte of our frivolous neighbour.
It would help the disillusioned to at least read into the topic before running around like headless chicken
Does the article claims that PAF destroyed 30% of Indian Airforce........NO
Does it imply that due to first engagement, IAF withdrew all it's Vampires and Ouragans from combat service....resulting in some 30% reduction from total strength.........YES
Do the Indian members have the comprehension ability to differentiate between the two.......I guess not.

 

[EagleEyes]

Indian Air Force now has 3 times the aircraft of Pakistan Air Force to accommodate 3-1 kill ratio.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Nonsensical attitude seems to be the forte of our frivolous neighbour.
It would help the disillusioned to at least read into the topic before running around like headless chicken
Does the article claims that PAF destroyed 30% of Indian Airforce........NO
Does it imply that due to first engagement, IAF withdrew all it's Vampires and Ouragans from combat service....resulting in some 30% reduction from total strength.........YES
Do the Indian members have the comprehension ability to differentiate between the two.......I guess not.

My apologies post edited

 

[Screambowl]

Indians reached lahore? You mean the famous tea party? B**ch please.

Zweiter Indisch-Pakistanischer Krieg – Wikipedia

this is the german wikipedia and it itself says, that Pakistan went to USA and then China for the arms. It also points out towards Pakistan having better weapons. Both in air and land, while India had more numbers.

 

[Indian-King]

As soon as all muslims realise and realise fast due to the severe times we are living in, that it's ISLAM that gives you identity and honour not your country of origin that this Ummah will make progress. SO beleive in ummah especially ultra chauvinist pakistanis who keep their nationality ahead

 

[MilSpec]

Operation ‘Grand Slam’ was launched in the early hours of 1st September 1965. Audacious as the plan was, it took the Indians by complete surprise. A Pak Army force consisting of an infantry division and two armoured regiments, along with extensive artillery support, started the attack on Indian positions. Outnumbered and out-gunned, Brig Man Mohan Singh, Commander 191 Infantry Brigade, was faced with a critical situation and he frantically called for air support. By the time the request got an ultimate approval from the Ministry of Defence in Delhi, it was late in the afternoon.

Pathankot was the nearest airbase in the zone of conflict. It housed three squadrons including two with Mystère IVs – Nos 3 and 31 – and one with Vampires – No 45. Under command of an enthusiastic and energetic Sqn Ldr Sudesh K Dahar, No 45 Sqn had recently moved from Pune in anticipation of the hostilities. The Vampires had been armed and waiting on the tarmac since morning. Three missions had been planned and on receipt of orders, the first formation of four aircraft took off at 1650 hrs (PST) with Dahar leading.

The grim situation on the ground found the Vampires at work immediately. Much has been made of their success by the IAF, but Maj Gen G S Sandhu was not impressed; in his book History of Indian Cavalry, he recounts how the first Vampire strike of four “leisurely proceeded to destroy three AMX-13 tanks of India’s own 20 Lancers, plus the only recovery vehicle and the only ammunition vehicle available during this hard-pressed fight. The second flight attacked Indian infantry and gun positions, blowing up several ammunition vehicles.” 3 Mahar is also said to have shared the ignominy at the hands of IAF. Any pretension as to the success of Dahar’s mission was quashed when Flt Lt S V Pathak was hit by ground fire1. He however managed to stagger across to friendly territory before carrying out a remarkable bail-out, as the early vintage Vampires were not equipped with ejection seats.

At Sargodha, the main PAF airbase, Air Defence Alert duties were being shared by different F-86 Sabre squadrons. The exuberance and excitement of the pilots was exemplified by nobody better than Flt Lt Imtiaz A Bhatti of No 15 Sqn who, having completed his 0400-1200 hrs shift, pleaded to stay on for the second half, hoping to get an opportunity of flying a coveted combat sortie. With him on alert was PAF’s highly regarded and popular Sqn Ldr Sarfaraz Ahmad Rafiqui, the Squadron Commander of No 5 Sqn. Rafiqui’s happy-go-lucky style belied a thoroughly sound professional standing amongst PAF’s elite group of pilots. A gifted flier, he had bagged the ‘Atcherly Trophy’ for the Best Pilot as a cadet in the Flying College at Risalpur. He continued with a string of above average reports in his Advanced Flying Course as well as the Fighter Weapons Instructors’ Course, both done in USA. He again showed his prowess as a superb fighter pilot by topping the course at PAF’s Fighter Leaders’ School. After yet another course at RAF’s prestigious Fighter Combat School, he ended up piling a unique assortment of highly rated qualifications that served him (and the PAF) in good stead. As an exchange pilot in UK, he flew Hunters for two years. His credentials looked good; it remained to be seen if he was equally impressive in actual combat.

As the pilots ‘scrambled’ in response to the buzz on Sargodha hot line shortly before 1700 hrs (PST), it seemed certain that Rafiqui’s flair and Bhatti’s fervour would come together in a lethal combination. Within minutes, the Sabres took-off and were directed by Sakesar radar to head 060º and climb to an altitude of 20’000 ft or ‘Angels 20’, in radar jargon. Reaching the area, the radar controller set them up in a racetrack pattern in Sialkot-Chamb direction, ten miles from the border. It wasn’t long before they were ‘vectored’ to Chamb, where the second formation of four Vampires led by Flt Lt A K Bhagwagar was busy in the fray. The Sabres descended and started a visual search not only for the attacking aircraft, but also for the PAF C-in-C who was reported to be making an on-site assessment of the battle in a T-37. To say that consequences of fratricide would have been grave would be an under-statement!


Bhatti was the first to spot two Vampires crossing 3-4,000 ft underneath and the sooner he informed his leader, Rafiqui immediately acknowledged, “Contact, going for them.” Bhatti set about clearing tails while Rafiqui stalked his prey. Just then, Bhatti spotted two more aircraft a mile away, which he mistook for Canberras in the glare of the low evening sun; in fact these were Vampires from Dahar’s formation on the way out after completing their mission. As Bhatti was about to seek his leader’s permission to go for the pair, he saw another two Vampires trying to get behind Rafiqui. Almost instinctively, Bhatti broke off, positioned behind these two and in no time had one of them in his gunsight; but before Bhatti could shoot, he had to have Rafiqui out of his line of fire.

Rafiqui meanwhile, had despatched one of the Vampires with a blazing volley from the lethal 0.5” Browning six-shooter (actually six guns) and was chasing the other. At this stage, the Vampire on whom Bhatti had trained his guns was closing in on Rafiqui and the situation was getting perilous. “Break left,” yelled Bhatti, but Rafiqui managed to make short work of the second one before reacting just in time. Rafiqui then readjusted on the wing of Bhatti who got busy with his quarry. While Rafiqui cleared tails, Bhatti did an equally fast trigger job. One Vampire nosed over into the ground, which was not too far below; the other, smoking and badly damaged, ducked into the trees. It’s bewildered pilot, Flg Off Sondhi staggered back to tell the horrifying tale. The less fortunate Flt Lts A K Bhagwagar, V M Joshi and S Bharadwaj went down with their Vampires in full view of the horrified Indian troops.


Also watching the dogfight was Pakistani Brig Amjad A K Choudhry, Commander Corps Artillery. He reminisced in his book September ’65 – Before and After, “When we saw the bombers from our command post, we were apprehensive because our tanks and infantry surrounding Chamb were in the open, in close formations and were very vulnerable to air attack. The bombers went into action and came low to drop their bombs. Before they could do much damage, there was a flash in the air on top of these bombers and before we could comprehend what had happened, the Indian bombers came down in three columns of smoke.” Suggestion of Divine intervention aside, Choudhry correctly mentions the number of Vampires that fell in the dogfight, an issue that has been mired in some confusion over the years.

Back at Pathankot, the first three Vampires landed, then a singleton came in and finally, another four Vampires landed. Those on the ground thought that the lone Vampire was actually a straggler from the first formation, the four Vampires were of the second formation and, four more were yet to come. When Flt Lt Farokh J Mehta and his wingmen removed their oxygen masks, the Engineering Officer was shocked to discover that three of the second formation were missing. “He had this horrified look on his face,” Mehta recollected. Providentially, Mehta had changed places with Bhagwagar on the latter’s request, being the more experienced to lead the last formation in poor lighting conditions. He ruefully remembered how a badly shaken Sondhi narrated details of the dogfight to the crest-fallen squadron mates.

When Air Marshal M Nur Khan, who had landed at Sargodha after his recce sortie, summoned Rafiqui and Bhatti, nobody was sure if it was for a dressing down for starting an air war. Shoot-to-kill orders had not yet been issued and Rafiqui felt somewhat apprehensive, though he re-assured Bhatti that he alone would take the flak from the C-in-C. “Well done my boys,” was the reply from the man who was never in doubt about how the PAF should have responded.

This single engagement resulted in a windfall of strategic dimensions for the PAF. The shocked and demoralised IAF immediately withdrew about 80 Vampires, together with over 50 Ouragons, from front-line service.

The IAF was effectively reduced in combat strength by nearly 30% in one deadly stroke, thanks to Rafiqui and Bhatti’s marksmanship. Both were awarded a Sitara-i-Jur’at each. As for Sqn Ldr Dahar, he made up for his dampened enthusiasm with a display of considerable fortitude; it earned him a consolation Vir Chakra.

Mathematics may not be a good skill for you so highly advisable for you to stick to your renowned sanitation threads.

"The PAF lost some 25 aircraft (11 in air combat), while the Indians lost 60 (25 in air combat). This was an impressive result, but it was simply not good enough. Pakistan ended the war having depleted 17 percent of its front line strength, while India's losses amounted to less than 10 percent. Moreover, the loss rate had begun to even out, and it has been estimated that another three week's fighting would have seen the Pakistani losses rising to 33 percent and India's losses totalling 15 percent. Air superiority was not achieved, and were unable to prevent IAF fighter bombers and reconnaissance Canberras from flying daylight missions over Pakistan. Thus 1965 was a stalemate in terms of the air war with neither side able to achieve complete air superiority



According to the Library of Congress Country Studies conducted by the Federal Research Division of the United States –
The war was militarily inconclusive; each side held prisoners and some territory belonging to the other. Losses were relatively heavy—on the Pakistani side, twenty aircraft, 200 tanks, and 3,800 troops. Pakistan's army had been able to withstand Indian pressure, but a continuation of the fighting would only have led to further losses and ultimate defeat for Pakistan. Most Pakistanis, schooled in the belief of their own martial prowess, refused to accept the possibility of their country's military defeat by "Hindu India" and were, instead, quick to blame their failure to attain their military aims on what they considered to be the ineptitude of Ayub Khan and his government.

• TIME magazine reported that India held 690 mi2 of Pakistan territory while Pakistan held 250 mi2 of Indian territory in Kashmir and Rajasthan. Additionally, Pakistan had lost almost half its armour temporarily. The article further elaborates,

Severely mauled by the larger Indian armed forces, Pakistan could continue the fight only by teaming up with Red China and turning its back on the U.N.

"A region in turmoil: South Asian conflicts since 1947" by Robert Johnson mentions –
India's strategic aims were modest – it aimed to deny Pakistani Army victory, although it ended up in possession of 720 square miles (1,900 km2) of Pakistani territory for the loss of just 220 square miles (570 km2) of its own.



@Windjammer BTW attacking a weakened India from Indo-China war defeat does indeed say explain a lot about pakistani psyche

 

[karan.1970]

all in all, it wasn't the American equipment but the training, tactics and leadership of PAF which won the battles and war.

won the war? You mean the war that Pakistan launched to capture Kashmir and declared itself as victorious by successfully defending lahore ?

 

[Pakistani till death]

Cant say anything about 71 as it was a decisive indian victory however the rest all ended with ceasefires and among them 65 is unique and i would credit pakistan of having the upper hand at the end
Reasons:
1. Indian aim: take control of lahore and immediately win the war
Pakistani aim: defend lahore
Result: pakistan successfully defended lahore

2. Indian aim: take control of sialkot to have the upper hand in kashmir side and make pakistan surrender
Pakistani aim: defend sialkot
Result: sialkot successfully defended with heroics by pak jawans unmatched eg lying down infront of indian tanks and blowing them

3. Indian aim: take kasur so have the upper hand in the negotiations
Pakistani aim: defend kasur
Result: kasur successfully defended

Historians and so called neutral sources put india ahead by facts like india reached the outskirts of lahore and sialkot but the fact is lahore is a couple of km from the border and still india couldnt take it and also india was on the offence and we were on the defence and even with that we still took 540 sq miles of indian territory

4. Air war decisive pakistan victory even with indian claims
Ind claims: pak planes lost: 43
Ind planes lost: 75
Pak claims: pak planes lost: 18
Ind planes lost: 110

Pakistan won
Pakistan zindabad