What role could PAF have played in the Kargil war??

[Joe Shearer]

Fortunately, for at least one of us, my upbringing restricts me to give a likewise reply to the aged and infirm.

Got it. When you are getting your own way, insulting your way through the opposition, all is fine in love and war. When you are getting tanned, it's because your innate chivalry and good manners prevents you from - what was it? - giving 'a likewise reply to the aged and infirm'.

Nice formula. A little cowardly, but that's OK, discretion being the better part of valour for all young Britons.

Although we dared not indulged in such ill mannered acts before our guardians

At last. A plausible explanation for your current behaviour. Making up for lost time, eh?

however some students do resort to such when they feel a certain teacher ideally belongs in a circus or something.

This teacher belongs to a circus, for sure. How else would he learn to handle the weird collection that comes his way? If you weren't in a circus, they wouldn't need a circus-friendly teacher, would they?

So dear teacher help me out here, if your claims of PAF grounded are correct then one wonders, if the story of Fulcrums buzzing Falcons was merely created to keep the spark in Agni Pankh....or maybe the Indian pilots using their Ayurvedic technology secretly visited PAF hangars.

Neither.

Try not to hide behind literalism. Grounded didn't mean they didn't fly at all. It means that they didn't take part.

So you bought some bombs, loaded them, used two and hey presto the Pakistanis were obliterated, hope you don't swallow your tongue but hell even above technology can't compete with that.

What happened? You didn't read the analyst's report? It was there in clear print. Want it again (I love rubbing your face in your own doo-doo, Windy)? Here it is:

Singh, Himalayan Eagles: History of the Indian Air Force, Volume III: World Air Power, 125, reported that the IAF delivered a total of nine laser-guided bombs against enemy targets during the Kargil war, eight by Mirage 2000Hs and one by a Jaguar. The air commander for the campaign, however, distinctly recalls that only two were expended in toto, both against the target complex on Tiger Hill. In his words, “we could not find a suitable target for more such attacks. For the more spreadout interdiction targets, well-directed 1,000-pound [unguided] bombs were the weapon of choice.” (E-mail communication to the author by Air Marshal Vinod Patney, IAF [ret.], August 2, 2012.) Either way, what matters most here is not the total count, but the fact that the use of laser-guided bombs during the Kargil campaign was a significant and militarily effective combat first for the IAF.

Read more at: http://carnegieendowment.org/2012/09/20/airpower-at-18-000-indian-air-force-in-kargil-war#

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/what-rol...n-the-kargil-war.433299/page-15#ixzz4B1ctBgpk

Now, instead of prancing around pretending to understand aerial ordnance and its uses, why don't you ask the airmen on the forum?

To be fair, we never found any trailers outside PAF bases.

Do you spend all your time monitoring PAF bases? Who minds the shop while you're doing that? Or were you using the corporate 'we'? You and the ISPR in close combat formation, both winding away?

I sincerely hope they count their kidneys afterwards.

Why don't you sincerely ask them? There've been enough of them for you to locate a couple of hundred and check how many kidneys they have left and how many they started with?

And i always assumed that Pakistanis were generally regarded as healthier compared to their Indian counterparts (No offence to the undernourished Indian backsides) maybe that's the reason those Bangladeshi prefer to kick the Indians elsewhere.

http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl1809/18090220.htm

Ah, the Bangladeshis come in, because this well-endowed backside can't cut it alone. They might have something to say about a Pakistani telling them what to do, but that never stopped you, did it, Windopher?

So after the PAF was grounded, our army is now exhausted, hell, the fatigue should be taking it's tall and the frustrated soldiers should be repeating that Full Metal Jacket scene we often hear from across the border, three in last week alone, but then according to you, it's the Indian police, all the several hundred thousand of them in IOK.
Oh look most of your class is sticking their tongues out. !!!!

Heh. Good. Now we revert to your natural state. Shifting rapidly away from whatever was formerly under discussion - at least you are consistent in your evasions, Windobert.

 

[ssethii]

Facts. Only facts.

omg, what did I just read.
you write satirical comments containing propaganda at best. You try to sell the idea that PA is an evil organisation in the way of peace between two nations. Which actually is the product of Indian thinking that India is the boss in this region so might is right i.e Indian propaganda against ISI/PA is true.
You talk about the legality Indian occupation of Kashmir yet you deliberately overlook the two examples of Junagarh and Hyderabad.
You talk about the terrorism across border in Kashmir and overlook the Indian role in 1971 war.
Similarly in this thread you are mocking us about Kargil war and it never occurred to you that PA could have reacted the same way in 1984 if they wanted escalation. Yet you have the decency to lecture us that each time we started the war instead and IA is shadow of angels on earth?
Yes we may have lost in achieving the objectives but I'm proud that our soldiers dare to put up a bloody fight each time against an unmatched opponent and I have no doubt they will continue to do so until their objectives are met.

I stop indulging in debate with people when I realize trying to change their traditional thoughts are as difficult as making them work after superannuation..

 

[Joe Shearer]

omg, what did I just read.
you write satirical comments containing propaganda at best. You try to sell the idea that PA is an evil organisation in the way of peace between two nations. Which actually is the product of Indian thinking that India is the boss in this region so might is right i.e Indian propaganda against ISI/PA is true.

I do not sell the idea that the PA is an evil organisation. Actually, I do not sell any ideas at all; I have other ways of making a living.

But yes, I do think that the leadership of the PA is part of the Pakistani deep state, and I do think that the Pakistani deep state is a destabilising influence in south Asia. It needs to be sorted out, and the only people who can do that are the Pakistani people.

And no, I do not think that India is the boss in this regioin, or that might is right. On the contrary, I believe in the rule of law, and in constitutionalism.

You talk about the legality Indian occupation of Kashmir yet you deliberately overlook the two examples of Junagarh and Hyderabad.

That shows that you don't spend too much time on PDF. In fact, pitifully little. If that weren't true, you'd have known that I've written prolifically on the issues of Junagadh and of Hyderabad. Pity. You might have learnt a lot, besides how to splutter at the wrong time about the wrong things.

You talk about the terrorism across border in Kashmir and overlook the Indian role in 1971 war.

When did I overlook the Indian role in the 1971 war? You obviously don't have a clue.

Similarly in this thread you are mocking us about Kargil war and it never occurred to you that PA could have reacted the same way in 1984 if they wanted escalation.

In 1984? Are you serious? What could you have done in 1984 that you did not try and fail to achieve? Where is the comparison?

What exactly could the PA have done? Just 13 years after getting whacked hard?

Yet you have the decency to lecture us that each time we started the war instead and IA is shadow of angels on earth?

Why not?

In 1984, the Indian Army took over places where the Pakistan Army had never been before. It went where there was no demarcation of the LOC. It went there as the Army, not some clandestine bunch who didn't exist in fact, and who were created to try and fool the world, as the Pakistan deep state always has been to do.

In 1999, the Pakistan army went into the Indian side of the LOC as defined and agreed by both sides. There was not even a fig leaf of cover for naked aggression, and there was not even an admission by Pakistan that it was the Army that had moved in, and that it was to help to shell the road below by offering direct observation. None of that happened in Siachen.

Yes we may have lost in achieving the objectives but I'm proud that our soldiers dare to put up a bloody fight each time against an unmatched opponent and I have no doubt they will continue to do so until their objectives are met.

I wouldn't expect a loyal and patriotic Pakistani to think or act any different. If your point is to say in public that you are proud of your soldiers and of the bloody fight they put up before being killed, good for you. Now everybody knows that you are a loyal and patriotic Pakistani, and that you are proud of your soldiers. What else?

Oh, until their objectives are met.

Of course. That's 63 years and counting. Good luck. Just wake us up for the grand finale.

I stop indulging in debate with people when I realize trying to change their traditional thoughts are as difficult as making them work after superannuation..

I am working after superannuation, as it happens I'm 65+; what would you count as the age of superannuation?

Just for the record, since you aren't indulging in debate (indulging!), what was this tear-sodden post all about, then?

 

[SQ8]

Facts. Only facts.

I would be very careful with that 4 letter word. Since it is the most hypocritical of entries in the oxford dictionary.

If you minions are done with this.

All that is needed to be looked at is the conclusion given by the person who was involved in the conflict. @Joe Shearer has posted it and it defines any reasons or rhymes to dispel any coulda, shoulda woulda by both old hounds and new fanboys alike.

Sure, you can all go ahead and break your keyboards and come up with wonderful fantasies or throw "facts" like the little packets they give out at weddings; nitpicked to show it in a positive light for one end or the other.

At the end, it will only be about the lives of troops lost on both sides.. who will never know who won.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I would be very careful with that 4 letter word. Since it is the most hypocritical of entries in the oxford dictionary.

If you minions are done with this.

All that is needed to be looked at is the conclusion given by the person who was involved in the conflict. @Joe Shearer has posted it and it defines any reasons or rhymes to dispel any coulda, shoulda woulda by both old hounds and new fanboys alike.

Sure, you can all go ahead and break your keyboards and come up with wonderful fantasies or throw "facts" like the little packets they give out at weddings; nitpicked to show it in a positive light for one end or the other.

At the end, it will only be about the lives of troops lost on both sides.. who will never know who won.

After studying the Kashmir crisis for several years now, I no longer believe in 'facts'. There are so many perspectives to any question, or to any reportage, that it is no longer my belief that there can be any objective history. There is only subjective history, and a plain statement of the historiography behind that subjective history, allowing readers to correct for bias as they think fit.

When I wrote that, I wrote it with a strong sense of irony, but NOT A SINGLE READER PICKED UP ON IT until you did.

Interesting.

At the end, the history 'belongs' to those who died to make it. So true.

 

[Joe Shearer]

id rather stick with the serving army general words than an online blog. yes F-7PG wasnt there, only F-7 P but then again PAF isnt 100% F-16 force which is the basic point to be conveyed.

You are wrong on all accounts of PA planning, the planning of PA was excellent in all wars which is why Pakistan stands today and IA as a bully has been thwarted all the times. The leadership had issues which made E-Pak lose as BD in 1971.

PA saved Pakistan many a times from IA misadventures especially kicking IA in the face Rann of Kutch in early 1965 , then slapped hard across IA buttocks in the Sialkot sector in 1965, ruined IA generals completely ridiculous plans for tea in gymkhana lahore in 1965.....and the list continues.

PAF showed its might to IAF much more than PA and like i said, Kargil would have been very different had PAF been included in planning phase of Kargil. It was IAF goodluck that PAF wasnt included but its not going to happen again now.

Mate, the truth is that irregulars of PA slammed IA so hard in Kargil that IAF needed to be involved to save IA from a miserable humiliation and if PAF would have showed up, IA would have had the worst cancer of its life, for life.

So if i were you, i would thank my stars that PAF wasnt involved.

I am not he, I am I, and I want to know where you got these cock and bull stories.

1. The engagement in the Rann of Kutch gave the Pakistan Army the wrong messages and the right messages. On the debit side, the Pakistan Army was encouraged to go along with its typical of the time jingoism, for instance, the half-comic, half-serious statement that one Pakistani soldier was equal to, depending on the degree of nationalist frenzy that the speaker had worked himself into, seven or ten Indian soldiers. On the credit side, the Pakistan Army correctly concluded that the US would not argue very hard with Pakistan about misuse of MAP equipment, and they did not.
2. As far as results were concerned, Pakistan claimed 3,500 sq. kms., and was awarded a face-saving beggarly 350 sq. kms. by an arbitration tribunal. This was a thoroughly unfair award but was accepted by India as an arbitrators' award.
3. With regard to later events, Pakistan made such a shambles of its various misadventures that by itself, this sequence of events should have made people like you keep a rather discreet profile. But then, fools rush in.......
4. Are you aware that only ONE commando squad survived of the number that were smuggled in to foment mischief? That the others were slaughtered to a man.
5. Are you aware that Operation Grand Slam was a Plan B prepared by Akhtar Hussain Mallik to guard against the failure of Plan A. Nothing can speak more clearly of the assessment of the Pakistani Army leadership of the fate of Plan A, Operation Gibraltar, than the involuntary launch of Operation Grand Slam.
6. Since you talk of nothing having gone wrong with Pakistan Army planning, you should pay special attention to the farcical goings on on the field of battle, when, after operations had actually begun, Mallik was replaced by Yahya Khan, who was almost parachuted in. Fortunately for the dignity of all concerned, including those penning these words at the moment with barely-managed mirth, it was not a parachute but a helicopter, in which Yahya was suddenly implanted into 12th Corps. Do you call that, and the subsequent slubberred offensive, examples of good planning?

I really don't want to go further. Your statement is so preposterous that wasting time refuting it point by point amounts to dignifying schoolboy interventions. But if you think the point is not sufficiently made, say so.