What Pakistan Knew About Bin Laden

[Jango]

You might not know.

Well would you enlighten me to it?

If you are implying that I have no experience with higher ranks or don't know how stuff goes, then let's just end this discussion Mr I know It All!

 

[batmannow]

Well would you enlighten me to it?

If you are implying that I have no experience with higher ranks or don't know how stuff goes, then let's just end this discussion Mr I know It All!

dear, sir!
allow me to show the doors to the gentle men?
will you?

 

[Bratva]

You might not know.

There is one more factor: as an unaccountable institution lacking democratic checks and balances, these un-confirmable allegations and whisperings go with the territory. If the Pakistani Army wishes to eliminate such "unfounded" rumors, it's going to have to open itself up to more political control.

The ISI is as accountable to Civilians as CIA is to Civilians

Accused of Spying on Congress, CIA Director Tap Dances - NationalJournal.com

Sen. Feinstein: CIA Hacked Congress and Possibly 'Violated' Constitution - NationalJournal.com

Why is Feinstein so upset with the CIA?

A: Feinstein alleges a long pattern of CIA cover-ups:

—Destroying videotapes of some of the first enhanced interrogations of Sept. 11 suspects.

—Dumping millions (6.2 to be exact) of pages of electronic documents on the Senate investigators with no index or organization. ( and senators can only review 6.2 million documents at a CIA designated location)

—Secretly taking back hundreds of the pages from the document cache.

—Snooping through the Senate investigators' computers to see if they had read an internal CIA review, and accusing those investigators of viewing it illegally.

Why CIA, Senators Still Feuding Over 9/11 Secrets - ABC News

How do you spy on a spy? In the case of Senate investigators, you do it by adopting some of their methods. During the five year investigation into the CIA interrogation and detention program, members of the Senate Intelligence Committee, working in a windowless room at the spy agency’s headquarters, suspected that key documents had been removed from their computer network.

Luckily, they had a hard copy. To keep it from being destroyed, Senate sleuths spirited the document from the CIA and put it in a safe in the Hart Senate Office Building. The move set off a chain of events that broke open on the floor of the Senate on Tuesday as Sen. Dianne Feinstein, the chairwoman of the intelligence committee, accused the CIA of spying on her investigators.

The first level of oversight had failed massively. The findings from the first review initiated another one by the committee—a second attempt at oversight—which the CIA fought at every turn, according to Feinstein. They dumped an un-indexed 6.2 million documents on the Senate committee and requested that each document go through a multilevel review process before handing it over, making the investigation tedious and protracted.

As investigators waded though the documents, some of the information that had been initially provided by the CIA started to disappear from the computer network. When asked about the unauthorized removal, the CIA blamed contractors, and then said the order had come from the White House. In 2010, Feinstein had to get the White House counsel to resolve the matter and order the CIA to return the missing documents, which it did.

Not long after, documents started going missing again. This batch of ghost papers would come to be known as the “Panetta review,” referring to Leon Panetta, the former CIA director. They represented an internal summary of what had been provided to the intelligence committee. “What was unique and interesting about the internal documents was not their classification level, but rather their analysis and acknowledgment of significant CIA wrongdoing,” said Feinstein.

Dianne Feinstein, the CIA, and cover-up: The California senator accuses the agency of spying on the Senate.

 

[Solomon2]

Well would you enlighten me to it?

I'm drawing parallels from three situations I've studied, 1970s Argentina and 1970s-80s Poland and USSR.

If you are implying that I have no experience with higher ranks or don't know how stuff goes, then let's just end this discussion Mr I know It All!

I'd like to be wrong. But what confidence can Pakistanis have that what I've described isn't how the military works? Don't cite textbooks - the pro-Army propaganda's been official for fifty years! Think of the life experience of yourself and the people you know.

The ISI is as accountable to Civilians as CIA is to Civilians

Pfffffftttttt! No Pakistani legislator can do what Feinstein does, nor can Pakistan's legislature forbid the Pakistani Armed Forces from spending money the way the PAF wants it spent.

 

[Bratva]

I'm drawing parallels from three situations I've studied, 1970s Argentina and 1970s-80s Poland and USSR.

I'd like to be wrong. But what confidence can Pakistanis have that what I've described isn't how the military works? Don't cite textbooks - the pro-Army propaganda's been official for fifty years! Think of the life experience of yourself and the people you know.

Pfffffftttttt! No Pakistani legislator can do what Feinstein does, nor can Pakistan's legislature forbid the Pakistani Armed Forces from spending money the way the PAF wants it spent.

Pffffttttt,,,,Yes they Did during in camera in National Assembly. Supreme Court dragging ISI and MI every now and then clearly shows they are not holy cows as you propagandists likes to point out. Heck Your courts can dispose off the case in the name of national security. Well ISI can't do that here in Pakistan. Shows how much Judicial oversight w.r.t to "National security matters" in Pakistan exist than in America

 

[Solomon2]

Pffffttttt,,,,Yes they Did during in camera in National Assembly. Supreme Court dragging ISI and MI every now and then clearly shows they are not holy cows -

The brass were embarrassed briefly after OBL was unearthed. (You can thank the U.S. for that.) However, such scenes were mere public relations; the power structure remained unchanged. There have been no attempts to change the civilian/military power balance since 26/11 compelled Zardari to abandon his attempt to bring the ISI under democratic control.

Heck Your courts can dispose off the case in the name of national security. Well ISI can't do that here in Pakistan.

The ISI isn't subject to civilian courts! And I'm not familiar with cases in the U.S. where a court "can dispose off the case in the name of national security", so please enlighten me.

 

[notorious_eagle]

They aren't "wild assertions"; she had sources. That's enough for a story; it doesn't have to be "truth". Though if you suspect the sources were fictional, complain to the editor of the NYT, then other U.S. newspapers. Please! NYT reporters have been caught doing such things before.

Without political control subordinate officers have great freedom to interpret superiors' orders creatively. Remember, Pakistani politicians not only cannot appoint generals below COAS, more importantly they cannot remove bad apples. That means Pakistan's armed forces form an unaccountable polity of their own, with room for deception, personal agendas, alliances, back-stabbing, plots, and betrayals. Even if the COAS and ISI chief give orders, they doesn't mean they will be carried out in the intended fashion, nor can they easily remove suspect subordinates without a clear paper trail or evident chain of responsibility, lest they threaten cutting away their own support that pushed them to the top, or the effectiveness of their own command. In short, in a military oligarchy, orders may come from above, but legitimacy comes from below.

I was going to reply to your post but than i read this, so now i am going to refrain replying. It is quite clear of how little you know of how the Pakistan Military Machine works, but are pretending to be an expert on Pakistan's Armed Forces. If the lower level Officers engage in actions like these, they face court martial. Discipline is something where the Pakistan Armed Forces don't dick around, they take disciple very seriously.

II'd like to be wrong. But what confidence can Pakistanis have that what I've described isn't how the military works? Don't cite textbooks - the pro-Army propaganda's been official for fifty years! Think of the life experience of yourself and the people you know.

Because these Pakistanis have served in the Armed Forces or have direct family members who serve in it. They have seen how the Army as an institution works first hand because they have spend most of their lives in cantonments or Cadet Colleges. They certainly know a lot more than an American sitting 5000 miles away browsing the Internet or a reporter from NYT who writes articles on Pakistan Army from her home in New York.

The ISI isn't subject to civilian courts! And I'm not familiar with cases in the U.S. where a court "can dispose off the case in the name of national security", so please enlighten me.

This tells me how ignorant you are Son. Google up what is happening right now, how the Supreme Court is dragging the ISI and other Intelligence Agencies through the dirt.

 

[GURU DUTT]

well pakistan always knew about bin laden (here i mean the ISI)

how can one think that any one can remain hidden until those in command dont want him to be hidden

how can one buy land in fictitous name and make a palatial complex with and architecture mirroring a secret location just a few hundred meteres from a millitarry acedemy and in a garrison town which is considered as resting place after retierment of all the major generals of pakistani fauj

looks like its time that pakistan is accepting its mistake so as it gets a loins share of wpons which USA and NATO will leave behind after dec 2014 but will USA be too kind to pakistani demands and aid generating tacticks remains to be seen

 

[Bratva]

The brass were embarrassed briefly after OBL was unearthed. (You can thank the U.S. for that.) However, such scenes were mere public relations; the power structure remained unchanged. There have been no attempts to change the civilian/military power balance since 26/11 compelled Zardari to abandon his attempt to bring the ISI under democratic control.

The ISI isn't subject to civilian courts! And I'm not familiar with cases in the U.S. where a court "can dispose off the case in the name of national security", so please enlighten me.

Jeez How ignorant are you or you selectively believe reality? Does your Military intel falls under the jurisdiction of Department of defense or department of Homeland security?

Zardari wanted to bring ISI under Ministry of Interior jurisdiction. An ignorant and foolish attempt? How Does moving ISI control from Ministry of defense to Ministry of Interior bring ISI under democratic control when both Defense and interior is being handled by civilians themselves? Let me say ISI is as accountable to Judiciary and democratic rulers as CIA is to WHite house and Senate intelligence committe

Notorious eagle has replied your second rant sufficiently

well pakistan always knew about bin laden (here i mean the ISI)

how can one think that any one can remain hidden until those in command dont want him to be hidden

how can one buy land in fictitous name and make a palatial complex with and architecture mirroring a secret location just a few hundred meteres from a millitarry acedemy and in a garrison town which is considered as resting place after retierment of all the major generals of pakistani fauj

looks like its time that pakistan is accepting its mistake so as it gets a loins share of wpons which USA and NATO will leave behind after dec 2014 but will USA be too kind to pakistani demands and aid generating tacticks remains to be seen

How CIA didn't knew 9/11 bombers getting flying lessons in America? Why didn't they notify FBI suspected persons has arrived in America who planning to do a mass terrorist act when they were following these persons from malaysia since 2000?

 

[GURU DUTT]

How CIA didn't knew 9/11 bombers getting flying lessons in America? Why didn't they notify FBI suspected persons has arrived in America who planning to do a mass terrorist act when they were following these persons from malaysia since 2000?

well bhai mistakes tohappen

but ever thought why dint any big thing happen in USA after 9/11

lolzzz bhai thing is USA is paying the bills for pakistan for long specialli there armed forces and now pakistanies have deloped an habit to live on "help" more than strenthing there economy

thing is bhai its very painfull but its very true eiother way you see it

CIA is the master and if you will paly with them then they will come after you period

pakistan had a choice between taliban and USA they chose to paly a double game and all these drone strikes , balck water , kerry lugar bill and rais like that on may 2nd 2011 are part and parsel of the same thing

DONT MESS WITH USA THINKING YOU ARE OVER SMART

please dont take my remarks in bad taste try to think about it world is not a fair place might is right when muslims were power full they got away witth making minaretts owt of there enmies heads now its the western nation who are power full and they will do what they can either make yourself strong enof and command respect like chian or keep this attitude of denail and conspiracy theori uits not ging to harm any one but pakistan and pakistanies >>>>> GOD LUCK

 

[pakdefender]

hell hath no fury like a woman scorned

 

[jaunty]

Incompetence or complicity. Which one would you go for? I'd go for the latter. Either way the US had no choice but to take him out without informing Pakistan.

 

[pakdefender]

Incompetence or complicity; that's the question. Which one would you go for? I'd go for the latter.

go with red heads with perky tits in tight tee-shirts got bin laden as they showed in zero dark thirty