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What would you like to have in the JF-17

I like and favour JF-17 and I wish we can overcome its limitations. I know it will be here after investing so much resources but also wish that some airframe level upgrades are incorporated in block IV or V so as to accommodate our indigenously developed ALCMs etc. It is heartening for me know that PAF leadership (Air Chief's recent interviews) has now realised the importance of indigenously designing the project though with assistance and joint ventures.
They will come as the project matures and progresses. The best thing about such a project is that we can incorporate the changes as per our changing needs. That alone is a huge advantage, something we never had in the past. So all those ALCMs and other upgrades will come gradually when the need arise and as the project progresses. Again i cannot not stress enough of what this will mean for our future ventures. We may have lost some time, missed a trick or two but that was the beginning for us, the start, surely all those mistakes and all those achievements will matter a lot and have significance going forward.
 
We still lack a specialized steel plant working at producing high grade steel and alloys with an R&D set up for metalurgical research. Jusf this one venture can set you back a couple of billion dollars for a plant. In short we have a lot of challenges ahead of us.
Not specific "steel" plant, but rather a dedicated Metallurgical Research Institute.

It's campuses can further be divided into various research centres with each working in specific area.
Metals, Alloys, Composites, Polymers, Glasses, Ceramics .......

We lags behind in key areas .......
 
Not specific "steel" plant, but rather a dedicated Metallurgical Research Institute.

It's campuses can further be divided into various research centres with each working in specific area.
Metals, Alloys, Composites, Polymers, Glasses, Ceramics .......

We lags behind in key areas .......
And quite a few of these are things for which we have the raw materials available. We need to just setup that RnD facilities and gradually start using all those available resources. The implications will go beyond military equipment.
 
Not specific "steel" plant, but rather a dedicated Metallurgical Research Institute.

It's campuses can further be divided into various research centres with each working in specific area.
Metals, Alloys, Composites, Polymers, Glasses, Ceramics .......

We lags behind in key areas .......
That would not be a bad idea. However any R &D requires a dedicated setup to manufacture the alloy and test it out. A lot of metallurgical research is about testing the product and various temperatures on which to manufacture it. So we will need to pour a lot of money in before we can safely say we have research facilities.
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We still lack a specialized steel plant working at producing high grade steel and alloys with an R&D set up for metalurgical research. Jusf this one venture can set you back a couple of billion dollars for a plant. In short we have a lot of challenges ahead of us.
People's Steel Mills is or was one such organisation that was able to produce maraging steel and many other types. Furthermore, steel mills has always under performed due to the incompetent management and corruption. All it needs is an acid dip for the whole team and except for the honest and professional people. It should be coupled with an experimental R&D facility for materials. What I heard that when the greatest of Pakistan leaders ZAB brought this project to Pakistan through his par excellence diplomatic skills from USSR, it was planned as a long term project with up-gradation and expansion of facilities and production in multiple phases. But after ZAB, Pakistan and USSR actually found themselves on collision trajectory and thus the next steps did not materialise. Without ability to produce high grade and advanced materials, a foray into the development of gas turbines for aerospace applications is not possible. In my opinion, it should have been given a similar attention and significance as the nuclear program. Right now, there are several missing links and thus the costs are unnaturally high for Pakistan and often such materials are classified as dual use and thus prone to embargoes. We never had a competent minister for industrial production though it alone cannot do much since an equally competent minister for science and technology is required to work in tandem and it takes a long time.
 
People's Steel Mills is or was one such organisation that was able to produce maraging steel and many other types.

Hi dear @war&peace
Can you kindly highlight when was PSM able to indigenously manufacture maraging steel in pakistan?An official link from company's portfolio or literature would do just fine!
 
What I heard that when the greatest of Pakistan leaders ZAB brought this project to Pakistan through his par excellence diplomatic skills from USSR, it was planned as a long term project with up-gradation and expansion of facilities and production in multiple phases. But after ZAB, Pakistan and USSR actually found themselves on collision trajectory and thus the next steps did not materialise.

What I know from the people involved in this project, Steel Mills was just the beginning around 200-300 factories were to be constructed around it, which would have consumed its steel. Therefore, it had to be expanded gradually But.... after ZAB's departure entire project got derailed.
 
NDC must be doing some R&D.
No, not really! :(
And the one institute that may have done something have been left alone to die its own slow death for the past 3 years. A news coming this Ramazan of the organization being handed over to SPD was a welcoming sign as they might revive it otherwise people were not getting there pays for last 6 months. :( PRIORITIES!!!

People's Steel Mills is or was one such organisation that was able to produce maraging steel and many other types. Furthermore, steel mills has always under performed due to the incompetent management and corruption. All it needs is an acid dip for the whole team and except for the honest and professional people. It should be coupled with an experimental R&D facility for materials. What I heard that when the greatest of Pakistan leaders ZAB brought this project to Pakistan through his par excellence diplomatic skills from USSR, it was planned as a long term project with up-gradation and expansion of facilities and production in multiple phases. But after ZAB, Pakistan and USSR actually found themselves on collision trajectory and thus the next steps did not materialise. Without ability to produce high grade and advanced materials, a foray into the development of gas turbines for aerospace applications is not possible. In my opinion, it should have been given a similar attention and significance as the nuclear program. Right now, there are several missing links and thus the costs are unnaturally high for Pakistan and often such materials are classified as dual use and thus prone to embargoes. We never had a competent minister for industrial production though it alone cannot do much since an equally competent minister for science and technology is required to work in tandem and it takes a long time.
And we are living in good times to revive those planned upgrades and take those lost steps now! It is the perfect time to do so talking in perspective of new forming Geo-political alliances!
The problem is "who cares". Lets talk about a plant in Chiniot as it will be "our" achievement! Screw the country!
 
And we are living in good times to revive those planned upgrades and take those lost steps now! It is the perfect time to do so talking in perspective of new forming Geo-political alliances!
The problem is "who cares". Lets talk about a plant in Chiniot as it will be "our" achievement! Screw the country!
I wish Pakistan negotiates with Russia for the completion of steel mills to a capacity of 3 million tonnes as per original plan and also a massive up-gradation. I don't see any harm in opening a new steel mills in Chiniot too but first things first i.e. Pakistan Steel Mills needs a revival. Furthermore we need to initiate high level research in all types of materials including steels and such an institute can function under the umbrella of NESCOM but open enough to invite top researchers from around the globe.
 
I wish Pakistan negotiates with Russia for the completion of steel mills to a capacity of 3 million tonnes as per original plan and also a massive up-gradation. I don't see any harm in opening a new steel mills in Chiniot too but first things first i.e. Pakistan Steel Mills needs a revival. Furthermore we need to initiate high level research in all types of materials including steels and such an institute can function under the umbrella of NESCOM but open enough to invite top researchers from around the globe.
Yes, first things first,, that is all i say. :)
No argument about the need for investing in material RnD! Seriously lack in that department and that is a project so big i do not see many private sector players willing to initiate it. Government needs to be involved.
 
No, not really! :(
And the one institute that may have done something have been left alone to die its own slow death for the past 3 years. A news coming this Ramazan of the organization being handed over to SPD was a welcoming sign as they might revive it otherwise people were not getting there pays for last 6 months. :( PRIORITIES!!
SUPARCO? o_O
 
Lolz NO!!
SUPARCO have nothing to do with it. I was talking about HMC as they have the right equipment and technical skill of playing with iron, steel and its alloys. Just couple it with some good RnD facility and they could have very well handled the production side. The sad story is that the whole organization have been left alone to rot with people not getting paid and absolutely no work/orders. It was only a few weeks back that it was confirmed that it wil be handed over to SPD and i am quite optimistic about the future now. Still, WHO is responsible for those lost 3 years? and the this is the kind of corruption and criminal negligence that don't even make it to the news. Equipment and potential worth billions down the drains only because some of your colleagues and friends can get the same orders,,, after all, HMARI HAKUMAT HA HUM JO MARZI KRAIN (as per Abid Sher Ali Sb). Pathetic!

Anyway, lets stick to JF17 here. It have been discussed and agreed with that any investment in RnD of steel allows as well as other material studies will go a long way in strengthening our military forces and the benefits will be way more than something restricted to military alone. It is something that we should seriously consider as we will most likely be involved in JF17 like projects in the future as well.
 
What I know from the people involved in this project, Steel Mills was just the beginning around 200-300 factories were to be constructed around it, which would have consumed its steel. Therefore, it had to be expanded gradually But.... after ZAB's departure entire project got derailed.
You give far too much credit to Bhutto. The crook is reponsiblle for the dismemberment of pakistan and the financial turmoil the country went into for half a decade. Anyways the Steel mills at Pkararchi was a bit of a scam as well. The facility wasa archaic in nature and if you expect it to develop into a centre for producing high grade steel you are sadly mistaken. All the Russians did was to use the offical cars provided to them for their family@s shopping trips. The furnace cracked soon after initiation and there have been a lot of problems. So the mill is still reeling in trouble and leaking money like no business.
what was probably the right approach was what was recommended by the Germans in 50s. They suggested a couple of smaller and more efficient plants rather than a huge setup. Pakistan at that time had the financial reserves and money to spend. We instead wasted it on procuring 2000 cars from US and Germany for our elites. It is a tale odf woes the way the country has ben looted .
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And quite a few of these are things for which we have the raw materials available. We need to just setup that RnD facilities and gradually start using all those available resources. The implications will go beyond military equipment.
Was the GIK institute of metallurgy set up to educate people in the field. What is going on there?
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Was the GIK institute of metallurgy set up to educate people in the field. What is going on there?
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Same thing that is happening at all those other institutes sir, churning out engineers with no were to go to and no real future due to proper research based or even production oriented industry. Not aware if GIK or any other engineering contributed anything substantial in this regard apart from a few papers maybe or graduation projects.
 
This is the era of outsourcing and insourcing.

One totally agrees with the idea of local R&D in the fields of metallurgy and more so in new material sciene...

at the sametime, given the development curve of your aviation industry would it not be wise to make rational jumps in development?

With 3D printing 'factory' and imported alloys game changes faster. ROI will be sooner.

Copy what is working (to accelerate production and of course learning),
import what is necessary,
improve what you can.

Buy time and keep churning out platforms..

There are no medals if its 100% yours or not...

does the defence system work & keeps your country safe,

is it cost effective,

has it created jobs,

can you build on it to jump to the next stage of development cycle?

By skipping a few phases your country can enter a development curve that will break your chains.

PAC is doing great work.
 
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