What would happen if Venezuela sold its F-16's to Iran?

[Philosopher]

Oversimplification to state f16 is outdated in 2020. With the right pilots, experience, EW support, it is still brilliant. Just ask the PAF what they think of it. Probably the reality is that if a nation has already been used to and pretty much had its teeth cut for decades on the f16 platform (Israel and Pakistan spring to mind as apt examples who have gained experience with it in combat) those nations can still extract plenty of mileage from it. To suddenly take on f16s as a new platform may well be a futile effort in 2020.

Like I said eluded to earlier, the F-16 certainly has its uses, but when one considers the Iranian situation, faced with adversaries with 5th generation fighter jets, then like you said, using the F-16 as a platform at this time is not a wise investment.

They are mockups. Look at the engine.

There were models created by some Iranian. I can't recall his name. I believe he is deceased now but he used to make models of planes.

 

[QWECXZ]

This is a highly superficial understanding of this matter. You do not just sent in a long range into such a conflict and expect miracles. Long range air defence system likes Bavar, S-300 etc must be complemented by other layers of air defence in order to protect them otherwise they are highly vulnerable. Furthermore, Bavar can easily overwhelmed by the Israelis in Syria. This does not mean Bavar could not easily down F-16s.

Qaher was not an air superiority fighter nor was it a 5th generation project so I am not sure what that is relevant to this discussion.

This comment makes no sense. Most engines are of almost identical dimensions, since when does the design of an air-intakes depend on such engines? Look at the Su-57, it currently uses the AL-41 and will transition to the
izdeliye 30 later, but no alteration in intake needed.

Furthermore, consider another idea, such as Divert-less Supersonic Inlet (DSI). The F-35 DSI was used in an F-16, was a change in the engine needed?

Encrypted communication and being "jam proof" etc is absolutely essential in manual mode, it is not just a "plus". That is one of the main reason why remotely controlled systems are so vulnerable today.


Again, these concepts are still not mature technologies. When they are mature enough, then we can discuss, but as of now, we cannot make the claims with regards to when this will happen. Autonomous fighters will become a reality, no doubt. When that will happen is anyone's guess. It is a fool's errand to try and predict the future with any meaningful certainty.

Doesn't Syria already have an array of air defense systems? S125, S200, S300-PM, Pantsir S-1, BUK M-1 and BUK M-2, and possibly Tor? It's not like Syria has no air defense systems at the moment. Bavar-373, Khordad 15 and Khordad 3 should provide a layer of air defense for Syria against "obsolete" F16s. I don't see why it's superficial.

Qaher-313 was claimed to be Iran's first attempt at producing a 5th generation jet fighter. Feel free to prove me wrong.

You're probably right. Fair enough.

I never said encrypted communication is a plus. I said having a manual mode is a plus. And it can rely on encrypted communication. What did you read in your head? Your answer makes no sense in anyway. Wireless communication will always be used. It won't go anywhere, unlike manned jet fighters.

LOL. BCI technologies are already mature enough to become commercialized in near future:
https://www.newscientist.com/articl...taches-to-nerves-feels-like-part-of-the-body/
Scientists control mouse brain by remote control:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-wireless-mouse-brain-idUSKCN0PY24920150724

If you think by 2050, we will still fly manned jet fighters with pilots like today, I feel sorry for your power of imagination and innovation.

 

[Aspen]

There were models created by some Iranian. I can't recall his name. I believe he is deceased now but he used to make models of planes.

That's not just some random model, that's either an exact carbon copy replica or it is a real F-16.

Like I said eluded to earlier, the F-16 certainly has its uses, but when one considers the Iranian situation, faced with adversaries with 5th generation fighter jets, then like you said, using the F-16 as a platform at this time is not a wise investment.

I have never understood this line of logic.

Just because F-16 may be outdated does not mean that you should stick with even older technology like F-14. Look, nobody is getting 5th gen anytime soon. So stop worrying about 5th gen, if you can get a solid 4th gen F-16 like Pakistan and Turkey, it is good enough. Just because you can't get 5th gen doesn't mean 4th gen is bad, most of the world uses 4th gen, otherwise you'll be stuck with F-14.

 

[QWECXZ]

Just because F-16 may be outdated does not mean that you should stick with even older technology like F-14. Look, nobody is getting 5th gen anytime soon. So stop worrying about 5th gen, if you can get a solid 4th gen F-16 like Pakistan and Turkey, it is good enough. Just because you can't get 5th gen doesn't mean 4th gen is bad, most of the world uses 4th gen, otherwise you'll be stuck with F-14.

^^ This. You worded it perfectly.

Having 20 well-upgraded F16s will neutralize the superiority of a large number of jet fighters that our neighbors use. It will be useless against the US for sure. But F16 will continue to be the backbone of the air forces in the region until at least 2025 in the most pessimistic scenario.

 

[Philosopher]

Doesn't Syria already have an array of air defense systems? S125, S200, S300-PM, Pantsir S-1, BUK M-1 and BUK M-2, and possibly Tor? It's not like Syria has no air defense systems at the moment.

Having sporadic systems here and there does not equate to an integrated air defence network. Sending a system as capable as Bavar-373 into Syria by itself would make little difference. What Syria needs a proper reformation of its air defence forces. I am not even going into their level of competence. That is another discussion all together.

Qaher-313 was claimed to be Iran's first attempt at producing a 5th generation jet fighter. Feel free to prove me wrong.

"Was claimed" by whom? Please don't use journalist as a source.

I never said "encrypted communication" is a plus. I said having a manual mode is a plus. And it can rely on encrypted communication. What did you read in your head? Your answer makes no sense in anyway. Wireless communication will always be used. It won't go anywhere, unlike manned jet fighters.

You said:

"I am saying that an encrypted communication can be a plus if you want to use it in manual mode"

And I basically used when using a manual mode, an encryption is not just a plus like you appear to say, but a necessity.

LOL. BCI technologies are already mature enough to become commercialized in near future:
https://www.newscientist.com/articl...taches-to-nerves-feels-like-part-of-the-body/
Scientists control mouse brain by remote control:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-wireless-mouse-brain-idUSKCN0PY24920150724

You're extrapolating some small lab experiment into a technology being considered ready to use to that extend. Furthermore, your two example i.e prosthetic leg and the brain control systems are not on the same level. Did you even read the articles?

If you think by 2050, we will still fly manned jet fighters with pilots like today, I feel sorry for your power of imagination and innovation.

I suppose you're on a different wavelength compared to the rest of us mortals. You apparently can predict the future with certainty. Furthermore, make sure to notify the American, British, Chinese and Russians about your theory on manned fighter jets given they are still planning to develop those systems. Something like Tempest will only enter service around the 2040 time period.

The Tempest fighter will be targeted to enter service around 2035-2040,

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/02/uk-to-invite-india-to-co-develop-sixth.html

Perhaps you should have stuck to your initial 2070 claim.

 

[Aspen]

^^ This. You worded it perfectly.

Having 20 well-upgraded F16s will neutralize the superiority of a large number of jet fighters that our neighbors use. It will be useless against the US for sure. But F16 will continue to be the backbone of the air forces in the region until at least 2025 in the most pessimistic scenario.

I wouldn't say F16 would be useless against US.

F14 does not have a chance against F35 but an F16 does.

Yeah US would know everything about F16 but that doesn't make it a less lethal airplane. An F16 in the right hands can do a lot of damage, in close quarters, it will do well against even an F35.

US has also deployed tons of its own F16's to Persian Gulf. USAF F16 vs IRIAF F16 will be really interesting, it will come down to who is the better pilot.

 

[Philosopher]

T



Just because F-16 may be outdated does not mean that you should stick with even older technology like F-14.

Iran already has the F-14 and has upgraded it. It does not even have the F-16. Once again, you are not thinking in terms of time-scale. By the time Iran could have produced the F-16, it will be even more outdated than it already is.

Look, nobody is getting 5th gen anytime soon.

America and Israel do not count I suppose?

if you can get a solid 4th gen F-16 like Pakistan and Turkey, it is good enough. Just because you can't get 5th gen doesn't mean 4th gen is bad, most of the world uses 4th gen, otherwise you'll be stuck with F-14.

The 4th generation platforms do have their uses, but as air superiority planes, they are not a wise investment for Iran. You need to understand that it takes time for Iran to get these planes. Time is not on the side of these 4th generation fighter platforms.

 

[Michael Corleone]

Just one or two F16s were delivered to Iran. Iran had ordered 80 of them before the 1979 revolution.

so they returned the money or nah?

 

[QWECXZ]

Having sporadic systems here and there does not equate to an integrated air defence network. Sending a system as capable as Bavar-373 into Syria by itself would make little difference. What Syria needs a proper reformation of its air defence forces. I am not even going into their level of competence. That is another discussion all together.

Yeah, yeah. Arabs are incompetent, blah blah blah. Syria does have air defense systems and Israeli F16s aren't obsolete. What is obsolete is your mindset that you think Iran doesn't need 4th generation jet fighters because one day in distant future it will produce 5th generation jet fighters.

"Was claimed" by whom? Please don't use journalist as a source.

Seriously, I don't want to continue self-flagellation by talking about Qaher-313. Journalists cite officials in Iran. Do you want me to show you the video of Qaher-313 taxi test? It's called a 5th generation jet fighter times and times again. It has been repeatedly called a "stealth, 5th generation jet fighter" in the Iranian media.

You said:

"I am saying that an encrypted communication can be a plus if you want to use it in manual mode"

And I basically used when using a manual mode, an encryption is not just a plus like you appear to say, but a necessity.

No, that proves you don't read what I write attentively. What I said was this:

No, I am saying that an encrypted communication can be a plus if you want to use it in manual mode. I said it could switch to the autonomous mode if necessary. An encrypted communication is a basic requirement for communication and networking among airborne assets anyway.

So, I said it even before you said it. lol

One of the requirements for a 5th generation jet fighter is networking. How do you want to build a 5th generation jet fighter if you are against the idea of wireless communication in the first place? lol

You're extrapolating some small lab experiment into a technology being considered ready to use to that extend. Furthermore, your two example i.e prosthetic leg and the brain control systems are not on the same level. Did you even read the articles?

Lab experiments on this sort of stuff were done in 1940s when Jose Delgado proved brain stimulation to be possible.
You really have to stop talking about something you have no clue about. I am already partially involved in cognitive neuroscience as a grad student from a different background. You seem totally clueless about the whole thing, yet you keep talking about it. Those two articles are perfect examples of what I talked about.

I suppose you're on a different wavelength compared to the rest of us mortals. You apparently can predict the future with certainty. Furthermore, make sure to notify the American, British, Chinese and Russians about your theory on manned fighter jets given they are still planning to develop those systems. Something like Tempest will only service around the 2040 time period.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/02/uk-to-invite-india-to-co-develop-sixth.html

Perhaps you should have stuck to your initial 2070 claim.

No, my 2050 claim is intact. And it is quite clear for anyone who has a basic understanding of neuroscience and AI that we are witnessing a revolution in both fields at the moment.

so they returned the money or nah?

Nope. They didn't.

 

[Michael Corleone]

iran already have f-16 .

apparently However, the aircraft is in the Venezuelan Air Force color scheme and the image seems to have been taken inside one of the soft hangars at El Libertador airbase as shown in this photo on the F16.net website.

Nope. They didn't.

classic, how come iran didn't take US to international court?

 

[Aspen]

Iran already has the F-14 and has upgraded it. It does not even have the F-16. Once again, you are not thinking in terms of time-scale. By the time Iran could have produced the F-16, it will be even more outdated than it already is.

Nobody is saying Iran needs to produce F16, you just need to maintain it.

Like I have explained to you already, the 4th generation platforms do have their uses, but as air superiority planes, they are not a wise investment for Iran. You need to understand that it takes time for Iran to get these planes. Time is not on the side of these 4th generation fighter platforms.

If you can't get a Lamborghini, it doesn't mean you don't buy a car, it just means you buy a BMW instead. Taking a couple of F16 is not going to hurt Iran. So what if F16 is not air superiority? F14 is not air superiority in 2020 either. Even if US gets 6th gen, F16 will still better than F14 today, tomorrow, or 20 years from now. Forget about how enemy has advanced, Iran needs to focus on how IRIAF advances. Time is irrelevant, otherwise F-14's would be scrapped by now. These planes are designed to last a long time, F16 is still a very capable airplane in service with all of Iran's neighbors and US still uses it. Maybe in future it will be obsolete but right now it isn't, F16 is still current technology that is worth having, especially if you can get it at a cheap price. Russia will charge astronomical prices after arms embargo is lifted, Venezuelan F16's are almost certainly a better deal for Iran.

 

[QWECXZ]

classic, how come Iran didn't take US to international court?

It's a long story. It dates back to the US embassy siege situation in early 1980s. They froze trillions of dollars of Iranian assets in the US. Almost 2 trillion dollars, if I'm not mistaken, were seized by the US.

Iran has taken the US to the international court recently, and Iran will most probably win the case. But it will be a political victory only as the international court of justice is pretty much useless for forcing a permanent UNSC member to fulfill its promises.

 

[Philosopher]

Yeah, yeah. Arabs are incompetent, blah blah blah. Syria does have defense systems and Israeli F16s aren't obsolete. What is obsolete is your mindset.

You are getting rather childish now. If you can't engage in these technical discussion, which are clearly beyond your understanding, then stick to a topic more on your level.

eriously, I don't want to continue self-flagellation by talking about Qaher-313. Journalists cite officials in Iran. Do you want me to show you the video of Qaher-313 taxi test? It's called a 5th generation jet fighter times and times again. It has been repeatedly called a "stealth, 5th generation jet fighter" in the Iranian media.

You are making up things as you go along. No Iranian official ever referred to it as a 5th generation fighter. I am still waiting for your to post a single reference.

One of the requirements for a 5th generation jet fighter is networking. How do you want to build a 5th generation jet fighter if you are against the idea of wireless communication in the first place? lol

You are flip flopping between manned fighter jets and unmanned. The point regarding communication was in the context of unmanned systems.

Lab experiments on this sort of stuff were done in 1940s when Jose Delgado proved brain stimulation to be possible.

Congratulations for proving that even after many years of lab level experiment, things can still not reach a level of maturity to implemented in a highly practical setting.

You really have to stop talking about something you have no clue about. I am already partially involved in cognitive neuroscience as a grad student from a different background. You seem totally clueless about the whole thing, yet you keep talking about it. Those two articles are perfect examples of what I talked about.

First learn the simple difference between the topics in your own posted articles then accuse others of being "clueless". You appear to be getting riled up. Like I said, if these discussion are beyond your understanding, no need to get involved.

No, my 2050 claim is intact. And it is quite clear for anyone who has a basic understanding of neuroscience and AI.

Yes, apparently not given how manned systems will still be entering service as far as 2040 and beyond. Excuse me if I rather take actual facts on the ground more seriously than claims by someone claiming to be "partially involved in cognitive science".

I think the famous story of Apelles and the shoe-maker applies nicely.

"Pliny relates several anecdotes about Apelles (late fourth century BC), who would place his pictures in view of the public and, standing out of sight, listen to what was said. Once, when a shoemaker faulted Apelles for drawing a sandal with one loop too few, he rectified it. But, when the shoemaker then found fault with the subject's leg, Apelles looked out from behind the picture and rebuked him, saying that a shoemaker should not go beyond his sandal"

Moral of the story in case you could not understand it: Stick to what you know.

 

[Mithridates]

so they returned the money or nah?

during Obama they returned 1.5 billion dollars.

F14 does not have a chance against F35 but an F16 does.

bro back in 70's when US wanted to design f-14, one of main requirements were to f-14 radar be able to track soviet cruise missiles (0.01 sqm RCS) in long ranges. tomcat can detect f-35 around 70 kms.

 

[Philosopher]

Nobody is saying Iran needs to produce F16, you just need to maintain it.

And that also takes time, unless you think Iran can just simply repair a fighter jet it never had in its arsenal.

If you can't get a Lamborghini, it doesn't mean you don't buy a car, it just means you buy a BMW instead.

If that BMW does not meet your requirement, then it is waste of resources.

Taking a couple of F16 is not going to hurt Iran. So what if F16 is not air superiority? F14 is not air superiority in 2020 either.

Iran already has the F-14. And has modernised it. You want Iran to start to process agains with another fighter jet which will not meet its requirement?

Even if US gets 6th gen, F16 will still better than F14 today, tomorrow, or 20 years from now

.

The choice here is not between F-16 and F-14, but rather Iran wasting time and resources on an F-16 or spend it one projects that can meet its requirement.

Forget about how enemy has advanced, Iran needs to focus on how IRIAF advances. Time is irrelevant, otherwise F-14's would be scrapped by now.

Iran kept the F-14 flying because for many years it had not other alternative. It was out of necessity.

These planes are designed to last a long time, F16 is still a very capable airplane in service with all of Iran's neighbors and US still uses it. Maybe in future it will be obsolete but right now it isn't, F16 is still current technology that is worth having, especially if you can get it at a cheap price. Russia will charge astronomical prices after arms embargo is lifted, Venezuelan F16's are almost certainly a better deal for Iran.

We're just going in circles I feel. Even if Iran got the F-16 today, it will be years by the time it was modernised, furthermore, the quantity will be too limited. This is simple a bad use of time and resources for Iran. If this was 20 years ago, things would be different, but not in 2020. If you see Iran do contrary of what I said, notify me and I'll happily admit to being wrong.