What role could PAF have played in the Kargil war??

[AUz]

Correction : India is a 2.4 Trillion dollar economy

So basically in the similar economic conditions as Pakistan on per capita basis..

 

[Genghis khan1]

Then can you give me the reason why PAF was hiding when IAF was pounding bombs to helpless NLI infantry.
And if you are giving a past example i would like to quote only one example i.e Siachin.
.

PAF didn't participate because Pakistan wasn't even admitting his troops or anyone officially crossed into Indian side. I still remember Nawaz sharif saying on TV address at the end of Kargil conflict that I requested mujahedeen to withdraw so that we can resolve Kashmir with talks. PTV even played videos of " Kashmiri mujahideen" standing in trees claiming we are withdrawing on NS request and blah blah.

 

[Genghis khan1]

what was the bloody need of the kargil war? before going for war aims are set. what we want to achieve ? how we will achieve?

Aim was to take Indian side of no man's land, Kargil tops, just like Indian did in 1984 on Siachen. Kargil would have given PA direct access to light up Indian supply route Highway 1D to Siachen. Hence forcing them to withdraw. Siachen tops gives Indians good position to use Indirect fire into GB area of Pakistan. Plan was superb, and was nothing new, has been brought forward to Gen. Zia ul haq after Indian adventure in Siachen. But Zia ul haq refused cuz Pakistan was already into Afghan-Soviet mess and it would have started a new war.

Moving forward, Paramilitary NLI took Kargil tops, sucked in additional 200,000 IA, IAF and main Artillery batteries that suppose to be defending Indian Punjab. While PA formation were totally intact. A major tactical victory. India responded with everything they got. As per Sandy Berger (Clinton Administration National Security advisor) Vajpayee sent letter to clinton, saying that IA is taking way too many casualties and there is lot of domestic pressure on me to open up a full scale war. Clinton called, Nawaz sharif, play diplomatic bluff of two statements for press release and NS fall for it. Pakistan withdrew but not all the way. Highest peak 5353 and 2 others are still under Pakistan control and they can still light up all the lower Indian post at will.

so at the end, Pakistan gained the strategic heights can still light up 1D with Indirect fire.

I do agree, Musharraf should have consulted with Airforce and Naval chiefs for their preparedness in case of war or could have postpose this adventure till Air Force and Navy made their preparations. They way NS had more spine to stand up to Clinton pressure.

 

[aliyusuf]

Aim was to take Indian side of no man's land, Kargil tops, just like Indian did in 1984 on Siachen. Kargil would have given PA direct access to light up Indian supply route Highway 1D to Siachen. Hence forcing them to withdraw. Siachen tops gives Indians good position to use Indirect fire into GB area of Pakistan. Plan was superb, and was nothing new, has been brought forward to Gen. Zia ul haq after Indian adventure in Siachen. But Zia ul haq refused cuz Pakistan was already into Afghan-Soviet mess and it would have started a new war.

Moving forward, Paramilitary NLI took Kargil tops, sucked in additional 200,000 IA, IAF and main Artillery batteries that suppose to be defending Indian Punjab. While PA formation were totally intact. A major tactical victory. India responded with everything they got. As per Sandy Berger (Clinton Administration National Security advisor) Vajpayee sent letter to clinton, saying that IA is taking way too many casualties and there is lot of domestic pressure on me to open up a full scale war. Clinton called, Nawaz sharif, play diplomatic bluff of two statements for press release and NS fall for it. Pakistan withdrew but not all the way. Highest peak 5353 and 2 others are still under Pakistan control and they can still light up all the lower Indian post at will.

so at the end, Pakistan gained the strategic heights can still light up 1D with Indirect fire.

I do agree, Musharraf should have consulted with Airforce and Naval chiefs for their preparedness in case of war or could have postpose this adventure till Air Force and Navy made their preparations. They way NS had more spine to stand up to Clinton pressure.

A fair assessment. Nice post.

 

[Hellfire]

Quite right! It's good to see how accurately this has been kept in mind. Thank you very much indeed.

Add on to your comments so far - the Mi 17 which was shot down was being fitted with IR countermeasures (Indian Mi-17s were under process of upgradation of Flare Conter measures from Israel in that time) and was pulled in at the last minute as the heli which was to go in the original flight was pulled out due to technical snag.

Due to the pressing requirement of close in air support due to an impending attack by own forces, the decision was taken by Flt Lt Muhilan and Sqn Ldr Pundhir to take the heli bereft of the counter measures and they planned to ensure that the flight of 4 helis went as scheduled for support of the attacking troops.

They had planned for remaining in cover of the remaining three helis which were equipped with the flare counter measures .... but due to the salvos of MANPADs streaming at them and the evasive measures by the advance helis, there was a gap created wherein this heli got exposed

And the rest ---- as it is said, is history!!!

 

[ravi gupta]

Aim was to take Indian side of no man's land, Kargil tops, just like Indian did in 1984 on Siachen. Kargil would have given PA direct access to light up Indian supply route Highway 1D to Siachen. Hence forcing them to withdraw. Siachen tops gives Indians good position to use Indirect fire into GB area of Pakistan. Plan was superb, and was nothing new, has been brought forward to Gen. Zia ul haq after Indian adventure in Siachen. But Zia ul haq refused cuz Pakistan was already into Afghan-Soviet mess and it would have started a new war.

Moving forward, Paramilitary NLI took Kargil tops, sucked in additional 200,000 IA, IAF and main Artillery batteries that suppose to be defending Indian Punjab. While PA formation were totally intact. A major tactical victory. India responded with everything they got. As per Sandy Berger (Clinton Administration National Security advisor) Vajpayee sent letter to clinton, saying that IA is taking way too many casualties and there is lot of domestic pressure on me to open up a full scale war. Clinton called, Nawaz sharif, play diplomatic bluff of two statements for press release and NS fall for it. Pakistan withdrew but not all the way. Highest peak 5353 and 2 others are still under Pakistan control and they can still light up all the lower Indian post at will.

so at the end, Pakistan gained the strategic heights can still light up 1D with Indirect fire.

I do agree, Musharraf should have consulted with Airforce and Naval chiefs for their preparedness in case of war or could have postpose this adventure till Air Force and Navy made their preparations. They way NS had more spine to stand up to Clinton pressure.

Very Balanced and informative post.
However also advice all the Pakistani poster also that all the previous wars was started by Pakistan to achieve some strategic goals.
And India as a country is not aggressor,which they claim.

 

[Genghis khan1]

independent Pakistani sources claimed the figures to be between 1000-4000.

..and who are these independent Pakistani sources. Most of Pakistani post were manned by 6 to 22 troops, Whereas Indian were attacking with 200 to 600 troops. Indians were charging up hill, for Pakistanis it was a duck shoot until either their weapon get jammed or they run out of ammo.

 

[war&peace]

Pak in the past and even now has limited resources so all Pak immigrants from West/USA should send funds for PAF.

Sir, why it has to be us overseas Pakistan always to send money to Pakistan and if you check we are already sending billions of dollars every year more than any aide or loans your govt gets on disgraceful terms....and in return, we overseas Pakistanis get, no right to vote, disgraceful behaviours and extra fee at airports, high call rates, if we buy property, there is fraud ...and it is not at all a bed of roses here...and we have to work very hard here, brave different kinds of conditions and problens you never face in Pakistan. Please get a life and focus on the corrupt govts and politcians who earn from and rob Pakistan and invest offshore ... NS and his ugly offsprings. Still if you arrest these corrupt insects, we will send even more but you have get your home in order first. No intention to offend or hurt anyones feeling but just to present some truths and I know truth hurts a bit but if you think with a cool mind, you will realise there is some wisdom in it.

 

[Signalian]

do you have any idea how many F-16s PAF had during the kargil conflict? around 34 without any spares. after the initial deployment of the F-16s in kargil due to the shortage of the spares the number of sorties were reduced to a great extent.
PA started the 65 war on 1st sep 65. about 1 division army invaded into kashmir with the mentality that india will not respond and it will be a local war. PAF chief at that time advised ayub khan not to do this misadventure as it will lead to a full scale war but ayub was blinded by his foriegn minister bhutto. after shastri announced that we will open a war zone of our own choice the PA was totally not ready for this.that's why they call lahore attack a surprise. i think they were waiting for a letter from delhi that we are attacking lahore stop us if you can. in the book "battle for pakistan" the author John fricker has mentioned that PAF was the only force fully ready to fight a full scale war. the indian planning of opening the international border till thar desert worked and PA failed to make any significant dent in the enemy forces. according to some sources we lost more territory . PAF was victorious and it was a draw on ground. the operation grand slam was halted at a crucial phase due to selfish mentality of the army hierarchy.
in 71 who was the leader of the pakistan. yahya khan who was notorious for his character qualities. mujeeb ur rahman and bhutto did their best to break up pakistan but the leadership was of army and we made history. india only set the stage for war and it was yahya khan to start the war. PAF at least inflicted more damage to IAF and had 3 to 1 kill ratio against the IAF.
now come to kargil. another example of poor planning by PA. a useless conflict that could have been easily avoided. the most amazing thing was that the PA ( which never won a war before) thought they could win at their own without informing paf and pn. no doubt the PA achieved surprise over the indians but when the india responded PA had no where to go. we were humiliated internationally even china did not supported us. no one has ever been able to answer a simple question. what was the bloody need of the kargil war? before going for war aims are set. what we want to achieve ? how we will achieve? what are our reserves? what are our capabilities? what is the economic status of our country? will our economy sustain a war? will we be able to stop the blockage of karachi port in war? none of these questions were taken into consideration during the kargil conflict. so we gained nothing at all from kargil and it was pure non sense.
on this website people like to portray PA as bunch of angles and put all the blames on politicians. but we should be neutral in our assessment. politicians have done a lot of damage but we should give the "credit of damage" to everyone where it is due.


that blog is written by air commodore R kaiser tufail. one of the most famous PAF F-16 pilot who played major role in the development, evaluation, induction of the F-7 PG into PAF. he is definitely the authority regarding the PAF's operations in kargil.

By reading your post its obvious you have no idea what you are talking about.

I would take on words of a serving general still as PAF was not included in the planning phase.

Then can you give me the reason why PAF was hiding when IAF was pounding bombs to helpless NLI infantry.
And if you are giving a past example i would like to quote only one example i.e Siachin.


Yes naaa,if they participated i dont know what scare them,that they where hiding.

Do some research, you will know. Its not rocket science

 

[litman]

By reading your post its obvious you have no idea what you are talking about.

I would take on words of a serving general still as PAF was not included in the planning phase.

this is the non sense on part of PA i am talking about in my previous posts and you are bent upon defending this non sense.

 

[Signalian]

this is the non sense on part of PA i am talking about in my previous posts and you are bent upon defending this non sense.

Mate, thank the Lord that PAF didnt show up, rest is history

 

[Alpha Fighter]

Well, its True tht PAF was not included in the planning phase:-

A) PA was confidednt that IAF wont be doing bombing in such a great height and for choppers we have the stingers.
B) on the Hight commnding position , its is impossible to get defeated.
C) PA has to hold for 5-10 days those Height and then US / china will make mediation and ceasefire after PAK raise Nuke Bogiee.


Whatever happened after that is History.


A) PAF don't have BVR in their F-16,
B) Half of F-16 is non-working condition due to spares crunch.
C) F-16 are sitting ducks as IAF is armed with BVR's.

PAF done few petrol for 3-4 days after that PAF didn't flyed any F-16 because they are facing very shortage of spare parts and want to save F-16 flying condition in case of war.

 

[Signalian]

If we exclude the fanboy enthusiasm, there is only a set of bellicose statements, no analysis, no figures, nothing.

1. In which one in particular? It did not plan for 47-48; if it did plan, there was nothing much to show for it. The Army's place-holders, the Gilgit Scouts under Major Brown, massacred the local Dogra and Sikh soldiers of the Maharaja, and swept through Baltistan, taking first Skardu and then Kargil, finally besieging Leh. Zero involvement of the Pakistan Army. These marauders beat hasty retreats when confronted by the regular Indian Army.
   Where the Pakistan Army did get involved, it did not exactly cover itself with glory. Poonch was recovered, the present shape and location of the border took shape, and it has not been disturbed since, except to take possession of the Siachen Glacier locations.
2. You mentioned the Rann of Kutch incident. Presumably you are already aware that the Pakistan Army faced only border police, who were
3. If you don't mind my pointing out the events of 1965 do not really point to much by way of planning. The disastrous insertion of special forces detachments and their slaughter, the subsequent decision to open up another front in Jammu, which was very well planned at divisional level, and which planning was completely undone by a lunatic change of leadership in mid-battle, neither of these shows much by way of planning.
4. Perhaps you are talking of the subsequent hostilities, across the international border. Good planning does not presumably include allowing your officers to go on leave days before an anticipated attack. Yet that is what happened. It sounds singularly stupid to tell us about the excellent planning that resulted in this debacle. As for the fighting, while the Gadag Gallop showed us that both sets of superior commanders were equally stupid, the massive defeat at Asal Uttar should have lodged even in the inflamed recesses of a fanboy 'mind'. But presumably that defeat was also carefully planned.
5. If there is any other outbreak of fighting that you wish to talk about, do speak up.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. Perhaps those dark vegan buttholes riveted their gaze and their attention until it was too late.

loads of BS as usual.

Anyways the first point to understand is that planning is different from implementation. Resources, timing, training, weather, change in events etc are other factors that can weigh in. When we get this basic point straight, we can move ahead, till then you are just wasting my time.

 

[litman]

Very Balanced and informative post.
However also advice all the Pakistani poster also that all the previous wars was started by Pakistan to achieve some strategic goals.
And India as a country is not aggressor,which they claim.

india didnt invade kashmir against the wishes of people in 48
india carried out the referendum in kashmir as per the resolution of UN
india didnt invade runn kuch
india did not arm and train mukti bahni
india did not invade siachin
india is not involved in sabotage in baluchistan, gwader, CPEC and karachi
kalbhoshan yadav is not indian,
indian consulates in afghanistan are not training TTP.

 

[Tps43]

PAF was involved in kargil war but after knew kargil was started PAF was involved as a defence force not as a agrassor but the point is there should had been a cordination with the sister forces regarding kargil that is why I prefer a fully operation and a fully authorize CJSC