What would happen if Venezuela sold its F-16's to Iran?

[Michael Corleone]

during Obama they returned 1.5 billion dollars

I hope it was inflated for inflation

It's a long story. It dates back to the US embassy siege situation in early 1980s. They froze trillions of dollars of Iranian assets in the US. Almost 2 trillion dollars, if I'm not mistaken, were seized by the US.

Iran has taken the US to the international court recently, and Iran will most probably win the case. But it will be a political victory only as the international court of justice is pretty much useless for forcing a permanent UNSC member to fulfill its promises.

Iran’s ultimate survival it seems is with attaining the nuclear weapon.

 

[QWECXZ]

You are getting rather childish now. If you can't engage in these technical discussion, which are clearly beyond your understanding, then stick to a topic more on your level.

Your arguments are so ridiculous that anyone can refute them. I just don't want to turn into self-flagellation and put down Iran to defeat a clown like you. Otherwise, anyone knows what the "obsolete" Israeli F16s are doing in Syria.

You are making up things as you go along. No Iranian official ever referred to it as a 5th generation fighter. I am still waiting for your to post a single reference.

A propaganda video of the state-sponsored TV of Iran, which is controlled by the system is a good enough proof for me of what it is advertised as. And Ahmad Vahidi has called it a stealth jet fighter with low RCS a million times. And after 7 years, all we have seen from it is a taxi test.

You are flip flopping between manned fighter jets and unmanned. The point regarding communication was in the context of unmanned systems.

No, you are just dyslexic. lol I said that it can be operated in manual and autonomous modes. Obviously, a manual mode requires communication which has to be encrypted. You said I said encrypted communication is a plus, you were proven wrong as I had never meant such a thing. So, stop talking nonsense and move on.

Congratulations for proving that even after many years of lab level experiment, things can still not reach a level of maturity to implemented in a highly practical setting.

They won't make this sort of research public as it makes mind control possible even for ordinary citizens. And I just showed you that scientists are already controlling animals with brain implants using remote controls. You can't expect a topic so controversial like this to be made available for public use. But the areas that can be used in medicine for prosthetic body parts are being commercialized fast.

First learn the simple difference between the topics in your own posted articles then accuse others of being "clueless". You appear to be getting riled up. Like I said, if these discussion are beyond your understanding, no need to get involved.

You are completely clueless. You can't even talk for 10 minutes about the anatomy of the brain. My understanding is clearly superior to a joke like you that thinks Qaher-313 is a real stealth jet fighter and Iran doesn't need F16s because one day it might potentially be able to produce 5th generation jet fighters. And the best proof he can come up with is an interview that calls Kowsar an F5. lol

Yes, apparently not given how manned systems will still be entering service as far as 2040 and beyond. Excuse me if I rather take actual facts on the ground more seriously than claims by someone claiming to be "partially involved in cognitive science".

I think the famous story of Apelles and the shoe-maker applies nicely.

"Pliny relates several anecdotes about Apelles (late fourth century BC), who would place his pictures in view of the public and, standing out of sight, listen to what was said. Once, when a shoemaker faulted Apelles for drawing a sandal with one loop too few, he rectified it. But, when the shoemaker then found fault with the subject's leg, Apelles looked out from behind the picture and rebuked him, saying that a shoemaker should not go beyond his sandal"

Moral of the story in case you could not understand it: Stick to what you know.

A project planned for 2040 is a "fact on the ground"? lol
These projects will be modified over time. There have been numerous projects in the history of aviation that got cancelled or modified. So, your news for something that is bound to happen 20 years ago proves absolutely nothing.

 

[Philosopher]

Your arguments are so ridiculous that anyone can refute them. I just don't want to turn into self-flagellation. Otherwise, anyone knows what the Israeli F16s are doing in Syria.

Yet you have not refuted a single one yet. Given you do not even understand basics of integrated air defence network, which leads you to ask meaningless questions like why Iran just not send Bavar-373 to Syria etc. Like I said: Stick to what you know.

A propaganda video of the state-sponsored TV of Iran, which is controlled by the system is a good enough proof for me of what it is advertised as. And Ahmad Vahidi has called it a stealth jet fighter with low RCS a million times. And after 7 years, all we have seen from it is a taxi test.

Once again, no evidence that anyone called it a 5th generation fighter jet. Furthermore, not all stealth platforms are 5th generation. F-117 for example. Just because they referred to it as stealthy, it does not equate to it being of the 5th generation. You are showing to have little understanding of even basic concepts.

No, you are just dyslexic. lol I said that it can be operated in manual and autonomous modes. Obviously, a manual mode requires communication which has to be encrypted. You said I said encrypted communication is a plus, you were proven wrong as I had never meant such a thing. So, stop your nonsense and move on.

I am talking about a manned plane, i.e pilot being physically present in a plane. Why would such a plane need to be work in autonomous mode? You were referring to manned planes in the sense of remote piloting from what I can see. Make your mind up regarding where you stand instead of flip flopping every 2 second.

They won't make this sort of research public as it makes mind control possible. And I just showed you that scientists are already controlling animals with brain implants using remote controls. You can't expect a topic so controversial like this to be made available for public use.

Don't waste my time with these meaningless conspiracy theories please.

My understanding is clearly superior to a joke like you that thinks Qaher-313 is a real stealth jet fighter and Iran doesn't need F16s because one day it might potentially be able to produce 5th generation jet fighters.

Resorting to insults shows your desperation. Rest of your comment is basically strawman.

A project planned for 2040 is a "fact on the ground"? lol
These projects will be modified over time. There have been numerous projects in the history of aviation that got cancelled or modified. So, your news for something that is bound to happen 20 years ago proves absolutely nothing.

Yes, it is indeed fact on the ground. It is an ongoing project and I have posted claims by the manufacturer. And that is not the only example. Can things change, sure. Like I said, do not expect anyone to take your own conjecture seriously. If you wish to create predictions, feel free, just don't expect any validity to them.

 

[QWECXZ]

Yet you have not refuted a single one yet. Given you do not even understand basics of integrated air defence network, which leads you to ask meaningless questions like why Iran just not send Bavar-373 to Syria etc. Like I said: Stick to what you know.

Once again, no evidence that anyone called it a 5th generation fighter jet. Furthermore, not all stealth platforms are 5th generation. F-117 for example. Just because they referred to it as stealthy, it does not equate to it being of the 5th generation. You are showing to have little understanding of even basic concepts.

I am talking about a manned plane, i.e pilot being physically present in a plane. Why would such a plane need to be work in autonomous mode? You were referring to manned planes in the sense of remote piloting from what I can see. Make your mind up regarding where you stand instead of flip flopping every 2 second.

Don't waste my time with these meaningless conspiracy theories please.


Resorting to insults shows your desperation. Rest of your comment is basically strawman.

Yes, it is indeed fact on the ground. It is an ongoing project and I have posted claims by the manufacturer. And that is not the only example. Can things chance, sure. Like I said, do not expect anyone to take your own conjecture seriously. If you wish to create predictions, feel free, just don't expect any validity to them.

Iran operates many of the AD systems that Syria operates such as S200, S300, BUK M1, Pantsir S-1, etc. What prevents Iran from integrating Khordad 3, Khordad 15 or Bavar-373 with the Syrian air defense to provide its own troops a safe sky at least? Russians are doing that in Syria.

So, what does this stealth jet fighter use for propulsion? J85 perhaps?

I wasn't talking about the pilot being physically present in the plane, which once again proves that you don't read and just spew nonsense for the sake of having said something. I was talking about a pilot inside a bunker controlling a jet fighter with his thoughts as he sits in front of a simulator. Our argument began when you said encrypted communication is necessary, thinking I had said otherwise. You were proven wrong as I had in fact said that encrypted communication is a basic requirement. Yet, you are insisting on that even though you have already been proven wrong regarding that.

Conspiracy theories? lol If anything, you are wasting my time. Not the other way around.

You started personal attacks first, which proved your desperation. Blaming something you started on others only proves your desperation once more.

Here's a summary of your remarkable remarks that I will continue to remember from now on:

1. F16 is obsolete. The only reason that 4,500 F16s are currently operational is because people want to use them against countries with no air defense like Syria.
2. Wireless communication is vulnerable and hence remote controlling a jet fighter won't happen in the next 3 decades. It is an insane fantasy that clueless people can only imagine it.
3. Russia or China will sell us turbofan engines with ToT or we will build them on our own from scratch by 2030.
4. Buying 20 Venezuelan F16s as a backup plan for a country like Iran with limited options for suppliers is a waste of resources and time.
5. Neuroscience and BCI technologies haven't made any progress since 1940s.
6. Russia or China will sell us 5th generation jet fighters as soon as UN arms embargo ends. Orders will be delivered in dozens a day after signing the deal. lol

 

[Philosopher]

Iran operates many of the AD systems that Syria operates such as S200, S300, BUK M1, Pantsir S-1, etc. What prevents Iran from integrating Khordad 3, Khordad 15 or Bavar-373 with the Syrian air defense to provide its own troops a safe sky at least? Russians are doing that in Syria.

It is not that simple, like I said, those systems are sporadic with no proper command and control. Go in the Iranian air defence thread and you will see how a proper integrated air defence is suppose to look like. Iran can help the Syrians, but like mentioned previously, it will require a serious reformation of their air defence network.

So, what does this stealth jet fighter use for propulsion? J85 perhaps?

J-85 has inadequate thrust, Iran could use its RD-33 from its Migs to test its fighter jet project. We know Iran is developing an engine with 4x the Thrust of the Owj. Regardless of that, we need to wait and see whether Iran will import fighter jet engines from Russia.

I wasn't talking about the pilot being physically present in the plane, which once again proves that you don't read and just spew nonsense for the sake of having said something. I was talking about a pilot inside a bunker controlling a jet fighter with his thoughts as he sits in front of a simulator.

So in this case, communication loss between the manned plane is not important as compared with unmanned systems. What is nonsensical is the question you asked which was:

How do you want to build a 5th generation jet fighter if you are against the idea of wireless communication in the first place?

we were discussing unmanned planes and you suddenly inserted this scenario. Like I said, you're flip flopping.

Conspiracy theories? lol Your time is worthless if you are insisting on something you are totally clueless about with someone who is actually partially involved in it. If anything, you are wasting my time. Not the other way around.

You had said:

"They won't make this sort of research public as it makes mind control possible."

Which is some Alex Jones level conspiracy theory. You start to lose any credibility when you use such argument.

You started insulting first, which proved your desperation. Blaming something you started on others only proves your desperation once more.

Where did I insult you?

1. F16 is obsolete. The only reason that 4,500 F16s are currently operational is because people want to use them against countries with no air defense like Syria.

Strawman argument. I said just because they can be used in such scenarios, it does not mean that are not obsolete as air superiority fighters for a nation like Iran. Many of those F-16 were purchased decades ago. As you can see, Americans will replace their F-16 with the F-35s going forward. The simple question is, how you think an Iranian F-16 like system will fare against an F-35?

2. Wireless communication is vulnerable and hence remote controlling a jet fighter won't happen in the next 3 decades. It is an insane fantasy that clueless people can only imagine it.

I think insanity best describes being under the impression that one can predict the future with any meaningful certainty. If you had noticed, I had said we need to wait and see.

3. Russia or China will sell us turbofan engines with ToT or

Sell, most likely. TOT? Less so.

we will build them on our own from scratch by 2030.

I never said Iran will build such an engine by 2030. I said, Iran will not fly its own fifth generation fighter before 2030s.

4. Buying 20 Venezuelan F16s as a backup plan for a country like Iran with limited options for suppliers is a waste of resources and time.

Yes, because that is not really a "backup".

5. Neuroscience and BCI technologies haven't made any progress since 1940s.

Not to the extend where we can expect to see them utilized in combat craft anytime soon.

6. Russia or China will sell us 5th generation jet fighters as soon as UN arms embargo ends

That is a possibility.

Orders will be delivered in dozens a day after signing the deal. lol

Apparently you are having a discussion with yourself given how many of these so called claims were never made by anyone here. When did I make such a claim?

 

[QWECXZ]

It is not that simple, like I said, those systems are sporadic with no proper command and control. Go in the Iranian air defence thread and you will see how a proper integrated air defence is suppose to look like. Iran can help the Syrians, but like mentioned previously, it will require a serious reformation of their air defence network.

J-85 has inadequate thrust, Iran could use its RD-33 from its Migs to test its fighter jet project. We know Iran is developing an engine with 4x the Thrust of the Owj. Regardless of that, we need to wait and see whether Iran will import fighter jet engines from Russia.

So in this case, communication loss between the manned plane is not important as compared with unmanned systems. What is nonsensical is the question you asked which was:

How do you want to build a 5th generation jet fighter if you are against the idea of wireless communication in the first place?

we were discussing unmanned planes and you suddenly inserted this scenario. Like I said, you're flip flopping.


You had said:

"They won't make this sort of research public as it makes mind control possible."

Which is some Alex Jones level conspiracy theory. You start to lose any credibility when you use such argument.



Where did I insult you?

Strawman argument. I said just because they can be used in such scenarios, it does not mean that are not obsolete as air superiority fighters for a nation like Iran. Many of those F-16 were purchased decades ago. As you can see, Americans will replace their F-16 with the F-35s going forward. The simple question is, how you think an Iranian F-16 like system will fare agains an F-35.


I think insanity described bring under the impression that one can predict the future with any meaningful certainty. If you had noticed, I had said we need to wait and see.

Sell, most likely. TOT? Less so.

I never said Iran will build such an engine by 2030. I said, Iran will not fly its own fifth generation fighter before 2030s.

Yes, because that is not really a "backup".

Not to the extend where we can expect to see them utilized in combat craft anytime soon.

That is a possibility.

Apparently you are having a discussion with yourself given how many of these so called claims were never made by anyone here. When did I make such a claim?

I will just add one point on your "Alex Jones level conspiracy theory". This is the video of a graduate course by the Institute for Cognitive Science Studies in Iran. Click here to watch it (you will have to sign up on Maktabkhooneh -the Iranian version of coursera- if you don't have an account already). Fast forward to 04:07 where he talks about replaying the neuronal activities of a monkey to make him do the same things again and then he talks about the fears of mind control projects and calls them a reality of today.

So, no. It's not "Alex Jones level conspiracy theory". It is a very well-established academic fact that everyone with a background in neuroscience is very well aware of it.

As for the rest of our conversation, even if the UN arms embargo is lifted in September, the best deal we could hope for is a dozen of Su-30s, Mig-29s and maybe Su-35s. How long do you think it will take Russia to deliver our orders considering their history? I'd say that our orders won't be delivered by 2025 at least. Assuming that nothing bad happens and nobody convinces Russia to freeze the deal like previous cases, what kind of jet fighters do you think Israel, Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Turkey will operate by then? Or maybe you have a better plan?

Venezuelans F16s will be cheap which is good for Iran considering that Iran is under sanctions and covid-19 will reduce our GDP growth in future. They will be ready to deliver assuming that there is a way to deliver them. Venezuelans can train our pilots and share their knowledge with us. We may be able to even cooperate with them in some aviation projects.

 

[Philosopher]

I will just add one point on your "Alex Jones level conspiracy theory". This is the video of a graduate course by the Institute for Cognitive Science Studies in Iran. Click here to watch it. Fast forward to 04:07 where he talks about replaying the neuronal activities of a monkey to make him do the same things again and then he talks about the fears of mind control projects.

So, no. It's not "Alex Jones level conspiracy theory". It is a very well-established academic fact.

I am not saying these are pseudo-science, I know they are actual science. What I am saying is we need to wait until these technologies are more mature before seeing them in the likes of combat systems. Will it happen? Yes. But I am not in the businesses of giving dates.

As for the rest of our conversation, even if UN arms embargo is lifted in September, the best deal we could hope for is a dozen of Su-30s, Mig-29s and maybe Su-35s. How long do you think it will take Russia to deliver our orders considering their history? I'd say that our orders won't be delivered by 2025 at least. Assuming that nothing bad happens and nobody convinces Russia to freeze the deal like previous cases, what kind of jet fighters do you think Israel, Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Turkey will operate by then?

Sadly many factors are against Iran. These are:

1) Reliability of Russia
2) Time taken to get delivery of any fighter jets
3) The level of technology Russia is willing to sell
4) Budget Issue

I have said in this forum that I am against purchasing 4th gen++ fighters from Russia. However if Iran got a few dozen or so SU30/35 with TOT (potential in house manufacturing) to use for general purpose roles then I will not be that upset but I will be far happier if I see Iran getting some 5th generation TOT (not very likely). In the end, we have to rely on ourselves. The biggest obstacle we have is a modern Turbofan. If we manage to get technology from Russia or China for this, then that will help Iran a great deal.

Ultimately, we have to just wait and see what happens. Fortunately we may not have to wait that long.

 

[QWECXZ]

I am not saying these are pseudo-science, I know they are actual science. What I am saying is we need to wait until these technologies are more mature before seeing them in the likes of combat systems. Will it happen? Yes. But I am not in the businesses of giving dates.

Sadly many factors are against Iran. These are:

1) Reliability of Russia
2) Time taken to get delivery of any fighter jets
3) The level of technology Russia is willing to sell
4) Budget Issue

I have said in this forum that I am against purchasing 4th gen++ fighters from Russia. However if Iran got a few dozen or so SU30/35 with TOT (potential in house manufacturing) to use for general purpose roles then I will not be that upset but I will be far happier if I see Iran getting some 5th generation TOT (not very likely). In the end, we have to rely on ourselves. The biggest obstacle we have is a modern Turbofan. If we manage to get technology from Russia or China for this, then that will help Iran a great deal.

Ultimately, we have to just wait and see what happens. Fortunately we may not have to wait that long.

You called it "Alex Jones level conspiracy theory"! I'm telling you that even in Iran this sort of technologies are being researched and developed. Why do you think Obama allocated billions of dollars to the BRAIN Initiative under the supervision of DARPA? Obviously, treating diseases like depression, TBI, epileptic seizures, Parkinson's, etc. are just a cover for a huge project like this.

I think you said what we both knew from the beginning, which makes this whole conversation unnecessary. "Many factors are against Iran". A cheap deal with Venezuela to buy its 20 F16s is a good deal for Iran considering the realities that we face today. An upgraded F16 integrated with newer systems that Iran can develop will not be an obsolete jet fighter for us. Even if Iran manages to hack the companies that are involved in the production of turbofan jet engines, materializing it alone without foreign assistance will be a costly project that will take years to bear fruit. And I honestly doubt that China or Russia will come to our assistance.

 

[Philosopher]

You called it "Alex Jones level conspiracy theory"! I'm telling you that even in Iran this sort of technologies are being researched and developed. Why do you think Obama allocated billions of dollars to the BRAIN Initiative under the supervision of DARPA? Obviously, treating diseases like depression, TBI, epileptic seizures, Parkinson's, etc. are just a cover for a huge project like this.

Knowledge is being proliferated and there is nothing anyone can do to stop these technologies from getting out. I suppose the good news is Iran is working on them. As long as we are not falling behind, then it's all good.

I think you said what we both knew from the beginning, which makes this whole conversation unnecessary. "Many factors are against Iran". A cheap deal with Venezuela to buy its 20 F16s is a good deal for Iran considering the realities that we face today. Even if Iran manages to hack companies that are involved in the production of turbofan jet engines, materializing it alone without foreign assistance will be a costly project that will take years to bear fruit. And I honestly doubt that China or Russia will come to our assistance.

I have made my position regarding the F-16's clear. If you see Iran get its hand on these F-16s then notify me and I will happily admit to being proven wrong. However, I don't expect for this situation to come to pass. The benefits of these few F-16s are too small. The route towards an advanced fighter jet project is hard, but that will not stop us. If Iran makes it its goal then it will happen. My personal feeling is that we are more advanced in this field than we think, hopefully we can see that soon. I think if the airforce becomes a little more open regarding its ambitions then people will become more grounded.

 

[QWECXZ]

Knowledge is being proliferated and there is nothing anyone can do to stop these technologies from getting out. I suppose the good news is Iran is working on them. As long as we are not falling behind, then it's all good.

I have made my position regarding the F-16's clear. If you see Iran get its hand on these F-16s then notify me and I will happily admit to being proven wrong. However, I don't expect for this situation to come to pass. The benefits of these few F-16s are too small. The route towards an advanced fighter jet project is hard, but that will not stop us. If Iran makes it its goal then it will happen. My personal feeling is that we are more advanced in this field than we think, hopefully we can see that soon. I think if the airforce becomes a little more open regarding its ambitions then people will become more grounded.

Good. As long as you acknowledge that it's not just conspiracy theory or fantasy we're good. And the future of AI depends on neuroscience and the mathematics of handling big data. Neural networks are gaining a new momentum after people like Geoffrey Hinton and Yoshua Bengio found less computationally expensive algorithms for training them. And neural networks are basically an artificial replication of neurons in our brain. Soon these two subjects (neuroscience and AI/ML) will meet each other and we will have formidable AI for incredibly complex tasks.

Well, the whole thread is based on speculation. We don't know if Venezuela wants to sell its F16s to begin with.

 

[Philosopher]

And the future of AI depends on neuroscience and the mathematics of handling big data. Neural networks are gaining a new momentum after people like Geoffrey Hinton and Yoshua Bengio found less computationally expensive algorithms for training them. And neural networks are basically an artificial replication of neurons in our brain. Soon these two subjects (neuroscience and AI/ML) will meet each other and we will have formidable AI for incredibly complex tasks.

What is the status of AI research in Iran. Is there a serious effort in this fields?

 

[Beny Karachun]

iran already have f-16 .

I think it's a paintjob on an American Aggressor F-16, could be wrong though.

 

[QWECXZ]

What is the status of AI research in Iran. Is there a serious effort in this fields?

As far as I know, we have brilliant students in Iran that understand the recent AI research well enough. I don't know how many of them are approached or employed by the defense industries though. Many of them apply abroad and end up staying there with astronomical salaries.

I remember that a few years ago some students at Sharif received a mysterious phone call from the Presidency Office of Iran asking them if they are interested to work in national projects. I remember a lot of students protested that but that's all I know about that.

 

[Philosopher]

As far as I know, we have brilliant students in Iran that understand the recent AI research well enough. I don't know how many of them are approached or employed by the defense industries though. Many of them apply abroad and end up staying there with astronomical salaries.

I remember that a few years ago some students at Sharif received a mysterious phone call from the Presidency Office of Iran asking them if they are interested to work in national projects. I remember a lot of students protested that but that's all I know about that.

It is essential we have people working actively in this area rigorously. AI, like quantum field is an area Iran must not fall behind in.

Sanctions propel Iran in the global race for terminator-like AI

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blo...an-in-the-global-race-for-terminator-like-ai/

 

[Trango Towers]

Modern wars are not about stomping...have you not noticed that all recent major conflicts were initially won but the the large forces like america and nato but as the protracted resistance increased due to colonial practices the powerful forces resolve was tested and ultimately they failed. Vietnam. Iraq afghanistan to name a few. The russian in afghanistan. I mean I could on

not gonna change a thing, Iran would still be stomped.