What Should be the "ideal" size of the Pakistan Navy in 2020.

[truthseeker2010]

We have three Tripartite class minehunters:

* M166 Munsif (former French M650 Sagittaire)
* M167 Muhafiz (built in France, completed in Pakistan)
* M168 Mujahid (built in Pakistan in 1998)

PNS MUNSIF is second ship of the Pakistan Navy, bearing this name. The first ship was a wooden-hull coastal minesweeper, displacing 315 tons, acquired from U.S Navy in the late fifties under a Military Aid Programme. The ship served as an operational as well as training platform and was paid off in 1979. The present MUNSIF is an ERIDAN class ‘TRIPARTITE MINEHUNTER’, the lead ship of the three minehunters purchased from France.

Her keel was laid on 9 November 1988 and Commissioned in the French Navy as SAGITTAIRE on 28 July 1989. As SAGITTAIRE, she proved her supremacy in minehunting during the Gulf war by locating and neutralizing a record number of 145 mines. Ex SAGITTAIRE was transferred to the Pakistan Navy on 24 September 1992 and commissioned as PNS MUNSIF on 26 October 1992.

The main utilization of the ship is to undertake mine warfare operations for sea ward defence. The ship is capable of carrying out mechanical sweeping and minehunting through state of art equipment.

PNS MUHAFIZ is an Eridan class Mine Hunter, the second of three Mine Hunters purchased from France. The ship was completely built in France. Her keel was laid on 8 Jul 95 and commissioned at Lorient, France on 15 Apr 96. On arrival in Pakistan the ship was formally inducted in the fleet on 18 Sept 96.

PNS MUHAFIZ is fitted with advanced Mine Hunting System. With her highly accurate detection and intervention system, PNS MUHAFIZ can detect and neutralize all types of underwater mines. Special design features have been employed in the construction of this vessel to ensure low magnetic and acoustic signatures. Ship is currently operational and is efficient unit of AuxMin squadron.

PNS MUJAHID is an Eridan class Mine hunter, built at PN Dockyard Karachi with the assistance of DCN Lorient. PNS MUJAHID is the first ever indigenously built Eridan class Mine Hunter. The ship was commissioned on 9 July 1998.

Owing to advanced Mine Hunting System. With her highly accurate detection and intervention system, PNS MUJAHID can detect and neutralize all types of underwater mines. Special design features have been employed in the construction of this vessel to ensure low magnetic and acoustic signatures. Ship is currently operational and after extensive duties in the last operational season is looking forward to fulfill PN future deployment.

 

[fatman17]

Do you happen to have any info on the class ?

i knew u were going to ask thisEridan class

 

[Jigs]

We have three Tripartite class minehunters:

* M166 Munsif (former French M650 Sagittaire)
* M167 Muhafiz (built in France, completed in Pakistan)
* M168 Mujahid (built in Pakistan in 1998)

PNS MUNSIF is second ship of the Pakistan Navy, bearing this name. The first ship was a wooden-hull coastal minesweeper, displacing 315 tons, acquired from U.S Navy in the late fifties under a Military Aid Programme. The ship served as an operational as well as training platform and was paid off in 1979. The present MUNSIF is an ERIDAN class ‘TRIPARTITE MINEHUNTER’, the lead ship of the three minehunters purchased from France.

Her keel was laid on 9 November 1988 and Commissioned in the French Navy as SAGITTAIRE on 28 July 1989. As SAGITTAIRE, she proved her supremacy in minehunting during the Gulf war by locating and neutralizing a record number of 145 mines. Ex SAGITTAIRE was transferred to the Pakistan Navy on 24 September 1992 and commissioned as PNS MUNSIF on 26 October 1992.

The main utilization of the ship is to undertake mine warfare operations for sea ward defence. The ship is capable of carrying out mechanical sweeping and minehunting through state of art equipment.

PNS MUHAFIZ is an Eridan class Mine Hunter, the second of three Mine Hunters purchased from France. The ship was completely built in France. Her keel was laid on 8 Jul 95 and commissioned at Lorient, France on 15 Apr 96. On arrival in Pakistan the ship was formally inducted in the fleet on 18 Sept 96.

PNS MUHAFIZ is fitted with advanced Mine Hunting System. With her highly accurate detection and intervention system, PNS MUHAFIZ can detect and neutralize all types of underwater mines. Special design features have been employed in the construction of this vessel to ensure low magnetic and acoustic signatures. Ship is currently operational and is efficient unit of AuxMin squadron.

PNS MUJAHID is an Eridan class Mine hunter, built at PN Dockyard Karachi with the assistance of DCN Lorient. PNS MUJAHID is the first ever indigenously built Eridan class Mine Hunter. The ship was commissioned on 9 July 1998.

Owing to advanced Mine Hunting System. With her highly accurate detection and intervention system, PNS MUJAHID can detect and neutralize all types of underwater mines. Special design features have been employed in the construction of this vessel to ensure low magnetic and acoustic signatures. Ship is currently operational and after extensive duties in the last operational season is looking forward to fulfill PN future deployment.

Thanks for the info

 

[Jigs]

i knew u were going to ask thisEridan class

I was wondering if they were the same class as the Turkish navy ones. They are however not. I was thinking maybe Pakistan could induct them as we are looking to retire them since we got new ones from Germany.

They are the upgraded Circe class and are quite capable after the PAP plus upgrade and we operate 5 so that would boost your capability quite a bit.

 

[fatman17]

Fits in nicely with what we r discussung!


The forgotten sea frontier

Taj M Khattak

Saturday, January 29, 2011

In an unprecedented development, Russia recently signed a deal to procure at least two of France’s advanced Mistral-class amphibious warships at an estimated cost of $750 millions each, with option for two more. Ordinarily, this should be of no interest to Pakistan, were it not for the near-synchronous timing of an Akula II nuclear-powered Indian submarine sailing for Vishakhapatnam in the weeks ahead; if the voyage is not already underway, that is, since such movements are always shrouded in secrecy. India is expected to receive one more Akula II submarine to train its crews, for a total of five nuclear submarines. The indigenous production of two more Arihant-class submarines in the near future is also on the cards.

The submarine bound for Vishakhapatnam, INS Chakra, has been undergoing sea trials for some time and its ten-year lease period, with a purchase option, has reportedly been agreed at a cost of $650 millions. This Russian-Indian-French defence nexus has been dubbed by some analysts as Russia’s newest “sell-in-the-east-and-buy-in-the-west” strategy. Russia views Indian ambitions to sortie out into blue waters as a seller’s paradise for its hardware, and France, with its double-digit unemployment and doubts about long-term sustainment of its defence industry, as a willing supplier of modern sea platforms.

This fits in well with Russia’s desire to reorientate its Cold War-era maritime paradigm of deploying a large number of nuclear submarines in the Atlantic and Pacific oceans, to investment in more practical rapid-response intervention capabilities, such as those successfully employed by the US over the years.

The Indian navy has an ambitious expansion plan of having 166 ships by 2022, at a cost of $12 billions. Its Naval Aviation is already operating BAE’s Harriers and is further being equipped with Boeing’s P-8 Poseidon MMA (multimission maritime aircraft), which is a successor to P3C Orions. For conventional submarines, it has been operating the Russian Foxtrot-class vessels with some German 209s, and of late has signed on for the French Scorpions. Its surface fleet and maintenance support structure are Russian to the core and are likely to remain so. There have been some calls for the cancellation of the Scorpion contract because of allegations of $113 millions in kickbacks, but the corrupt across the border too appear to be managing the din well.

The Pakistani navy has historically maintained an edge over the Indian navy in submarine warfare. But with a sizable number of newer Russian nuclear and French conventional submarines in the Indian fleet, this edge may not be maintainable; more so as the first of the Pakistani navy’s Agosta submarines reaches its midlife in 2013-14, and the other two will reach theirs by the end of the decade.

There has been slippage in timely replacements of our fast-depleting subsurface assets; not least because the preferred German three-submarines option was way beyond our financial affordability. But nor is the status quo tolerable, as this important maritime defence capability, structured so painstakingly over four decades, cannot be allowed to wither away.

Rather than for us to lose more precious time, one option which merits serious consideration by Pakistan is revival of collaboration with France for the construction of a fourth Agosta-90B submarine at the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works. There was a significant indigenous capability installed at the KSEW during the execution of this programme, a capability which would go to waste and skilled manpower degenerate if not put to further use. On the downside, if Sarkozy and Zardari have to deal with such an idea twice in their political careers, well, that is fate.

The Amazon-class frigates in service with the Pakistani navy, acquired from the UK in the ‘90s, are nearly 40 years old. The Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates currently under transfer from the US under an FMS programme are also over 30 years old. Unless there are more additions, the four Chinese-built F-22P frigates supported by some lower tonnage vessels with over-the-horizon missile capability will, in all likelihood, fall well short of a minimum force structure required for protection of our seaborne commerce and maritime assets, including under-the-seabed exploration and exploitation of hydrocarbons and metals in the EEZ. On the other hand, the Indian navy’s goals for 2022, helped by India’s stable politics and a performing economy, appear realisable.

The Pakistani navy is presently participating in the US-led Combined Task Forces (CTF 150, 151 and 152), and quite rightly so, if we are to remain in contention in the region. This, however, is not without the dilemma of our utilising valuable national assets in an international effort. The blue water navies of the developed world have built-in extra-regional potential and stamina, unlike the navies of the developing countries. Any overstretch with blue-water horses in CTFs has therefore to be watched, since some day we will have run our own Derby, and, more importantly, will win.

To compound our difficulties, we are beset with a serious ongoing insurgency. The 1948-1960 insurgency by the Communist Party of Malaya is usually taken as a datum for longevity of wars against the state, as it lasted for 12 years. The LTTE’s movement in Sri Lanka died down after nearly 25 years. In Pakistan, judging by the tenacity of the enemy within, we may similarly be in for a long haul.

This growing disparity and our apparent helplessness to do something tangible about it is a source of concern. Our political system is far from stable and courts failure to inspire the confidence of foreign investors. Without foreign investment economic progress will remain elusive, and this means that our financial strength will be insufficient for generation of the kind of resources required for a planned naval replacement programme.

Energy security in the 21st century is likely to remain a key concern for both the developed and developing economies. China and Japan, to cite one example, are jointly putting up $25 billions to build a navigational canal through southern Thailand, which will obviate the need for oil tankers to steam through the pirates-infested Malacca Straits.

Gwadar can play a crucial role in Pakistan’s energy security in this century. The Chinese petroleum ministry has surplus capacity and is looking at Gwadar for any possibility for investment in view of the special relationship between the two states. China has other interests too, as the distance between its more developed eastern region and the less developed western region is greater than that between the Chinese west and Gwadar. The differential is causing demographic dislocation, and China wants to take advantage of Gwadar’s proximity to speed up development and stem the population surge to its east.

Let us hope that there is an early decision in the Supreme Court on the petition for cancellation of management control to the Port of Singapore Authority (PSA) which, shorn of corporate jargon, establishes a baseline throughput roughly the equivalent of 21 ships calling per week before any royalty can be paid to the Gwadar Port Authority. The PSA has also not yet started the contractual $525 millions investment which is to be completed by 2013. How one wishes the Pakistani negotiators of this deal were a little bit sincere with the country.

If the contract is cancelled, Pakistan should seriously and expeditiously engage China on its interest to invest up to $13 billion in such areas as increase in Gwadar Port’s existing berths from three to 18, building of an oil pipeline between Xinjiang and Gwadar to set up an energy corridor, development of a 21-million-tons capacity Gwadar Port Energy Zone, setting up of an energy-sector industries in this zone and oil and gas exploration ventures.

If this was an academic debate, there would be no issue losing out to the predominant landlubbers’ lobby in the country, but the ramifications of ignoring Pakistan’s maritime frontier go far beyond and are too grave to neglect. It will be unfortunate if in the 21st century, Japan and China, and even India, have secure seaborne energy lifelines, while Pakistan, in spite of Gwadar’s strategic location just 180 miles east of the Strait of Hormuz, remains vulnerable for its energy needs. There is enough common cause in Gwadar to work with China for mutual benefits. Let’s go for it.



The write is a retired vice admiral. Email: tajkhattak@ymail.com

 

[Aamir Hussain]

We need some serious debate on this article. The author has opened debate on issues we have been deliberating in this thread. Good post fatman17.

My view on the Submarine issues:

upgrade existing platforms to MESMA
Go for atleast two more Agosta 90B -- in country mfg.
Negotiate for Marlin
Try to get Chinese boats with MESMA

My 2C worth

 

[Penguin]

I was wondering if they were the same class as the Turkish navy ones. They are however not. I was thinking maybe Pakistan could induct them as we are looking to retire them since we got new ones from Germany.

They are the upgraded Circe class and are quite capable after the PAP plus upgrade and we operate 5 so that would boost your capability quite a bit.

They are what in Europe is known as the tripartite minehunter program, a cooperative program of the Dutch, Belgian and French navies.

Tripartite class minehunter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the Dutch navy, the ships are known as the Alkmaar class, in the French navy they form the Eridan class, and in the Belgian navy they are the "CMT" for Chasseur de Mines Tripartite, sometimes called the "Flower" class and sometimes Bellis class.

As for 'exports', besides the ships that ended up in PN service, ships of this class have ended up with the navies of Bulgaria, Indonesia and Latvia

Shps remaining in dutch service (10, of original 15) have been modernized and are now equipped like this:

Hull Mounted Sonar (HMS) TUS Mk 2022
Self Propelled Variable Depth Sonar (SPVDS) Saab/Bofors Double Eagle MkIII with TUS (Thales Undewater Systems) Mk 2022 sonar
C2 systeem ATLAS electronics Integrated Mine Counter Measures System (IMCMS)

3 x .50 hmg

Mine Identification and Diposal System Seafox C/I (ATLAS), comprising
* Seafox-C (Combat) (expendible wireguided ROV / mine)
* Seafox-I (Identification) (Reusable wirdeguided ROV)
OR:
Poisson Auto Propulsé (PAP)

Mine clearance divers

http://www.defensie.nl/english/navy/materiel/ships/minehunters
http://www.defensie.nl/onderwerpen/materieel/schepen/mijnenjagers

French and Belgian classes have seen similar upgrades (PAM -Project Adaptation Minehunters):
http://www.thales-electrondevices.c...PR_handover1st_upgraded_tripartiteminehunter/
http://www.faqs.org/abstracts/Milit...ite-minehunters-set-for-joint-evaluation.html

 

[truthseeker2010]

Sir 166 ships for $12 billion by 2022, isn't that two low, if this is correct than in accordance with our minimum credible deterrence policy.... we need 50 ships costing around $4 billion which is a high possibility by 2020 or 2022.
On the other hand my information suggests around $40 billion for 160 ships so with that we will need at least $10 billion which is not likely in current situation. But if we revive our economy and increase the share of Navy. It is also reachable.

 

[Archie]

Sir 166 ships for $12 billion by 2022, isn't that two low, if this is correct than in accordance with our minimum credible deterrence policy.... we need 50 ships costing around $4 billion which is a high possibility by 2020 or 2022.
On the other hand my information suggests around $40 billion for 160 ships so with that we will need at least $10 billion which is not likely in current situation. But if we revive our economy and increase the share of Navy. It is also reachable.

Dude , u are correct in highlighting this error in the article

However while India wants to operate 166 Ships and 18-20 Subs by 2022
It Doesnot mean that india will acquire 160+ Ships ,
Today we have 140 Surface ships and 14 Subs

As far as surface ships are concerned , around 50 will retire by 2022 while some 73 Ships would be inducted to replace them at the cost of 30 Billion USD
As far as Subs are concerned , 10 of the present 14 subs would retire by 2022 , these would be replaced by 6 scorpenes + 5-6 Akula II/Arihant class Nuclear subs , these subs are already in production , with GOI having already allocated 10 Billion USD for a second line of Diesel Electric subs

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

it will be inshallah
2 0hps [possibly upgraded like g class frigates of turkish navy]
4 f22p
4 milgem class stealth corvette
4-6 type 54a
3 mine hunters
10 facs
20+ messile boats
10 Auxiliaries
12 griffon howercrafts
6 opv
6 qing class subs
3 agosta 90b
2 agosta 70 upgraded
8 midjet subs
40 helicopters
naval aviation
40 helicopters
32 mirage 5
50+ jf17
3 orien awacs
10 p3c oriens
7 Fokker F27-200 Friendship – maritime surveillance aircraft
2 Breguet Atlantique I
4 Hawker 850 – VIP transport aircraft

 

[aziqbal]

does anyone know the names and numbers of all the Jalalat class missiles boats PN has>?

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

does anyone know the names and numbers of all the Jalalat class missiles boats PN has>?

there r four
P1023 PNS Jurrat
P1028 PNS Quwwat
P1022 PNS Jalalat
P1024 PNS Shujat

 

[aziqbal]

Thanks Wasm95!

 

[Pakistanisage]

What should be the ideal size of Pakistan Navy in terms of equipment in the next 10 years. Taking in the view of the Naval build up in the region and also our own strategic position in the area. How can Pakistan Navy play its role of not only securing the sea lines of communication of Pakistan but also provide a lethal deterrent to anyone posing a threat to Pakistan's National interest's by sea. Please be realistic in your assumptions taking into account the current economic situation and also the future economic size of Pakistan.

The size of Pakistan Navy is determined by its " Naval Doctrine ". Pakistan has no aspirations of becoming a BLUE WATER NAVY, and as such its Assets must reflect that. Pakistan is on the right track in line with its Brown Water Naval strategy. The idea is not to have Aircraft carriers or large destroyers, but concentrate on building a sub surface Naval Assets that will be a huge threat to a Blue Water Navy. Instead of investing in an Aircraft Carrier, Pakistan should invest money in Systems that will bring down an Enemy ACC which would be a huge loss to the enemy and demoralize the enemy completely.

 

[regular]

At least we shold have 10 advanced Quing class subz within our PN fleet with super stealth cruise missiles range min 2500km speed 3.0 macs at least....Insha-Allah....